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A study of Naval Air Defense versus Bombers

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by vingrjoe, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    I thought I'd do some testing and try to figure out why a certain ship in a stack is picked out first when the fleet is bombed and what role Air Defense values play in this. In the editor, I took a Destroyer and Aegis cruiser and assigned them equal values to have a base. I then adjusted a single value at a time on the control ship. Here are my findings.

    First off, the Air Defense value. This works like regular combat. When a bomber goes to bombard a ship, the ships Air Defense value acts like an attack value, and is checked against the bombers defense. So, the standard combat formula applies, Attackers Attack Value[ship's Air Defense Strength] divided by (Attackers Attack Strength+Defenders Defense Strength). If the bomber makes it through the Air Defense of the target ship, then the Bomber's Bombardment Value is checked against the Ship's Defensive Strength. Again, the standard combat formula applies. If the bombardment ROF is 4, then I'm assuming each volley is checked against the ships Defensive Strentgh to see if each volley makes it through or not.

    Now regarding vessels. Two scenarios apply. One is where the ships are stacked, and the other is where the ships are side by side or close together. In the case of the stacked ships, the HP Bonus and Defense Strength are the factors. If one ship has one point more than another ship with 2 greater points of defense strength, the HP bonus is the deciding factor and the ship with the HP bonus is hit first. But, if the other ship's defense value is high enough, it overides the HP bonus on the other ship, and the ship with the greatest defense strength gets hit first. The game apparently has some sort of ratio parameters here. HP bonus seems to trump defensive strength until the defensive strength reaches a certain ratio against the HP bonus. EXAMPLE: one ship has 2 HP bonus, but another ship's defensive strength is say, 10 points higher than the ship with the HP bonus.
    The other scenario where ships aren't stacked but are close to each other. In this intsance the defense value and the cost of the ship are the factors. I tested this out. I had the destroyer and cruiser at equal values across the board, but I made the destroyer cost 1 shield above the cruiser. The destroyer was hit first. I then bumped up the destroyer's defense values quite a bit. This resulted in the cruiser being hit first. So, when ships are close to each other and not stacked, the bombers will go after the ship with the lowest defensive value and the highest build cost. Again, I believe the game has some sort of ratio parameters it follows here.

    One thing I did notice about stacked ships. If you have a ship that has the most hit points and highest defense, but it's marked as a king unit. All the other ships will take the hits and sink before your "king" ship is hit. I noticed this while playing El Justo's TCW scenario. I marked some unbuildable ships as king units so they could be upgraded later with newer technolgies. This aspect is somewhat realstic. The capital ship (Carrier or Battleship) is usually escorted by smaller ships. In an air attack, the smallers ships(especially modern ones) would be the vanguards for air-defense and presumably receive the first hits.

    Anyways, I hope this information is useful to some, if not many. I found these results interesting and wanted to share them. If I am wrong about any of these conclusions, please feel free to correct me, and share your findings.
     
  2. Colonel Kraken

    Colonel Kraken Deity

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    You should put this in the tutorial section before it's lost off the first page. :)
     
  3. Bluemofia

    Bluemofia F=ma

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    I've done this with king units for land. The workers even go to take hits for them.
     
  4. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Civ3 Modding Archivist

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    I'm delighted to see someone else doing this sort of testing! :goodjob: -- great stuff, Vingrjoe.

    -Oz
     
  5. Bjornlo

    Bjornlo Deity

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    Vingrjoe,
    Thanks for sharing. I really like this sort of testing and the information that is derived from it.
     
  6. black_rose

    black_rose Warlord

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    Nice findings!

    Q: Do king ships act the same as other king units in all other ways as well?

    Oh, and are you really showing oz' avatar crossed out there? ;)
     
  7. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    I'm not sure how King units act. I don't do any type of regicide. I merely mark them as kings if it is a pre-placed, unbuildable unit, that I want to be able to upgrade. Also, I haven't played against the AI with similar 'King' units.

    Yes, it is oz' avatar. But it was nothing personal against him. I found it on a website, and thought it was funny.
     
  8. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    I just thought of something regarding flagging certain units as Kings. I remember playing a game awhile ago and I had two Aegis cruisers escorting each of my battleships. Now, as some of you know, the Aegis cruiser's original primary role is anti-air. Anyway, when bombers would come, they would hit the battleships first, since my BBs had higher defense and hit points than my cruisers. What would frustrate me, is that my Aegis cruisers would have the higher anit-air defense, but they wouldn't get to engage the bombers first. Now to my point, flagging my capital ships as King units, causes my Aegis cruisers to engage the enemy bombers first. That's just what I wanted to happen. The down side is, the Aegis (at least in my game) have less hit points than my battleships, and thus are destroyed easier.
     
  9. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    hey vingrjoe...i completely missed this thread why is it that i'm always missing your threads? lol

    anyways, i have 3 comments on your analyses.

    the AI does indeed go after the larger HP vessels when they pick bomb targets. i've seen it repeatedly in TCW. they'll always nail (if they get through the wicked US air defense) the vessel w/ the highest HP bonus. always.

    the AI does this w/ land targets as well. i recently had some Tu 95 Bears show up in the Rhineland area and pelt my Corps units while there were many other units w/in the stack.

    re your frustrating AEGIS Cruisers
    maybe flagging it w/ Zone of Control would vault it to the front (to provide the desired air defense)? not sure if this would work w/ sea units but i thought that this could work.
     
  10. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    Thanks for the info El Justo, I'll try the zone of control and report back.
     
  11. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    I did some more testing. Zone of control has no bearing on Air Defense.

    Regarding the HP bonus factor. As El Justo confirmed, and I stated earlier, when ships are stacked, the bombers will go for the ship with the most HP.

    Unless another ship has a high enough defense strength difference.



    ShipA HP Bonus
    1
    2
    3
    4
    5

    ShipB Required Defense Strength Increase above ShipA
    +7
    +14
    +20
    +27
    +34

    Looking at the chart above,ship A with a HP bonus of one will take the hits first. That is, unless shipB of equal or lesser HP has a Defense Strength 7 points higher than shipA with 1 HP bonus. If shipA has 2 HP bonus, then shipB would need to have a defense of 14 points above ship A's defense strength. It seems the ratio would be 1:7, with the exception of 3HP bonus. That is, for every HP bonus shipA has, shipB would need an additional 7 points per HP point above ShipA's defense strength. To engage Bombers first.
    I only went to five because I'm assuming the ratio would stay the same.
     
  12. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    wow vingrjoe, that's some neat stuff. why 7 i wonder?

    no dice on the ZOC thingie, huh?

    i guess it's sort of realistic that the AI goes after the NJ in TCW (w/ the extra HPs and beefy D).
     
  13. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    Yes, but if you flag it as a King unit so it can be upgraded to the modern Iowa, the missile cruisers will do their job. I agree a BB or CVN would be the main target for an attack, but the DDGs and CGs/CGNs should engage the air threats first, soley because they are equipped better for anit-air defense, at least IRL.
     
  14. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    iirc, if the units are stacked, the AA stat comes into play for each unit of said stack; not just the targeted unit w/ the highest HP or the one w/ at least 7 more in D.

    i say this b/c i notice a huge shift in AI behaviour when i have the DDGs/CGs/CGNs w/in the stack. IOW, the bears won't show up at all when the really strong AA veseels are present.

    the same goes for units on land w/ the M42 Dusters. the bears steer clear of my Corps units when out in the open and escorted by the Dusters.
     
  15. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    vingrjoe,

    This is very interesting. What you mention about the "king" ship
    is new info for me.

    I have done several experiments with air versus ship-AA.
    They show that its no point stacking more than 4 naval units
    with regard to AA-impact.

    Will probably resume these experiments soon.

    Rocoteh
     
  16. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    El Justo, I have wondered about that point you mentioned, about the AAA defense of all ships working. So, correct me if I'm wrong, as I understand you, and what I've observed , it seems despite whatever ship is attacked first, all of the ships Air-Defense engage , no matter what ship is being attacked ? I wonder if it is cumlative ? Say you have a ship with Air Defense of 10, and another with Air Defense of 5, so would the actual air defense of the stack be 15 versus each bomber ? I'll have to try this.


    P.S. IOW ????
     
  17. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    vingrjoe,

    i'm not sure which vessel's AA # vaults to the front w/ regard to the attacking/bombing enemy air units. i'm guessing that it's the unit which is being targeted by the AI or more specifically, the unit w/ the most +HP or the one w/ at least 7 more in D.

    anyhow, i usually take absolutely no chances when i'm moving my transport convoys. i'll make sure that i have at least a half dozen DDs/DDGs, etc w/in the stack.

    AAA success seems to improve when i insert a vessels or vessels w/ high AA #s. however, i can not pinpoint exactly how it works.

    IOW = in other words

    Rocoteh and i had done some testing on this in the early days of TCW testing and results varied greatly.

    one such report i've compiled recently was a stack (my huge Atlantic Convoy) of sea vessels (a few loaded CVNs, some DDGs & a few DDs) vs the dreaded Tu95 sorties. of the 10 sorties attempted, 7 were shot down by either the AA or the aircraft that i set to air superiority.
     
  18. vingrjoe

    vingrjoe Landlocked Shipwright

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    Rocoteh, my latest test results seem to agree with you. It appears that any more than 4 ships for AAA Defense doesn't make a difference. I did a test with 1 Aegis versus 10 bombers, then I increased the Aegis ships to two, then four then 8 and kept the bomber count the same. The kill ratio increased when I went from one ship to two, and then from two ships to four. Then, when I increased the ship count to six and eight, the kill count levelled off from the four ship kill count.

    It seems that each ship can engage more than one time. I'm not sure if each time a bomber attacks if each ship's (max 4 ships) Air Defense is checked against the bomber or what. Seeing how the kill ratio increases when more ships are added, I would assume that's how it works.
     
  19. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    vingrjoe,

    Yes, I agree.
    I intend to do some experiments the coming days on air versus
    ship-AA.

    There is need for a special section on how AI works.

    Threads like this, which I regard as very interesting are often drowned
    after some days.

    Rocoteh
     
  20. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    i second that ;)

    a stickied "AI Behaviour/Trends" thread would be invaluable.

    testing results and %'s, all of that stuff is great.
     

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