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A Touch of Nostalgia - a Purity Specialist Economy guide

Discussion in 'CivBE - Strategy & Tips' started by GAGA Extrem, Oct 16, 2015.

  1. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    Academies start slower but have higher potential and they are more consistent (because you don't need to rely on the AI to get Student Aid). The main reason why AU specialists work is the low game timer - the game usually ends before Academies are able to truly shine.

    They also work perfectly fine without Knowledge - in fact, the +1 virtue yield is so weak that you shouldn't even bother picking it. The left side with -10% leaf tech cost is *much* better (and Industry is still more powerful because of the early game momentum).

    Also Food isn't an issue. Just centralize all your TRs in the capital and convert food there, this should give you ~20 extra food per TR - more than enough to work all tiles you want and to sill grow your cities rapidly.
     
  2. Dactyl

    Dactyl Chieftain

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    I tried this on Apollo difficulty. I didn't get very far before I started suffering from lack of military units. In one game, Reynaldo declared war on me on turn 62. In the others that I experimented with, one or two civs declared war on me around turn 100. So my question is, when do you build military, because you're going to need them?
     
  3. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    You build military whenever you need it. The AI is pretty obvious with potential aggression, so it shouldn't be too hard to establish a decent force before it attacks.
     
  4. Rokdog

    Rokdog Chieftain

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    Thanks for answering my questions, folks. I realized the answer to my question about the colonist/trade unit order about 15 turns in /blush. I'm almost glad I don't have access to the Electromagnetic Sensor. As overpowered as some of the Artifact Rewards are, that sounds like slapping down "Here be broken game elements" signs all over the map.

    I played through and enjoyed the strategy. My execution was really sloppy: misclicks, mashing 'End Turn', failing to escort a crucial colonist, failing to summon a new Earth Settler every turn. Not a single AI took Student Aid either! >< So... I finished in the early 200's. I did learn a lot however and plan on bumping the difficulty and trying again. Few more questions if anyone's willing to pick them up:

    1) Without an EM Sensor, what would your pick be?

    2) How do you protect early TRs from aliens roaming over them? .I don't aggro the aliens early on, but even "green", they will move over a civilian unit "accidentally" attacking it. Do you use the Ultrasonic Fence quest to make TRs immune?

    3) I've seen you mention routing TRs to the capital a few times now, but in my one game so far that wasn't always an option. For example, City 3 was just as close to the Capital as City 2 was, but the Capital wasn't in City 3's list of available TRs. What am I missing?

    I'm trying to read between the lines and learn not just how to copycat a successful strat, but the reasoning behind WHY it's a successful strat so I can make smarter decisions during play. I'm in awe of some of you guys who make Apollo seem easy. Thanks in advance!
     
  5. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I agree with Roxlimn. All peaceful strategies are going to want Bionics for the Institute tech. All peaceful strategies are going to involve at least some culture/food/science conversion. I think the question is where the extra science comes from: academies, specialists, other, or none?

    My PAC game went well enough: t151 PL Victory. This approach (with a stronger sponsor) will almost certainly get Supremacy victories in the 130s on Standard speed, with a little luck. There were no academies and very little science conversion here. I've sold many science buildings, so BPT is lower than it could be.

    Spoiler :




    Note: The AI is so slow that I have my worst Affinity ahead of the best AI's (Barre's 11 Harmony). Also I'll finish the Beacon in 2-turns. So I could win every single peaceful VC before the AI wins a single one. Rebalancing time?
     
  6. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    1) Without an EM Sensor, what would your pick be?

    Tectonic Scanner and Continental Surveyor are both very strong. I usually chose Tectonic.

    2) How do you protect early TRs from aliens roaming over them? .I don't aggro the aliens early on, but even "green", they will move over a civilian unit "accidentally" attacking it. Do you use the Ultrasonic Fence quest to make TRs immune?

    Try to put cities in locations where the first few routes are safe - usually land routes are better. If you play completely peacefully the aliens will avoid trade units, I think. Later the Fence quest.

    3) I've seen you mention routing TRs to the capital a few times now, but in my one game so far that wasn't always an option. For example, City 3 was just as close to the Capital as City 2 was, but the Capital wasn't in City 3's list of available TRs. What am I missing?

    Only one link is allowed between two cities. If A -> B then no route is possible from B -> A.
     
  7. MAMoob

    MAMoob Chieftain

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    I wouldn't go as far as saying that ALL peaceful strategies need institutes/specialists or whatever. If you specialize in spies you can easily be stealing 500+ science per turn quite early, at which point prioritizing your own science output seems moot. This only trully shines with an agreement from ARC however, or if you're ARC yourself. You can also get quite a lot of science from agreements and station TRs if you're lucky.
     
  8. Rokdog

    Rokdog Chieftain

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    That was quick, thanks Olodune! I'm studying your screenshots, gleaning every bit that I can, mostly about city placement. Is that Standard speed? Very impressive if so.
     
  9. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Standard speed, yeah. I've played a few Civ games in the past :lol: BE city micromanagement is very similar to Civ 5 micro, but much harder to learn from the game's interface.
     
  10. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

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    You do need Student Aid to make it work, so Specialist Economy is less consistent. I'm not so sure Academies have higher potential.

    Each science building you gain gets you more tech and more stuff. Nanopastures + Institutes is already 6x2. With something as cheap as Xenonurseries, you're getting 7 effective Science tiles per city. If you're not even getting 4 science a pop, you're setting an underpowered Academy with worker, tile, tech, and energy dependencies against just an agreement and some buildings you were going to build(buy) anyway.

    Bear in mind that as the game develops, the health cap essentially goes away, and you can always found more cities if you need more science tiles. You won't need to expand the borders at all. Or even really develop the tiles. Just feed it food and buy the science slots. 8 pop in the mid game is nothing.

    Against Barre's Student Aid-powered 5-science Specialists? fuhgeddaboudit. Your 3 science Academies will never catch up.
     
  11. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    (1) Tectonic Scanner. If you can settle next to Titanium - it's by far the most powerful ressource tile.

    (2) Find out from which direction the aliens approach, then place your free Marine (from the "founding a city" quest) one tile in front of the trade route. The Zone of Control prevents the alien from just walking on the TR and if they get to close for comfort you can use city bombarment + attack to remove the buggers.

    (3) You can only establish one TR between each pair of cities (since the resources given go both ways). Miasma blocks tiles for Trade Units and all cities where the game cannot establish a path through explored tiles will not appear in the potential target list for your TRs.

    Well, the thing is that Scientist slots are quite limited, while you can employ everyone on Academy tiles (if you have enough tiles to build them - which currently isn't the case).

    Also I don't think that Student Aid is mandatory. It's really good, but not essential. Capital Food Conversion works well enough.
     
  12. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Chieftain

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    Actually, it feels like it is. Without Student Aid, each slot is essentially like Academies on Snow. Ever tried doing that? It's... not as good. By the time you're on your 6th Scientist, you're eating a 12 food deficit - equivalent to 3 Biowell's worth of food, and 6 or more tiles worth of excess food.

    In addition, getting Student Aid allows you to use Cloning Plant as a Grower Specialist with something like an effective 7 food tile! Mass Digester gives you 4 more such tiles if you think the tech is worth it. Let's assume that you're spamming Biowells for food. How effective is your Food Conversion? Is it worth getting Organics for Mass Digester as Barre in order to set up your food source better?

    Assume you were using Farms before with OLD Ectogenesis Pod. +3 food base, 12 pop food capital. generously, 8 Grassland tiles, all farmed. Net surplus is +15 food. And it uses 8 of 11 possible citizens, allowing 3 other tiles to be used. With only 5 citizens in Barre's Student Aid Mass Digester/Cloning Plant setup, you're already looking at +25 surplus, with 6 more pop - twice the excess you had with OLD Ectopod, and you could still be using that to work Biowells. Food Conversion? Why? Mass Dig+Cloning Plant (from Genetic Design) is totally worth it. Arguably, go for Organics first since Mass Dig gives you more slots.

    And you could still Food-Convert on top of all that.
     
  13. sugerdady87

    sugerdady87 Chieftain

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    I disagree that student aid is essential. It does, however, turn the SE into a beast. And I also disagree that SE outshines academies. I've done several games with both so far in RT and academies are more consistent.

    I think that superfarming in the SE may actually be better than rushing to bionic right away for biowells, especially if you can't get student aid. I usually start working specialists once the city reaches pop 10, so won't need institutes immediately. Maybe I'm using the wrong approach though, or am just slow on getting my non-capital cities to 10 pop. The health benefits from the biowells are mitigated if you simply use paean orbitals. Just 3-4 paeans is enough to solve whatever health issues I may be having.
     
  14. Rokdog

    Rokdog Chieftain

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    I guess I worded the question poorly. I've gotten the impression that you sometimes re-route multiple new cities back to your capital for food. So you'll have 3 "new" cities all sending their TRs back to the Capital. No TRs are repeated, but multiple are being sent to the same spot. For some reason I've been unable to do this, but now I'm thinking it might be a pathing/miasma issue.
     
  15. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    After about t100 or t110 I would be very happy to work snow academies over most tiles -> they are better than a mine with Research Conversion, after all, and far better than a food tile at that point. Biowells are nice partly because even after food loses value the +1 health does not. (Until you are at the positive health cap).

    OT: In the game above @t116 swapping a single citizen between a health effective biowell and a scientist has unintuitive affects on the total science rate: none at all. Health is good, but very finicky to manage due to the multiple thresholds. ;)
     
  16. Rokdog

    Rokdog Chieftain

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    I don't even... How the hell? My games look nothing like that. I don't suppose you have a guide or Let's Play somewhere? Apparently I'm terrible at this game compared to all the players who post here based on your victory times and screenshots. It's odd, because I was never this bad at Civ5, but with this game I am fundamentally doing something wrong it seems but can't figure out what it is.
     
  17. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    That game is in the top half of games I've played so far - though not the best. On poor maps (the arid biome seems to give these), and with bad artifact luck, hitting ~55 pop and ~100 science per turn may be more realistic goals for t100. Building a big military will slow down the start.

    I've found the BERT opening to be quite similar to a Liberty opening in Civ 5 - focus on hammers to get out your early cities holding the capital to size 3 or 4. Ideally you want a titanium tile, but a couple of mined hills will be fine. After colonist spam focus on the depots/caravans. Don't skimp on workers - especially if you are going the Biowell or Academy route. Prosperity -> Free Colonist -> Extra Expeditions seems far stronger than any other opening. After these 5 the virtue options open up. (Other early virtues are viable, just not as good).

    Don't forget to explore. I usually open something like: explorer -> OER -> explorer -> worker -> colonists. Water starts use patrol boats in place of explorers. An explorer can escort the colony pods if needed. Dump early production artifacts into the colonists, not earlier.

    Obviously try to build early units before their Affinity thresholds - but this can be tricky with the expedition affinity points messing up the timing. Just having ~4 intelligently placed units has been enough to fight off early aggression, I find. Aquatic cities are more vulnerable and need Patrol Boats/Subs in front.

    My biggest uncertainty at the moment is where Computing should fall in the tech path for Paean/VF or Biowell games. I like networks, and the spies can be useful.
     
  18. MAMoob

    MAMoob Chieftain

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    I don't find free colonist virtue mandatory if you go with pioneers (which seem to be the most broken option anyway due to explorer build speed). You sill might want to get prosperity 5 for the synergy bonus, but it's not a gamechanger. Otherwise, yeah, it's very nice. My development plan is similar overall. If I play ARC/Chungsu I rush Computing ASAP, If you get lucky with expditions/artifacts you can have like t40 spy agency although t50 is a bit more realistic. Then just use artificial intelligence + communications + cognition for extra 3 spies and upgraded academies (tbh upgraded spies give you a ton of science, but the more, the better right?). With others I usually don't bother with spies unless it's easy to grab an agreement with ARC and I have soul discerner training on hand, computing is on the path to emancipation VC/academy upgrade(if you have these) though.
     
  19. Rokdog

    Rokdog Chieftain

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    Awesome, thank you so much for sharing. This was very insightful, and definitely not what I was doing. I think I've been focusing a bit too much on buildings and infrastructure at first, essentially going a bit too tall too early, a tendency I've always leaned toward. Your advice about requiring boats/subs out front if doing a water push is also spot-on with the games I've had lately.

    If you figure something out, do share! I've wanted to try the VF/Paean setup but have a hard time deciding what route to take. I'm still trying to squeeze Bionics in for the Institute slingshot but I worry that it will delay Paeans/VF so long it ends up defeating the point of using them to snowball through early expansion.

    Still need to try the build/guide you posted for that spy-heavy strat. Looks very fun!
     
  20. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Good points.

    - I'll get around to enabling Pioneers one of these games. It certainly looks to be strong on paper. With it the optimal vitrue path will change. Maybe just extra expeditions into early Industry? Or deeper into Prosperity early? Both will work well, I think.

    - Playing as ARC, Chungsu (or even just with a friendly AI ARC) taking Computing early is the way to go. Agreed. With spying duration modifiers getting to Steal Science missions is easy, at which point Computing will easily pay for itself.
     

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