A study of Naval Air Defense versus Bombers

[vingrjoe]

I recently just had some new observations. This doesn't apply to Air Defense, but to naval or any type of bombardment. Now some, or most of you may or may not know the following. It seems that anytime a 'volley' or 'salvo' makes it thru during a bombardment, no matter what the bombardment strength, the targeted unit only takes one hit point of damage per successful 'salvo'. When I use salvo or volley I'm referring to a single unit in the ROF (Rate of Fire) category. An example would be, say, a cruiser has a bombardment ROF of 4, that obviously means, that it fires 4 salvos or volleys. Now, the only thing the Bombardment Strength factor affects is how many salvos get to hit the target if they make it past the combat calculations. Bombardment works just like any other attack. The bombardment strength is checked against the targeted unit's defense strength, and then, each successful salvo takes away one HP each. So, if my cruiser has a Bombardment strength of 10 and a ROF of 4, and the targeted unit has a defense of 3, the standard combat calculation applies, (10)/(10+3)=0.7692. I then multiply 0.7692 times my ROF of 4 and get 3.076. So, roughly 3 out of the 4 salvos will hit the targeted unit.

 

[El Justo]

yes vingrjoe. that is what i've been led to believe. also, i've noticed that certain bombardment #s are clearly inferior to several mech unit (in TCW). we're re-working some of these #s b/c they just can't get past that stacked or uneven combat calculation (MBTs in particular w/ high 30s and upward D).

 

[vingrjoe]

I was thinking of bringing up that concern regarding armor defense #'s, but I didn't want to criticize too much. I think it's a great scenario, but my bombers, fighter/bombers, battleships and cruiser don't seem to chew thru the armor very effectively. An example is, say you have 6 stacked apcs with defense strength of 30 (I think that's what a few are rated at in TCW) in a metropolis on plains. The metropolis gives a 100% defense bonus and the plains give a 10% defense bonus. So, those stacked APCS each have a cumlative defense of 63 apiece. One of my SAGs with a battleship with the blitz ability can't even chew thru those. Again, I may change my own scenario, but I believe that would require alot of time and balancing.

 

[El Justo]

I was thinking of bringing up that concern regarding armor defense #'s, but I didn't want to criticize too much. I think it's a great scenario, but my bombers, fighter/bombers, battleships and cruiser don't seem to chew thru the armor very effectively. An example is, say you have 6 stacked apcs with defense strength of 30 (I think that's what a few are rated at in TCW) in a metropolis on plains. The metropolis gives a 100% defense bonus and the plains give a 10% defense bonus. So, those stacked APCS each have a cumlative defense of 63 apiece. One of my SAGs with a battleship with the blitz ability can't even chew thru those. Again, I may change my own scenario, but I believe that would require alot of time and balancing.

by all means vingrjoe, we encourage constructive criticsism.

we had been looking at aircraft in particular for the ones that were 'lacking' in bombardment success. i had already altered the arty pieces for the MP version we've been playing w/ recently. they encountered the same exact problems (unbale to get thru the calculator). IOW, it seems several of the 'low-balled' bombardment values are in air, arty and possibly the naval units.

so, you raise another good point regarding bombradment success.

 

[vingrjoe]

I was running more tests, seeing how the AI would use units in regards to bombardment. In these tests, I was using ships. It acts very strange, the AI that is. If a unit has low attack and low HP, but a high bombardment, the AI will be more willing to use that unit's bombardment ability. If that same unit has a high attack,and/or high HP, and high bombardment, then the AI seems less likely to use that unit's bombardment, but rather send it charging into battle. If the units has blitz, and uses a few moves for combat, and loses some health, then it appears the AI will start using said unit's bombardment ability. I also had some land units on the coastline. In all tests the AI's ships ignored my land units, even after it destroyed my naval units.

 

[El Justo]

hmmm...that's interesting.

especially the theory that the lower-stat units engage in bombardment first.

the ironic thing about all of this is the lack of coastal bombardment by the big guns; even after the fact that the human-controlled sea units were gone.

i like that the damaged big guns switch front direct combat to bombardment.

 

[El Justo]

vingrjoe,

i know this isn't air vs. naval but i think it deserves to be noted; especially w/ regard to how the AI reacts (or doesn't react)...

in my personal TCW game, i've experienced a variety of different results in the air war, particularly in mainland europe.

it seems that the human player must 'clear the path' of AA defenses if they wish to have their bombers reach their targets. by this i mean that the first wave of human sorties must be performed by the fighter/bomber aircraft that possess high A/D values. you send these aircraft (f14s, f15s & f16s in general) in for the 1st wave and the AI usually (almost always actually) has an aircraft waiting to intercept you. however, the A/D combat calculations come into play again and 9 times out of 10 (roughly), these interceptors are shot down. thus in one turn, the human player can essentially decimate the AI intercept force.

once this is accomplished, the lower A/D ground support/attack aircraft are sent in as the second wave. they now have the 'clear path' and encounter almost no resistance (interceptors) at all. siginificant damage can be done to the AI w/ the A10s.

the third wave consists of the buff'ers and it is needless to say what they can accomplish. w/ no real AA defgense left over for the AI, they're at the mercy of the bombardment calculator and in general, it's not too kind to them b/c of the really, really high bombardment #s of the american bombers.

the fourth wave could consist of the attack helis. they also possess nasty bombardment #s but they also have 0A/3D and if the human player hasn't 'cleared the path' yet, the apaches are immediately shot down.

is this an exploit? i don't know for sure. it's definitely a process though in that the human player must follow this specific course or they risk complete destruction of their air force.

this all has me wondering why the AI won't send AAA w/ their deployed mech and foot units; especially when they're out in the open.

 

[vingrjoe]

I'm in agreement with you El Justo, on how to 'pave' the way for bombers. I don't feel this is an exploit. I feel it's realistic. A person must gain air superiority before you can send in low Defense bombers.

I was wondering, is an interceptor allowed to interecept only once per turn ?

 

[El Justo]

is an interceptor allowed to interecept only once per turn?

yes, i believe so.

another note is that i haven't seen any AI AAA in any of the cities i've bombed/captured. maybe an across-the-board reduction in prices is in order. i know i use them. the patriot batteries are straight nasty. haven't seen a bear in europe in quite some time.

 

[FinnMcCool]

*bump*

Now all I have to do is think of at least 4 more characters to put in this bump, in order for this reply to make it past the forumbots...

Hm. Four characters... hm... Hey! I know!

#$%@

 

[El Justo]

more info on aerial bombardments

it seems that the first target or unit that receives damage from aerial sorties is always air units. is this normal? i mean, does the regular/epic civ game operate like this?

for example:
i'll run a bombing mission over an enemy city. my bomber gets 'through' the bombardment calculator and damage is inflicted. however, it is always inflicted upon grounded air units that are not fortified. also, the lethal land flag has nothing to do with it. air units w/out this flag are still capable of completely destroying enemy air units.

 

[vingrjoe]

El Justo, I have observed that as well. It can be an aircraft or ship or even possibly land arty(haven't tried that yet), but everytime I hit a city ,the aircraft are the first to go, and die, no matter if the attacking unit has lethal bombardment or not. I can't recall about port cities though, whether any ships anchored in the city take hits before the aircraft based in that city.

 

[vbraun]

I can't recall about port cities though, whether any ships anchored in the city take hits before the aircraft based in that city.

They do. Play the WWII in the Pacific Conquest as the US on the highest aggression level. You will lose half of your ships in Honolulu.