A very late ALC attempt - I. DeGaulle

[Choeimok]

Bullpen

The settings:


The leader:

As mentioned before, I can't help but want to build Stonehenge with this guy for that sweet +2 in all cities. Starting techs are very nice (but ill-suited for building said wonder right away), and the Salon helps provide some artist pollution later on.

The start:

Riverside Gold! On the downside, looks quite low in the food department unless the grassland 2S has another resource (which would make this a really strong capital). The bald PH southwest also looks suspicious.
It looks like I might be one off the coast though? Still, it's one one water tile (and it could still be a lake), so this is probably better than getting lots of coast and risking not having Fish/etc.

I'd consider settling the Wine since I think it will give +1 commerce in the city square (or is that only for FIN leaders?), but that one tile looks like a desert and I'm hoping for those southern resources.

Either way, it will be a hammer capital, don't think I will be able to afford lots of cottages food-wise with all those hills and no real food yet.


I should probably move the warrior to the spices...?

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Played 13 turns, up to 3480 BC :

No seafood, but more gold! I will SIP and hope for corn in the south...


Guess that's not a bad at all outcome for the suspiciously non-forested green tile either!
So I lose approx. 10 food from the hills and the plains tile, but now it almost breaks even.


Capital: Worker
Tech Plan: AH -> Mining -> Pottery - I think the food should have priority. Mining should come in right around the time I finish the pasture...


This is turn... 6 or 7? I need to turn off that percentage in BUG... Being himself, Joao will probably settle right in my face any second already.


His capital is very close, and the land directly in between is rather starved. The gold/rice/cow site NE should probably be my #1 settling priority, unless the FP/Silk site SE has something to make it more appealing.


I've never done this before, but... should I consider "acquiring" this guy here? It's quite risky, as building a warrior using one of the forest plains hills would still take 4 turns, and I don't know where his exploring Archer wandered off to - he should be directly north of Paris, but I don't know if he has seen my borders.
On the plus side, Joao is too close to be anything but a long-term enemy, and I haven't met any other civs yet to get diplo penalties from.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 33 / 2680 BC :

Decided to take the chance. Worker reached the Gold mine exactly on the turn I finished Mining. Joao's Archer did indeed not see Paris, so I seem to be fine growing while slowly building that warrior. I want Pottery, then BW. Portugal no longer refuses to talk, but staying at war a bit longer while there's no danger will cripple his expansion...


Not sure if I should road this or directly go improve the gold as I don't need the Pigs' health yet. But I think roading is probably the better option...? It does take 5 turns, still.


Working the gold right away after improving it. This delays growth by one turn (compared to the FP), but Pottery comes in 4 instead of 6 turns. I will also road it.


I should probably get another Warrior, then a Settler? Joao still only has his single Archer, but is at size 3 (building barracks?) No Slavery yet.
Nope, he got a second, unpromoted Archer out one turn later. Not sure if that was all he was building in this time, but apparently...



On the other hand, I could grow another size...? Since the riverless gold is still a great tile, I think I am going to want to do that?


The SE has Stone, but it's in an awkward spot - for now, this looks like the best place for initial expansion - won't be a great city, but it does get 3 resources and can share cottages with the capital. BW in 2 turns might change my mind.


No Copper! Joao has a third Archer, unpromoted. I could try choking him for a bit longer with my Warrior (starting guy will be joined by my SE explorer who will talk up the coast), settle city 2 as planned and city 3 near the horses way northwest after getting out 1-2 more Warriors. Since the capital is rich, it shouldn't bankrupt me. Or I could tech IW, but I'd rather go Writing -> Math...
I still don't know where Joao's exploring Archer is or if we're semi-isolated.


How do you read this thing? I think he actually has more Spy points on me than I do on him? (using slider?)

My other options seem to be:

1. Settle the horses right away, probably including the rice unless I manage to scout out something better in the fog (brown dot)
2. get the southern commerce spot instead (yellow dot)

I think the white dot is stronger for growth than the yellow one though? It does have decent production capacities in addition to helping with cottages... (I won't cottage the river tiles in its BFC not belonging to Paris) It's awkwardly off the river, but settling there instead of 1N does remove the desert while keeping the forest.

 

[Choeimok]

Didn't play a lot more, there's a decision I'm finding quite difficult up ahead...

Spoiler Turn 42 / 2420 BC :

Around here, I realize: Why have I not been chopping yet? Probably would have been stronger for now? On the other hand, maths in 11... The horse site is looking pretty unappealing (jungle to the north) for now, but I do really want it... Joao has a new worker, currently in his capital.



The Settler is finally out, and there is an additional option - the orange dot further northeast, which at least would have its own food (and the clear hills as opposed to more plains 1 NW). Not sure where to go. White still looks like the best option. I'm going to want peace with Portugal eventually, but for now I am quite enjoying slowing his development.


In the capital, I will work the second FP cottage to grow while building my next warrior, then probably another warrior, then a settler. Will get me a bit worker-starved, but grab the necessary spots. I don't really want to tech IW now, but what options do I have? I'd like to finish Math for chopping, and then...? Mysticism? Can wait for now. Masonry? Maybe, but I won't be having stone until city #5 or so - horses are more important. Alphabet? If I had met another AI than Joao who will always hate me...

Might be getting some barb issues soon, too. Not sure how vast the southern tundra is. If keeping up the war with Joao is preventing me from one thing, it's scouting - there might be copper down there and I'd be missing it...

Also not in Slavery yet...

No wonders are built yet, and not even Judaism was founded so far.


So I think, possible plans include:
1.
Paris: Warrior (city guard) -> Warrior (explore/fogbust south? Help choking?) -> Settler -> hopefully more workers in the future
Second city: White dot
Third city: Orange dot, unless IW reveals Iron
Civics: Keep tribalism for now.
Tech: Finish Maths, then get IW for both chance at iron and jungle removal for horse city.
Joao: Choke him out (I have doen chokes before, but only after failed rushes, not Worker stealing) until I have the 4 city spots surrounding him (white, orange, yellow, plainsy cow/wheat/stone site in the SE), brown probably will be a filler production city later on, or stay at war and get HBR.
Problem: Barbs will be horrible. And Joao might decide to break out while I'm busy building Settlers and fogbusters.

2.
Paris: Warrior -> Warrior (partial) or Library (partial) -> Great Wall
Tech: switch for Masonry, do unboosted chops with workers to hopefully get the wonder.
Second City: Still white dot, no slavery until wonder is finished.
Civics: Also keeping Tribalism as I really can't afford the Anarchy that way.
Problem: Greater chance of losing the horses if Joao does finally decide to leave his capital, I don't want to be resourceless here. Might not win GW. I dislike wasting Forests without Maths.
Also losing out on my great commerce while working hammer tiles.

 

[Lain]

Some comments in no particular order

Spoiler :

1) I agree on stealing the worker. Can be done up to Immortal rather safely in situations like this, since stray archers are unlikely to attack you early on. Of course, you might not want to do this if there is an archer standing right on your border. Also, stealing a worker (and maybe killing a scout) will allow you to make peace any time you want basically. Settling cities also helps with that. The AI is more likely to accept peace (or cease fire) if you are bigger. Not sure about the exact mechanic.

2) Joao has more (131 in this case) spypoints on you by using slider, yes. You might want to send a workboat or so for scouting, but looks like semi isolation to me.

3) Your tech path was something like: Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Mining, Bronze Working, Writing? Nothing wrong with that, though personally I would swap the order and go for Bronze Working first. With two golds (even one would be enough) commerce won't be much of an issue for a while. On the other hand, floodplains and gold mines are not the best sources of production. Rather, I would chop out settlers and keep the capital at size 3 (Pigs+both gold mines) for a while. Maybe even farm a floodplain early on (replace with cottage later).

4) I am not sure when, but eventually Joao will get your warrior out of there. And you can't effectively stop him from going past you with a settler party either. Not sure he would do that, but still... after not finding Horses or Copper in the vicinity, Archery would have been my pick here (even before Pottery). You can stay at war, not worry about him attacking you and plant 1-2 archers in his forests. He will never get them out of there.

It would also solve any potential barb issues. The horses are rather far away. You can probably get them in time, but roading there seems like a logistical nightmare. I tech Archery more often than not in my games. With two golds I wouldn't hesitate. You could literally settle in Joao's face then and never make peace. Hook up the horses when you are ready.

5) Rice-Gold for 2nd city looks fine . Fresh water won't be that much of an issue, you will be able to work the good tiles. Being able to work the rice straight away (just realized you aren't creative) is worth much more. Yellow dot would be city #4 or #5 for me. Farming the floodplains for food is a big commitment in terms of worker turns.

6) Stonehenge is cheap enough to be built without stone if you want to commit some forests. Only for Pyramids I would hook it up.

Hope there is something helpful there . Will follow your game a bit.

Seeing your last update (in the early game, maybe take it a bit slower, since it is easy for readers to follow your play and make comments if you would like some. Later with 6+ cities it becomes harder to pinpoint specific aspects of the game), the unchopped forests stand out the most I guess. I would have chopped most of them ruthlessly without Maths

 

[Choeimok]

Thanks for the reply - I've also been enjoying reading your deity games.

Spoiler 1920 BC / Turn 52 :

1. / 4. I could get peace at any time, right now, but like the idea of keeping him building Archers instead of Settlers and having his worker sit idle in the capital. He has been at size 4 for a while, so maybe he is building a Settler... but has only 3 Archers against my 2 warriors on a forest hill right now. Archery actually is an appealing option since right now, I have no way of blocking him from going north.

2. Since we still don't know anyone else after >40 turns, seems like it will be that way. On the other hand, it does mean I will become quite big. Unless the continent ends right north of that horse site.

6. Yeah, that stone is too far out of the way. It's a bit too late to try Stonehenge now even with IND and the special appeal of also being CHA, but I did decide to go for the Great Wall plan. Wonder if it will work.


And 5. I did settle it as planned. Yellow... I actually would have cottaged that one, even if it does have a number of hills.


I contemplated trying to go for the max Growth rate in Paris (my cap is actually 7), but decided to keep working the river gold. Orleans gets that cottage instead of the farmless rice. Instead of saving research for a turn, I will do 90%.


Joao actually whipped a Settler. Still only has 3 Archers, plus that one explorer somewhere in the north unless he got eaten by a bear. He will probably have a fourth Archer soon, from overflow. If he decides to go north, there's nothing I can do about it.


Finally found copper in a quite juicy-looking spot... but full of jungle.



Buuut I won't be getting it - looks like a Khmer to me, or maybe an American.

Joao did get his fourth Archer, but wasted him on giving one of my warrior duo a woodsman promotion. Settler still camping it out at turn 51.


In the meantime...
I can even finish it in 1 turn without starving now
That solves the barb worries - now, do I will probably finish the Warrior I started building earlier, then the horse city? I also should adopt Slavery. Orleans should probably build a Granary, or even a worker after that Warrior.


There goes any uncertainty about it! The Great Wall, or perhaps, the Great Maginot Line? I could also try for the Mids since I do have Masonry, but I don't want to settle stone before Horses, especially not with the blue guy up north (still haven't met him as I pulled my Warrior back).
Tech: Maths-> Hunting -> Archery -> HBR? Construction even, since I'm so close to it? Alpha because I can trade with the third guy? Mysticism for a late Stonehenge attempt even, maybe going for settled specialists (but I do need cities...)?


Actually, I got a border pop in Paris fairly recently, and just noticed something...

Derp. Not scouting the immediate vicinity of my capital was a real move.

So:
I will put the overflow into a Settler, then complete the warrior to grow to size 6, settle the southern horse (won't be a great city and I'm not sure if Fishing is an immediate priority, but can work the gold to allow Paris to grow) and get... which tech? That's the open question right now.
Part of it being, how to take out Joao? Horse Archers or Catapults (+Chariots?). Just Chariots might be a bit bloody... but 6 or 7 Chariots could still be cheaper than waiting for all those techs.
Then again, he has 4 Archers again (whipped, presumably - his capital is size 1) and got up to 40% culture defense, so I think Chariots are out of the question.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 63 / 1400 BC :

Shuffling hammers between a Settler for the Horse city, a library, and...


... this thing. 2 turns at the price of a double chop and not working that cottage, but there's no way to get it in one. Still, that really is not very expensive. Please, please, please...
I also put research into Currency due to not really being sure what to do - but Construction is probably stronger since I'm not really hurting for Gold yet and want to take out Joao, who has 5 Archers now. One briefly left the capital distracted by my northern warrior, but returned after I fortified in jungle for a turn.


2 Archers went out, Worker and Settler still sitting tight. My guys should be fine here, if he attacks.


Got the wonder and he went back. Going to build mines with my workers next, one on the desert gold, one on the hill near Paris - will help with Worker/Settler production. I'm a bit behind on expansion right now, of course.


In the meantime, I have found this spot:

A complete ice ball, but it will help secure the GLib - also, the expanse of this does seem to justify the wall.


it just got better - it's still a terrible city that will have trouble exceeding size 3 and barely be able to pay for itself. (well, maybe with the coast), but I do need that, thank you!
Joao also suicided another Archer into my warriors, now in the forest directly northwest of his city. Got lucky there since it was a 50% chance, but now I have another woodsman and fortify bonuses.


Turns out it is America, Roosevelt. As far as I know, he plots at pleased, if he actually does plot at all. Overall, I'd rather see him than Washington, who's more often a threat. Has Hinduism and 3 cities. I sign OB with him since there's no need to antagonize.
Joao grew back and whipped again. His capital will hate him soon even at that size and yearn for different rule...
I do want to grab the horse/Fish spot next, but also need to watch the encroaching different shade of blue from the north. Horse/Rice/Banana city will be fourth, then probably something directly north of Paris. I need to scout there. I also want the mids though, now that I have 2 wonders that will throw out GP, and marble for a later Glib... If I build wonders at all, I can't help but get greedy for all of them.

Perhaps I want to grab the northern horse as originally planned instead, then the Stone, then the second northern frontier city (if I can still get the Gems site, that would actually be great), and let the Tundra wait a bit? Hopefully the southern barbs won't kill off or help Joao killing off my warriors camping him.


This barb city spawn complicates the settling plan, as it makes the stone spot even hungrier - unless there's seafood by the tundra, this will be a terrible spot...



Got the settler and will put some hammers into the library to grow. Forest should go into another worker, though, starting to need one.Orleans will be unhealthy soon because I forgot to road the rice. Well, getting that worker over to chop was more important at the time...

So where do I go, I wonder? If I take the northern horse spot, Joao will be almost completely cut off thanks to the barb city. I would use my Orleans guard and maybe the unpromoted northern forest choker as escorts.

In the north, the following tiles are blocked from settling:

So I think that's a small cross city over there, otherwise 1N of the gems doesn't make sense. I would probably settle south of the lake, if it's still open later on.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 86 / 725 BC :

I intend to do some more work on the Library now, to grow some more. Will swap out the mine for that cottage. After that, a Settler. Orleans finally got its border pop just in time when the local worker has nothing to do.


Don't have time to actually kill him right now yet, but Joao does keep sacrificing guys Warrior in question now has WM2 - he might even become my Supermedic some day.


I did go for the northern horse, maybe that wasn't such a great idea after all. Starts of unhealty. Tech plan is currency -> IW. Hopefully the Roose will get Alphabet.
I still don't have Slavery, but I'm working good tiles (well, the cow is unimproved, admittedly)... Orleans will build a Chariot after its Granary, who will scout of the coast south of the stone. Maybe I can save some anarchy and adopt it alongside Representation?



If he tries to take my city, the woodsman can block him off. 5 Archers in capital in addition to this guy.



That's not what I expected there. Warrior 7 was a disappointment and should have won his fight. Joao will still take peace. If he threatens my workers hooking up that horse, I will take peace, probably a cease fire, unless he offers money. Roose unfortunately is pleased with him, so I would prefer not to.



Got a Spy, who I will settle. Three archers coming for me, all having promotions (guess he did build the rax but saved the XP up for a while), one guy has Combat 2... probably the one who lucked out earlier.


Changed my mind - I peace forcing him into Tribalism, he still accepts even after having won the 2 battles. Wonder where he will put his Settler now, probably southeast.
There's some nice guys from the south coming to take care of him in absence of me.


Don't do it!



Iron popped down here. Maybe I do want to settle that spot as production rather than commerce, and a bit earlier than planned earlier.



Lack of food over here... if I could put this place on top of the mountain, it wouldn't be so bad, but I can't... Settling the forest or the silk forces me to settle a tundra junk city to get my stone, settling the PH loses river access and forces me to settle a filler city for the Floodplains.


Please settle on that lime dot, and not where you are standing...

So I have to settle south because of this annoying Joao settler, but both options are awkward. I probably should get the stone soon if I want these mids. Orleans and Lyons will be building the catapults for the second Portuguese war (should have went for Archery, after all). I hope Joao saw the copper earlier and is trying to desperately grab a strategic resource, therefore settling exactly in my spot.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 108 / 175 BC :

Joao's guys briefly disappeared into the fog, and...

Alright! Now stop settling, please.


No workboat exploring for you, either! This is a terrible city, but I want the Stone and it blocks him.



Founded Confucianism, will go Aesthetics next. No plans to convert. Roose is plotting and has a swordsman, rather unsettling. He's still pleased with Joao.


At least 3 swords, though this looks more like a settling party. I need to mine that iron, which is in Paris' extended borders.


Stole a forest from Joao. My warrior keeps shadowing Roosevelt's troops.



While it would be nice to chop that forest before settling, it's either waiting or settling the weaker (but more contested) northern spot first. Putting hammers into mids to grow.



Main stack or settling party? Not sure. If he's coming for me, I should be able to have a cat and 2 axes by the time he arrives. They disappeared the next turn, and I don't know to where.
Confucianism spread to Joao, and he also converted. Roosevelt is still pleased with him.


Finally managed to settle this spot. Joao is now completely blocked - if Roosevelt wasn't plotting, I'd be taking out that barb city now. Going for music to get the free GP. Mids in 13, and I still have a few forests left. Orleans badly needs more tile improvements, and Tours also is underdeveloped.

If Roosevelt wasn't probably plotting on me, I'd be taking that barb city, but this way I have to wait for a decent stack to attack Joao and defend against the other guy. They finally are both at cautious now. This doesn't change that he's probably plotting against me.


Somebody is coastal and oracled Metal Casting...? Roose has a Great Merchant, probably heading for Paris.



Lost the Pyramids. Well, 175 BC seems fair enough. I would gladly build the Library, but have no Marble until I settle that Ice city and just invested half my remaining BFC forests...
By the time I get out the next settler, walk him down there, improve and road the marble on ice... there's no way. I probably should be focusing on regular expansion, both by backfilling that horse city and taking over my old enemy (but Oporto is still size 1, so I think it would autoraze).

Roosevelt's impending attack is a concern, but his forces don't look too terrifying - he would maybe attack with 5-6 units. I wanted him to research Alphabet, but he seems not interested.

So, this was not a very good turnset - teching the weird Aesthetics branch while losing the Pyramids and not having enough workers. Lyons is producing a decent amount of units, at least. After Music, which is a lot less valuable without Rep, I should finally be focusing on Lib. Also want Calendar, though. Roosevelt doesn't seem to have it, I can see a number of unimproved calendar resources in his lands.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 132 / 425 AD :

Got the Music artist. Bulb would yield junk, so it's between settling (would do this without even thinking twice with Rep) and burning him for a GA. Since I do have some long-awaited civics changes to do...
In pure values I think Settling will be stronger even for an artist's lousy 3 gold long-term (very long-term)...


Roosevelt actually stopped plotting now... I haven't, of course..


... for a moment I actually thought that Archer to be a worker, thinking to steal 2 in a single strike.
Not the case - but let's see how this goes. Bit prematurely as I don't have crushing weight to take Lisboa yet, but the opportunity to catch him with his pants down is right here, and there is nothing he can do against Swordsmen+Catapults. Once my 2 guys in the west take Oporto, they will supplement the eastern stack that in the meantime will bomb down the culture and walls.
Roosevelt is actually up to pleased, with no "You declared war on our friend".


Joao actually did have Iron in Lisboa - I think that wasn't there before, he must have gotten it from a random mine pop. Hell, that hill was the one I had fortified my warriors on. That's kind of BS, actually... Fortunately, the barb Archer did as a good barb archer should...

Frustratingly, I also managed to lose 2 (!) Swordsmen trying to attack stray Archers.



Took Oporto with 3 units, but my Swordsman is badly wounded...



Since I lost my offensive bite near Lisboa with the Archer disaster, I take peace rather than risk my soon-to-be-CR3-guy...



Sure, try to run away with that Worker! The Archer is probably somewhere in the fog, meanwhile. I redeclare with 4 Cats, a Sword and an Axe, my 2 better swords in Oporto are still wounded but this is winnable.


Wonder if one of these two if the exploring Archer I've been missing for 3000 years...?
Either way, I gladly take the gift worker.



Another Spy... I really want a Great Scientist, but haven't gotten around to running the specialists...



There we go - even got another worker out of it. City has just a lighthouse and a Stonehenge Monument... and a settled general.



I also got one out of it - not sure what to do with him.


Roosevelt is kind of big - got 10 cities already while I had to fight for my 9 (and won't get past 11 - the barb city and the junky southwestern whale/marble/copper ice site are still available, the far southeast of the continent is just a wasteland), no Alphabet, presumably far from Feudalism. Should I...?

If I attack him I'll make a supermedic - if I don't, I will probably actually settle the guy for later, probably in Lisboa. My highest Sword has 9 XP, which seems to be enough to build the HE with CHA.
So either my army will take the barb city and enter retirement, or take the barb city while reinforcements are built. Not sure.

I also still haven't started the GA yet as I also want Monarchy... when I do, I could consider to convert to Hinduism if I don't want to queue another war - right now, only Oporto has it, but just for the diplo. Confucian actually has way better spread, but I don't think he would convert, being founder.

A brief overview of my cities at this point, first the south:

Paris: not-yet-Bureaucracy capital. I want an academy, quite badly.
Chartres: Source of slimy fish and skinny tundra horses. I will probably fill up those non-shared hills with Windmills and hope for those forests to spread for lumbermills later on - intil then, it's a fishing village that will maybe contribute 2-3 units... or not.
Marseilles: the younger twin of Orleans, therefore not really a twin. Farms, mines, shared cottages. Only good city south of Paris.
Rheims: Junk city. Spreading down irrigation all the way from Lisboa through Aryan down to the green parts of its BFW will help, until then all it can do is work a bit of coast at best.


Orleans: Having worked up Paris' cottages up to towns like a champ, it's time to transistion into production mode with civil service. So city tiles do spread irrigation even when on desert, good to know.
Tours: Production-filler-coast-thing.
Lisboa: As said previously, it will be responsible for unit pumping in the future. Lots of coast, unfortunately. The iron pop was ridiculous, but the one Swordsman he got Joao got out of it wasn't really dangerous in the end, probably worse than an Archer in terms of hammer investment.
I actually find these heavily-forested grasslands quite awkward in production cities - unimproved forest is not a great tile, but Workshops suck until the late Renaissance, too, and only get actually good with Communism... so usually I just keep and later lumbermill them.
Lyons: The main "architect" city of the war, but I think I will transform it to commerce now that those jungles are mostly cleared and the food is hooked up. Maintenance is highest here - the Courthouse has been needed for a while.
Oporto: The saved settler (but still cost me a catapult and a ceasefire). Due to having those gems and all these green flatlands, focus will obviously be commerce, even if it won't be great, lacking a river.


About the Feudalism thing though, I checked his Civics and he actually does have HR - so no, I should probably forget about it - I'd take his 2 border cities and the rest would be full of longbows (at least only Seattle is on a hill, that and maybe or maybe not his unknown city probably SE of Washington), I can't even build have a single medieval unit yet, and no elephants. Better bro up with him and grow using Monarchy... If only he would finally research Alphabet, I'll have to do that myself in the end...

 

[lymond]

what is "AviaLCa"? I get that the letters "ALC" are in there, but otherwise the title is gibberish. IMO not a great way to attract folks to the thread.

with that said:

Spoiler I'm a Spoiler :

Start is quite strong, besides the massive amount of junk to the south. 3 solid cities to start with, while abusing Joao like he's never been abused before. I stole at least 10 workers from him and never let him settle a second city, although I kinda wished I did.

 

[Fippy]

Lymo

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

@ My

I will consider it when I can find the time..eggball y'know!

 

[Gumbolt]

Title makes perfect sense to me. ALC- All Leaders Challenge. First of this series is Degaulle. Others will likely follow.

It's very late as this game has been around nearly 11 years!!!

I don't like this stone gambit. The city is absolutely horrible. Time to gift it away? For mids I think you needed to go for it much sooner. 175bc seems very late for deity.

The big risk here is isolation with the Americans and finding the other continent way ahead on techs. LB's are a pain. Pults, sword and axes are not ideal. I would want at least mace really. Especially at 425ad. You do need a plan for caravels here to avoid losing the tech race. Even if you got alphabet chances are the Ai would trade very little here.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler reply :

10 workers? I don't think he even produced 10 units in my game between my first declaration around 3500 BC and ... 500 BC? That's very impressive!

Title is still not exactly catchy and a bit unwieldy, but I did change it now.

Spoiler Turn 189 / 1290 AD :

Time to adopt some civics at last! This is a very late Slavery adoption...



7 turns? 7? Normally, I forget THG even exist due to the awkward Aquaduct requirement, but this time I was having health issues... So if I get the wonder, it's nice, since I'm having said health issues... if I don't, it's building wealth at 250%, that's fine as well.


Roosevelt finally researched Alphabet... but he's too backwards to be really of any use. Only one of those techs I care about is Meditation for Philo, and I can research that in a turn.



Um... perhaps it wasn't -that great- of an idea to send this guy out unescorted? Would have worked if I waited a turn and went from the marble to 1SE instead to scout all tiles adjacent to the hill.



Roosevelt may have Longbows, but come to think of it, his head would look really good on a pike. Which I don't have. This is either going to give me a ton of good land or put me deep into a tech hole.



Finally got my great scientist - his academy won't be very good right now, but



It's became quite a slog due to Machinery and Crossbows, but Roosevelt is going down. I'm essentially running Monty tactics here - throw a big stack at everything. I can take cities with multiple LBs and Crossbows sacrificing 2-3 catapults (unless I get unlucky and don't damage the top defender several times) and will soon finally cut off his last iron, the most problematic are the stray Crossbows. I razed a few cities due to both them being awkward to defend (so is Washington, but I just had to keep it) wanting to resettle them, which is now in process. I will raze less in the east.


Roose assembled nearly all his remaining and new troops in his hill city Seattle at this point, while my army swung back from the captured west and reinforcements / previous counterattack preventers from the south joined... I took the first strike with the other troops while the main stack was still unable to move. 6 catapults and one guy.
I'm about to get Gunpowder, but probably will not require it. Roose has Engineering, but won't get many castles.

After this battle is won, my unit production is essentially stopped, time has come for economic recovery. The rest of the game depends on how fast I can get out of the crisis...



This AI is quite concerning, but apart from the Theo wonders, I've had these techs for centuries, too. Even Sankore isn't gone yet.


529 has to be the guy with all the wonders - I really hope that's a Golden Age value...

There's a good chance of a Buddhist lovefest over there, too.


So, starting this classical vs semi-medieval war at 1000 AD was a kind of questionable decision - I'm winning, but I built so many units, my economy is thrashed. If other continent has been trading, I will find myself awfully backwards. Lib is not gone yet, though.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Gumbolt :

I do agree it's a pretty bad city, and either I should have settled it way later, or way earlier. At least produced a few units and is currently contributing rather than running a deficit. Since America was indeed very reluctant to trade, I did end up starting this war - not ideal is a bit of an understatement. The current plan for Caravels is "wait until I can afford researching anything at all."

Spoiler 1510 AD / Turn 212 :

Another century later that was just spent wiping the eastern cities, Roosevelt is about to be shoved into the sea.


My economy is hurting badly, and this is a big part of the reason. He doesn't even have Zeus, the war was just that bloody.


So I take peace for the techs that matter - he still has the Machinery and Engineering advantage on me after this, doubt I'll be able to get them (maybe if I had built spies since I do probably have a big spy advantage on him)


After the seemingly forever-lasting peace finally ended (one city I settled around the same time, well, 1340 AD so not quite, is already size 8 with several buildings...), my economy is clearly in recovery... barely getting up to the pre-war levels.


The new cities are growing, mostly have courthouses, I'm no longer bleeding gold at 0% (at some point, I was at -70, building wealth in lots of cities and just barely afloat from plunder gold) without building wealth. The unmet AIs have started to build things like Notre Dame (wonder guy) and Sistine Chapel (fortunately not the wonder guy, I might be screwed otherwise), Sankore is still open so I'm actually building it in some random place because why not, it's between fail gold and denial.


My GNP is still junk, but western US (between Rouen, Atlanta and Seattle) was actually quite poorly developed and has lots of young cottages.

Taking out Roosevelt should take me 7 or 8 turns in which I'd have to suffer massive WE and unit supply costs. (I still have around 40 units, which I could otherwise distribute as Monarchy guys). Not sure if that's worth it as he's not going to able to bribe anyone into me later and his remaining 3 cities are not great. His spies are annoying though. Motherland is around 3 in most cities.


I actually have a ton of espionage on him from over the years, that would be another reason not to kill him yet - not as long as he has stealable techs (machinery, engineering, 3-4 old useless techs I skipped) or even just money.


Using a production advantage as a war doctrine was kind of there - look a long time to prepare and I destroyed my economy. 20 cities is kind of a threshold between "fairly big" and "really huge" size on standard maps, but I'm actually still very far from Domination, under 30% - even if I settled several percents of ice on my continent, I'm not getting there anytime soon. Still essentially last place in demographics since Roosevelt... doesn't really count at this point. I think Lib is still not researched, but I don't think I'll win - should probably focus on Optics and Printing Press...?

 

[Gumbolt]

1510ad. Where are the AI??? Oh just noticed you are playing Monarch. Thought you were on deity. The title of thread could be a bit more informative.

20 cities is not huge for a continent map. Being this is only Monarch this game should be 100% winnable. Also explains why you have met no AI yet.

I think you need to look at your overall game here as you should really be beating down Monarch level much easier.
You took out 2 Ai by 1510ad. That is really slow. You had 2 gold resources in your capital. Making HA rush easily possible.Worker stealing is good but other times quicker to go in for the kill with HA. Either way ceasefire helps.
For monarch level you certainly did not need great wall. Mids was a distraction too. Too many wonders on early levels is a rookie mistake.

Your city expansion was way too slow. 3 cities by 2000bc is not impossible. Easily 4 by 1000bc. With 2-3 gold resources you could of taken CS with Oracle.

Looks like slavery much sooner too would of helped.

 

[lymond]

Title makes perfect sense to me

that's because he changed it, Gumbo..pay attention

 

[fjordan]

Nice write-up, although a bit too quick if you want this to be a true ALC in the spirit of Sisutil, with people helping you to get better.

@Gumbolt: You really should not assume everyone on the forum is a deity player. That is your mistake, not his. And your advice should also take this into account. Telling a Monarch player he sucks because you can easily beat it yourself is not helping.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Replies :

1510ad. Where are the AI??? Oh just noticed you are playing Monarch. Thought you were on deity. The title of thread could be a bit more informative.

20 cities is not huge for a continent map. Being this is only Monarch this game should be 100% winnable. Also explains why you have met no AI yet.

I think you need to look at your overall game here as you should really be beating down Monarch level much easier.
You took out 2 Ai by 1510ad. That is really slow. You had 2 gold resources in your capital. Making HA rush easily possible.Worker stealing is good but other times quicker to go in for the kill with HA. Either way ceasefire helps.
For monarch level you certainly did not need great wall. Mids was a distraction too. Too many wonders on early levels is a rookie mistake.

Your city expansion was way too slow. 3 cities by 2000bc is not impossible. Easily 4 by 1000bc. With 2-3 gold resources you could of taken CS with Oracle.

Looks like slavery much sooner too would of helped.

The problem with the HR rush is that the only horses I could fine were those way up northwest almost adjacent to Joao's capital, I was unaware of the horses directly south of Paris for a long time - at that point simply teching Construction seemed easier than all of Hunting, Archery and HBR. (which I still don't have)

Yes, GW was probably a mistake, there have been a lot less barbs from the ice than I would have expected - would the investment for fogbusters in both hammers, turns and gold be cheaper than the wall? Maybe. It did give me two spies, which without Rep (and at this point, I'm more likely to go US instead, it's only one tech further) is... also kind of debatable. They won't be a complete waste if I steal Roosevelt's remaining techs, at least. Need to remember removing the Spy focus from him that he's had since meeting him.
Stonehenge I'm not so sure about, since those 2 turns and 2 forests did end up saving me 30 hammers in every single city. It just comes at such an awkward time slot, I think I had 2 cities and delayed the horse further. So it's still debatable, but I think the least bad of those early wonder choices.

Oracle... it's those wonders I never seem to build due to its position in the tech tree, more often than not I skip Meditation and Polytheism until I need Literature or Philo. If I have Marble, I sometimes find it too early for Masonry, if I don't... Or I get them after the more interesting worker techs and someone like Huayna, Gandhi or Pacal (not IND, but I have seen him build it notoriously open) completes it. I have absolutely no feeling when to get Priesthood.

... and the Slavery issue really was a series of "I don't really want to have Anarchy right now"-s...

Nice write-up, although a bit too quick if you want this to be a true ALC in the spirit of Sisutil, with people helping you to get better.

@Gumbolt: You really should not assume everyone on the forum is a deity player. That is your mistake, not his. And your advice should also take this into account. Telling a Monarch player he sucks because you can easily beat it yourself is not helping.

It was weekend and I had little else to do...
It is true to say that I suck though, so many horrible mistakes... My 4 or 5 games on Noble and Prince before this after a long break were just much more forgiving - in the Justinian NC I was building a lot of wonders in the expansion phase (while neighboring Monty and having just warriors), formed a religious block involving Monty that ended up infighting most of the time, lost a city (to him, of course) and in the ADs got dogpiled on 2 fronts... it was still a stomp. Monarch is still kind of forgiving since the current position and the screwed-up gameplay that led up to it is not hopeless, but I can't seem to pull that kind of shenanigans anymore (they make for bad habits)

Spoiler Turn 219 / 1545 AD :

I did build a Spy, but culture is encroaching already and causing the first revolt... let's see how long this will have to take, I'd like to end this guy already. Stealing is of course expensive without the stationary bonus...



I'll take it - but he failed.


I did lose this. Not a good sign for Liberalism, but the gold is more useful to me than the wonder ... unless I really want to deny the wonder, but at least it wasn't built by the wonder guy.


I meet Isabella, and the mystery of the big Buddhist block's source is solved. She has Philosophy but lacks Education and Gunpowder. I will open borders and maybe even switch to Buddhist. All city names are Spanish, but I think she's missing Seville - it's Barcelona, Cordoba, Toledo, Santiago. I also could consider trading Gunpowder for Philo, Compass and some more stuff, not sure about that since I can tech Philo in 1 for 400 Gold alternatively. (and Lib in 4... if I had full research*) Or I can wait 2 turns for Paris to build that university.

She is not the wonder guy (Madrid only has the Mahabodi, which is also the only wonder in her country), and not responsible for at least one religion as she doesn't have Divine Right.

I don't know where her Caravel is, but she doesn't know Roosevelt...



... to whom I have 2 more spies en route, hoping to get luckier on the Machinery and Engineering steals this time. I still have 4500 spy points, so I should just try and hope rather than wait, try and hope to save points.

... waiting with spies did make missions cheaper and not increase your chances, right? Haven't used any in a while. Hope I'm not getting this mixed up.

Quite short turnset for today, but it still took like an hour to type together this post and finally meeting my future conquistadors shakes things up.


* economy is looking up right now due to cities working more tiles, growing cottages and finishing Courthouses (5 production-poor cities that are not the capital still lack one, one being the Marble city which I just now built due to completing a Settler that I think was intended to replace St. Louis 1W as St. DeGaulle. The other 4 are all making a commerce profit, so I don't want to whip and hurt the cottage growth. Maybe I should whip Amiens where I no longer make a profit after switching some tiles with Washington to grow faster... next turn - it's 1 turn from size 6 and Courthouse costs 3 pop)
...and Markets, almost forgot to mention. They're expensive and often called a trap, but I have a mostly cottage-based economy (north of Oporto/Lyons, while the south ended up full of production cities + Paris) and most of my commerce is going into gold.
I am now making money at 10% without building wealth anywhere, and could research on 20 for a looong time.