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A suggestion for multiplayers and scenarios

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Multiplayer & PBEM' started by Cassius Critzer, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer Chieftain

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    A huge amount of time is wasted in the beginning of many scenarios as they were not designed for relatively rapid play. On the other hand, most people that are interested and able to play multiplayer want to do so to fight and contend with human players through diplomacy, joking around, and military strength. I seriously doubt multiplayers want to send 15 turns developing infrastructure and trade networks and the like.

    So the solution is to create a more built up stable economy and therefore a robust military can be put in play right away. That is far different from the standard scenario as the AI is merciless and would annhilate the human player and other tribes by hurling everything all at once since those military assets are available and the economy will support it.

    This is rather why nuclear ICBMs and the AI does not work because a human would hesitate but an AI doesn't give a care. Most scenarios are designed to play with up to eight tribes with the barbarians being one of them, thus the build up is horribly slow.

    Part of what I am currently working on is establishing such a resource rich environment for a Sengoku Jidai scenario. I'm talking about huge numbers of diverse units and numbers of samurai leading up to Sekigahara...that's 200,000 samurai being depicted in a scaled manner that proportionate. That is very different than having basic asigaru spearmen in turn one.

    At the onset, I would think each side would have at least have a hundred units of various abilities such than war is tempting but problematic to deploy without another player subsequently attacking the initiator's now defenseless cities. This creates genuine tension and escalation and probes and manuevering hubs of soldiers so they can readily and dynamically alter the plans.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  2. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer Chieftain

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    I'm very close to finishing an updated version based on Sengoku Jidai 2.0 for MGE. I added in the maximum of units but more importantly added in four army types. This eliminates the stack error as you have extremely strong units plus individual units.

    So far I created 28 cities for each of the seven clans leaving lots of extra for the rest that mostly means battling the Mori, the Takeda on what truly was Chokusabe territory (Tosa), then LOTS of room in technically in the sphere of influence under the Uesugi way to the Northeast.

    The movement rate is highly realistic at three seasons per year and begins in 1448 through 1650 but propbably would take an extra century to crush the Uesugi and have all 255 cities.

    It should be excellent for multiplayer as you now would have Wako pirates plus Atakabune versus the standard two ships.

    But that means 400-600 turns minimum with 900 possible.

    I think the multiplayers will like the armies. One could just populate huge numbers say by 1600 with massive individual units and ten kinds of armies for each seven players with all the infrastructure full complete so you have both standard and gunpowder units effectively wageing total war in central Japan. Meanwhile the Shimazu way to the SW and the Uesugi to the NE greedily wait to pounce on the weakened survivors of Sekigahara. Or...the clans in central Japan eliminate these two and temporarily ally and then attack each other.

    That would be 3 seasons times 50 years or 150 turns. It takes time to plan all the fleets and individual units to use up the armies' movement rates and whittle down their strengths and manuever to get them in a less defensible battlefield as by then the citadels are incredibly defensive if multiple armies are within.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  3. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer Chieftain

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    I'm looking for input from multiplayers so when a multiplayer friendly version is finished, it has the kinds of things you military strategists and tacticians desire.

    Jidaigeki 1.0 is not ready yet. It's at the alpha stage about 0.85. The beta version will work but the the nine levels of Bushido acquired technology will fire appropriate positive and negative effects like reducing the treasury and spawning helpful company level units and robust Defender and Attacker class battalions.

    This means I need input on balancing issues that both challenge other players based on their start positions as well as facilitate their success as that Bushido tech gives them the edge to cause serious harm and mayhem to other samurai clans.

    I also want to help by having proper fortresses being being logically prebuilt based on a start date of 1448, 1572, and 1600. That means logical unit composition as well.

    Ninja and cannon are squad strength.
    Cavalry units are possibly platoon strength.
    Most units are company strength (100 samurai)
    Defender, Attacker, and Army class are very strong and diverse battalions of about 650 samurai.
    The Imperial/Shogunate Army is a regiment of a 1000 samurai. They are very strong and yet suffer terrible calculated HP loss against stacked battalions with high defensive values on heavily defensive terrain and worse in fortresses on heavily defensive terrain, and very rough in a citadel. You don't waste them but obviously try to fight in the field where your opponent erred on their stopping point and ended up in plains or grassland.

    These battalions and regiments are mixed units of offensive and defensive,infantry and cavalry, and their attributes and movement and defense, attack, HP, and FP take this all into account. The beta testers will determine if the levels are appropriate and challenging enough. I think they are but I have tunnel vision as I've been working on this so long.

    If you are a past multiplayer and want to beta test, let me know. We may start doing so in ten days. You likely will think, "What the heck was Cassius thinking?" as you play as the values are so high. In fact, it seems to work fine albeit it is extremely rough on the highest level.

    With everything prebuilt, including a robust economy and hundreds or even thousands of diverse units, then multiplayers should have more fun using deployment to move every chess piece around, plan your naval strategy, plan your probes and necessary road improvements to get there, and make new recruits. Much of the micromanagement will be removed so you can PLAY.

    The plan is to set up scenarios so maybe have 50 turns for a period. There are three seasons so 16 years. I encourage your input. Later when released I want multiplayers to create alternative versions.

    If I can find a dedicated mapper to create Okinawa(Ryukyu) and Korea (Joseon), and some artists to make Ming, Joseon, and Mongol units, then many versions will act as prequels and sequels. These will largely be for multiplayer to show the early Mongol invasions and the Imjin War. There's no logical way to get allied computer players to work together and keep working together ie a "locked alliance".

    That means if has to be multiplayer, I think. Or else nonhistorical Japan versus the Mongols or a Japan versus the Ming/Joseon. There could be either a historical Imjin War or an irritated Ming dynasty launches a massive counter invasion using Korean turtle ships which historically crushed the samurai at sea.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Myeongnyang

    It's possible in 1597, that after Admiral Yi Sun-sin's stunning naval victory that a counter invasion could have taken place.

    You have to launch it with CivUnlimited as the map is large and the unit amounts are higher than vanilla Civ 2. PM me if interested.

    The goal was to make a scenario that was fun and difficult from turn 1. You still can grow and build cities, but I figured you wanted BATTLES both in the field using manuvering and tactics and sieges. Sieges are ROUGH as they should be. Sieges result in thousands of samurai deaths. You need the late Army battalion or the Imperial regiment and still will be very costly. Invaders need double strength for regiments facing Defender class battalions as the AI stacks LOTS of them. Or invaders need THRICE the Attacker class battalions to gain the citadels.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  4. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer Chieftain

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    Multiplayers used to intense tactics may determine it's better to eliminate now obsolete earlier company class units like weak yari ashigaru (level 1-3) and have a mixed joint unit of say 100 nagamaki veteran defenders that are superb with 100 impetous no daci samurai level 3. The latter are intense attackers but with lower hitpoints as they are fearless and take risks. Thus a combined unit representing 200 samurai might be a great new unit. Or mixed cavalry that represents 50 heavy cavalry level 3 with 50 cavalry archers level 3. This would add quite a diversity of units at very numbers. Stacking becomes a relic of the past.

    Multiplayers could determine what ideal units they wanted and then those would be configured versus the standard for the single player game.

    I think there is a lot of merit to such unit composition versus one swordsman takes on one cavalry unit in personal combat as that is the current paradigm.

    Say you were doing an ancient Rome mod. Then you wanted to show hastati in the first line, backed by princeps, and a third line of veteran triarii. Well that could be a unit, not three units.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019

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