A USA ally

[holy king]

I said we never have to enter Russia. Any Russian on the borders attacking, could be handled.

so?
the us beats up the russian military in georgia and then?
russia will just back off?
or start to use strategic nuclear weapons on an overwhelming land force with air superiority attacking it's army near it's border?

 

[red_elk]

I said we never have to enter Russia. Any Russian on the borders attacking, could be handled.

If you restrict your forces not to enter Russian territory, they will suffer much worse casualties. This is stupid from tactical point of view.

so?
the us beats up the russian military in georgia and then?
russia will just back off?
or start to use strategic nuclear weapons on an overwhelming land force with air superiority attacking it's army near it's border?

In case of Georgia, overwhelming land force will be enough.

 

[REDY]

If you restrict your forces not to enter Russian territory, they will suffer much worse casualties. This is stupid from tactical point of view.

Its true, for example in Vietnam it was one of big advantages of Viet Cong.

 

[scy12]

To anyone else other than Patroklos , who wants to know specifically what i am talking about.


The conflict of interests happens in three areas.

A) Differences which Greece has with negihbors , that the Americans support.

A) Aegean dispute
B) Cyprus issue
C) Macedonian issue
D) Energy issues and other minot things.
E) likely Minorities issue
As we all know there are several different countries with different conflicting interests in a region. So it makes sense that USA interests may be more aligned with one country rather than with others.

Turkey's geographical area , size and military power , make it more important in American plans along the Middle east and other regions , like for example Georgia. There is also the economical angle.

That makes USA to be supportive of Turkey's European negotiation . To be supportive of an undemocratic solution in Cyprus that is as Turkey intents so , Cyprus obstacle will cease to exist. And in Turkey's claim in The aegean sea , which is defying the international law on the extension of legal water space.

Now , while generally it does support Turkey more than Greece , it still does not desire A war among Nato nations.

They are both Nato allies so , the fact it intervened or wanted to appear that way as intervening to stop war is of Greece benefit as it is weaker militarily. Though , even when they did interevene , the situation always ended in Turkey's benefit.


Then their is the state of Albania , and FYROM much similar to how Georgia had acted , are more than willing to become Vassals of American policy on the region. Such relationship goes both ways of course.

One of the biggest American Military bases is in Fyrom , for example.

Now let's see some other event.

And Thraki , a noth part of Greece has several Muslim civilians after the citizen exchanges. As we did not kill them , like the Turks did with Greeks , there is a percentage of Muslims in Greece.

Turkey is supporting that they should have Minority special rights , many schools there teach them only the Turkish language and generally , there is an effort of creating a separatist state there.

Does this mean anything in particular. It does only when you put the pieces together. This area of conflict of interest is quite Cryptic and hard to understand to one who does not know exactly what i am talking about and is not familiar with the situation in those areas.

The rhetoric of "minority rights " is reproduced by several Americans.

Now , the extend US policy encourages the situation in Thraki and whether they just don't care much , but still give us some quotes about it , is unknown. So in this case how big conflict of interest exists is unknown. This situation may be related with other matters.

Then their is the issue of energy that may play a role with this. It was decided to build The Pipeline with the Russians of The Burgas-Alexandroupoli at US annoyance. It is an oil pipeline that will be used to transport Russian and Caspian oil from the Bulgarian Black Sea port of Burgas to the Greek Aegean port of Alexandroupoli. It would Bypass Turkey entirely and be a very cheap and cost effective way , for Europe to be supplied oil from the Caspian.

After the Oil comes to Greece , it will go to rest of South Europe. As Greece is the last passage of the Pipeline through one country , before it goes to several different routes
and supplies rest of Europe and as it will pay for it's construction cost it will also get a share of the profits.




Though there are conflict of interests there are also many shared interests as well.

 

[Patroklos]

Not a single thing you said precudes a military alliance.

 

[scy12]

Not a single thing you said precludes a military alliance.

Yes. What did i originally say ?

And actually other than due to the Nato alliance , where there are some common interest between each participant i don't consider USA an ally of Greece. In fact i consider it a country with mostly conflicting interests , that just happens to be in a military alliance.

Pretty clear. You obviously misread it.

I think at this point you will say "It is not what i meant" or ignore everything said until this point and start ad hominems or accusations.

Or you could say " I misread it" . And my response would be " It happens to everyone."

 

[Patroklos]

i don't consider USA an ally of Greece

You fail.

Out of curiosity, how many economic agreements does the US have with Greece by itself or through the EU? Yeah, that’s what I thought

It is so tiring listening to all you "AMERICA IS THE DEVIL" type European fringe elements pretend the slightest disagreements on the smallest things constitute a schism of epic proportions. I realize this whole EU thing is new and you guys want to grow up and rebel a bit but please realize that in twenty years you will realize you were overreacting and we will both laugh about your youthful rambunctiousness over eggnog at the Christmas family get togethers when we are not laughing somewhat sadly about the latest antics of that crazy uncle Ivan who never quite got its . .. .. .. . together. Hey China, pass me some pound cake!

 

[scy12]

You fail.

Out of curiosity, how many economic agreements does the US have with Greece by itself or through the EU? Yeah, that’s what I thought

It is so tiring listening to all you "AMERICA IS THE DEVIL" type European fringe elements pretend the slightest disagreements on the smallest things constitute a schism of epic proportions. I realize this whole EU thing is new and you guys want to grow up and rebel a bit but please realize that in twenty years you will realize you are overreacting and we will both laugh about your rambunctiousness over eggnog at the Christmas family get togethers when we are still not laughing at that crazy cuncle Ivan who never quite got its . .. .. .. . together. Hey China, pass me some pound cake!

I won't answer to your troll.I will just repeat what i originally said. Because you did "ignore everything said until this point and start ad hominems or accusations."

As you ignored what was meaningful , so you can troll , i will ignore what is meaningless so i can repeat what is meaningful for those willing to understand it.

And actually other than due to the Nato alliance , where there are some common interest between each participant i don't consider USA an ally of Greece. In fact i consider it a country with mostly conflicting interests , that just happens to be in a military alliance.

Though there are (i would add , many) conflict of interests (mostly on foreign policy , and there are bigger conflicts of interests between Greece , USA than for example France , USA and many other NATO countries) there are also many shared interests as well (obvious).

 

[Patroklos]

So let me clear this up for everyone.

Greece and America are currently members of strongest military and polical alliances that currently exist in the world and enjoy extensive mutually benefitial economic ties and formal agreements, but according to Scy12 that doesn't equal allies.

Yeah, I laughed too.

 

[scy12]

So let me clear this up for everyone.

Greece and America are in strongest military and economic alliances that currently exist in the world, but according to Scy12 that doesn't equall allies.

Yeah, I laughed too.

I said
They are in a military alliance but they currently have extremely conflicting interests about the interest of Greece and it's neighbors. USA currently supports the interests of the other countries , which undermine the interest of Greece.

By being both in Nato they both have some obligations. But even so , USA supports policies that are very damaging to Greece. So despite Nato which i acknowledge as a plus in , their relations i am lead to a conclusion.


In fact you made no effort to debate against my claims of conflict of interests. You only said that they are in NATO so whatever conflict of interests exist do not matter. You are not only ignorant but also proud of it...

As your failure to respond meaningful continues you resort into speaking on the third person. Speaking on the third person does not make you look any smarter , either Patroclos.


Again i quote my original statement because your whole posts are not justified to exist. Maybe you will read it now. And understand it.

And actually other than due to the Nato alliance , where there are some common interest between each participant i don't consider USA an ally of Greece. In fact i consider it a country with mostly conflicting interests , that just happens to be in a military alliance.

 

[Patroklos]

You only said that they are in NATO so whatever conflict of interests exist do not matter.

They don't, as every interest you mentioned is small potatoes compared to an alliance that spans two continents and has global interests. Any Ageon spat you might have with Turkey is inconsequential (as the ones in reality showed) up against the security of the Mediterrainean, Bosphorus and Suez through which nearly all Greek energy needs are supplied through which is derived entirley from the stability created and maintained by NATO. That is just one example.

So again, nothing you brought up in any way hinders America and Greece being allies, which is of course aptly proven by the fact that America and Greece ARE allies. Observed reality wins.

As your failure to respond meaningful continues you resort into speaking on the third person. Speaking on the third person does not make you look any smarter , either Patroclos.

You need to look "third person" up, you are using it wrong

 

[innonimatu]

[...] are currently members of strongest military and polical alliances that currently exist in the world and enjoy extensive mutually benefitial economic ties and formal agreements, but according to Scy12 that doesn't equal allies.

And that is a very common situation, which applies also to several other NATO countries. and applied, dramatically, several times over the alliance's existence. The most notorious crisis was Suez. But we had the US pretending they had nothing to do with their "allies" also during the Falklands War, and during all the colonial conflicts in Africa and Asia - only to see the americans afterwards change into the very same areas and trying to take control over them, either as an area of influence, or even with open military invasions.
Not to mention the instances where the US actively supported those fighting against its allies, there are also a few examples. But let's leave old treacheries where they belong, in history. Every alliance goes through this, there's always some tolerance for treachery. Anyway, Scy is right, and you're pretending, as usual, that the US can do no "wrong" - whatever wrong happens to be at the time anyway.

 

[Patroklos]

the most notorious crisis was Suez.

No, its not. Alliances are not nebulous things that exist in gray areas, they are formal agreements with concrete stipulations. So what alliance measures were triggered by French and British unilateral actions in the Suez?

Being allies is not a blank check to do whatever you want with unconditional support.

But we had the US pretending they had nothing to do with their "allies" also during the Falklands War

Actually, this is the most damaging instance to your arguement you could have brought up. As a matter of fact no formal alliance conditions were triggered by the Argentine attack, but despite this the US provided immeasurable material, intelligence and logistical support to the British.

and during all the colonial conflicts in Africa and Asia

Again, what formal alliance mechanisms were triggered? I will note that many countires helped in Vietnam even when there wasn't any requirement, again you need to stop shredding your own position.

Not to mention the instances where the US actively supported those fighting against its allies, there are also a few examples.

Feel free to provide them, since we all know there is a reason you didn't just now

Anyway, Scy is right, and you're pretending, as usual, that the US can do no "wrong" - whatever wrong happens to be at the time anyway.

Please stop being transparent, nobody is talking about right or wrong but the reality that America and Greece are allies. The fact that you can not break from that train of though says everything about you that anyone needs to know, namely the irrelevance of your words.

 

[Uncle Anton]

That is not evidence. That is a website.

Meaning I can quote any major American newspaper as an unreliable "piece of paper"?

BTW... Not that I have any polarised view on the subject (I only posted because I can't abide one-eyed ignorance of fact)... the below article from the ABC (Australia's BBC) would suggest both sides are going a bit over the top...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/14/2335895.htm

 

[sourboy]

You can help them in many ways, nobody asked you to go to war with the Russians.

They sent 2000 troops to Iraq. We sent 1000? to Georgia to train them... our troops are still in Georgia... training troops... AND we are giving them aid (more than food, let's be honest). Bush is also spitting at the Ruskies diplomatically in many ways...

Isn't that exactly what should be done? Proxy FTW.

 

[Bigfoot3814]

Meaning I can quote any major American newspaper as an unreliable "piece of paper"?

As you might notice, I was using a quote from my signature. I just said that because I thought you being kind of dickish about it. But whatevs. I don't have anything else to contribute to this thread.

 

[Zarn]

If you restrict your forces not to enter Russian territory, they will suffer much worse casualties. This is stupid from tactical point of view.



In case of Georgia, overwhelming land force will be enough.

No, if we fight in Georgia, we don't have to deal with brainwashed Russian civilians. Georgians are sure not going to aid Russian troops trying to enter Georgia.

 

[red_elk]

No, if we fight in Georgia, we don't have to deal with brainwashed Russian civilians. Georgians are sure not going to aid Russian troops trying to enter Georgia.

What you will do with fire from Russian territory, if you can't return fire?