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A very late ALC attempt - II. Genghis Khan

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Choeimok, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    After the very lenghty but still too hastily played De Gaulle game, the next leader in the list is none other than the Khan himself - on a....

    Spoiler :


    ... Fractal map. That took a few rolls, barely dodged the Donut in favor of another deeply standard map type.




    We're still on Monarch. :king: Playing like in the last game would get me crushed on higher levels, so that's a very good thing.


    Spoiler aaand I actually started this without selecting Mongolia and rolled... :


    ... him. Of all people. :D
    Some forest start that looked quite mediocre compared to Paris from last game. I don't think Temujin's start will be better than that either, of course.




    This time however, it is him indeed!
    Ew, coast though, how very unmongolian.


    Seafoodless coast, in fact. I'd move the Scout onto the FPH 2N.
    I'm not sure if this qualifies as a Plains Cow start since there's a second Grassland Cow, but it definitely feels a bit under-average on the first regard. Well, at least there's Grass under most of the forests, could have been plains.


    Our Civ:
    Aggressive / Imperialistic
    Hunting / Wheel
    Keshik
    : Horse Archer with a first strike that ignores terrain cost, but doesn't ignore first strikes (so he could be worse against Drill units)
    Ger: Stable with double XP (+4)

    The starting techs have rather poor synergy for anything but building Chariots, and the whole package is geared for an early bankruptcy, be it by peacefully rexing and losing out on the uniques or by rushing someone. :shifty:
    AGG is of course kind of awkward coupled with these horse uniques, but I guess a cheap barracks and stronger fogbust warriors are still stronger than PRO. :)

    This start has terrible commerce (and not exactly great food either), but forests can be chopped into units and the suspicious plains tile in the west is suspicious... the PH in the southweast seems to lack a forest as well.

    Of course I also could try moving the settler just somewhere, anywhere else while retaining the cows, 2NE or something like that. Perhaps the Scout should go to the grass hill SW of the settler instead to uncover that bald one next to it.


    ... at least it's an AH start, therefore fitting for Mongolia. I will be trying to play this one slower, especially the important early turns.


    Link to summarizing ALC Thread: Here.
    Save has also been attached now.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ah..so you finish DeG game. Just looked at it but not analyzed. I'd like to see you improve on those dates. Appears you were going for Space but ended up with Diplo, so seems some priorities may have been misplaced early on. But looks like good things too. You were rather large empire, so use you pulled out the beat stick at some point.

    GK just calls for some Keshik fun here, as long as you are not isolated. Never know wtih Fractal (map I play often by the way). You could be isolated or sometimes you even get Pangaea like Fractal maps. Hopefully, you have some neighbors here to unleash the hordes.

    Keshiks bonus makes them great for tactics in war. You can often use element of surprise nicely and escape in tougher situations.

    Not overly pleased with this start. Settling coastal here is kinda meh with no seafood. I might look to move inland here while keeping both cows. Unfortunately, scout is not in a prime postion, but I've move him E like on the hill. I might look to move East of the cows on one of those tiles. Seems almost anything could be better.

    At least you have an AH start for cows and, hopefully, horses. You start with Hunting so can tech AH immediately. (possible lost worker turns though but not much you can do about it with someone like GK, at least you can make roads)

    Oh..and don't get caught up with things like bankruptcy and all that right now. If you are playing right that should not be a concern. Get some advice after playing a short bit and let the experts chime in.

    edit: a little hidden hint you can choose to look at or not regarding start move

    Spoiler :
    I started playing. Made the scout move you suggested. You'll see what I mean, but I kinda moved blindly to settle 1E of cows. (Well, it would otherwise clearly be not worse than the current position, but with scout move you may have chosen to SIP). So anyway, settling 1E of cows will be ..um..much nicer :)


    edit2:

    Oh yeah Choeimok (not really a spoiler)
    Spoiler :
    this will be a fun map.. Keshiks will get exercise. Great map for you
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  3. Arvoreniad

    Arvoreniad Chieftain

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    This isn't a great start, but that's probably a good thing at this point - you can learn more without having to raise the difficulty a whole level.

    I haven't opened the map yet, but definitely agree with Lymond, those unforested plains look very suspicious. Hopefully it's horse and not a metal, but should be fine for a Keshik rush either way as there's plenty of time to settle another city or two. A move inland seems the way to go - it could hardly be any worse than what you have at the moment.

    I'll follow this and help out as best I can.
     
  4. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    Nothing serious from me :D ...
    Spoiler :
    Totally messed up after Peter 3/4 (3 cities, 1 left) and 1/2 Persia (2 cities, 2 left) (long time off normal speed, normal map size and tech trading), got little bit stuck at 8 cities. But from original save moving scout to E hill seems logical move to me and.. oh my, thats very nice city there (Fish, 2x cow, stone and iron). Got lot of failgold from GW, Pyramids (actualy built exactly 1 T before HR so could get out units faster with Police State) and Moai later (inserting Keshiks replacement somewhere) so could tech at 100% for some good time :D
    Fun map for sure (just would need some "training" games on regular settings after loooong hrs with Mara-Huge-17AI-no tech trading)
     
  5. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    @lymond: East of Settler actually looks like a better move than 2N of Scout which I originally thought of, since the lake and forest make moving north rather inconvenient. Even if that desert is a Floodplain (kind of looks like there's a river east of it), I will not have it directly in my capital anyway.
    I think 1SE should be better than 1E since the outlines of the tiles would either be revealed by that as well or by moving the settler on the cow, and 1 SE has 2 tiles that might have resources.

    Let's see if and how fun the map will be :)

    @Arvoreniad: If a strategic resource pops on that plains tile I will probably move off of, I can always place the second city there... let's see, could also just be Uranium.... or nothing, even.

    @elmurics: I actually clicked on the spoiler kind of expecting it to be a joke rather than map content and immediately closed it again after seeing the word "Peter" and realizing that probably was not the case. :hammer2: Note to self, no longer open spoilers unless explicitly stated they're safe.



    Stone and coast... I thought that tile would be a hill, apparently it is not.
    Well, so much for moving inland... moving NEN would lose me the stone (not sure if I will be building lots of stone wonders this game, but it's not a bad tile since this will be :hammers: city anyway), be 1 off coast and maybe ruin seafood. Don't want to move 2 turns, either.
    That leaves N2E (gamble for resources in fog) and SIP (keeping the empty plain and +2 :health: from lake adjacency). 2NE is also coastal, but a grass tile, I don't have that many of these.
     
  6. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    Sorry for that :) Joke was that i research HB and.... forgot that need Archery too :D Damm...
     
  7. tycoonist

    tycoonist Chieftain

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    I've finished playing the game now. I'll wait to post my results till later on I think. It was a fun game.

    On the subject of the start, a start like this is perfect for early aggression as Genghis in my opinion: Double cows is decent since you want to go AH for potential horses anyway, you have plenty of wood to chop out Keshiks if you do find horse (or axe/swords if you don't :devil:), and enough food to run at max production with a few mines at size 5. 16H per turn at size 5 is pretty bonkers really, though you won't be able to whip that much given the lack of food.
     
  8. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Spoiler Turn 1 / 3960 BC :
    I did end up opting for N2E, just for the chance at more resources it provides while keeping the stone which 2NE wouldn't, even at the risk of having even more coast and less forests...

    ... and ended up being pleasantly surprised (very much so) :eek: - I was hoping to maybe get one seafood by taking this gamble... That was really lucky... yet the blue circle is on the tile the settler started on.



    Tech-wise, it's actually kind of awkward - I want AH, I want BW, I want Fishing, and I have no idea about the order.
    Since commerce from the clams (I think coast clam is better than ocean Fish?) will be my only decent source of research only on, I probably should get Fishing relatively early, maybe second.

    So...
    AH -> Fishing -> Mining -> BW (Masonry?) and Worker -> Warrior -> WB?

    I think 2 SE of the Scout (a plains hill forest) is going to be the end of that peninsula, might as well explore it before heading north. NO obviously great second city spot yet, but that one hill next to the desert does have 1 commerce, so maybe there's a good spot up there. Seems more interesting than the directly northern jungle for now.
     
  9. Imploding

    Imploding Chieftain

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    Hi nice series you got going! Gl hf!

    Spoiler :

    A good discussion about where to put your settler, and nice reasoning! which ended up giving you a monster hammer/food capitol with stone! That move alone will give an enormous impact on the game overall.. I like it! :)

    About research.. i would go for AH, then fishing.. since the only thing your spot needs are commerse. Fishing will give a 2 x 2f2c tiles to work of early.. and you can easily get out a work boat or 2 working the double cows and while growing your cap :)

     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  10. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Not sure if it needs to be in spoiler, just thoughts on your new position. @Choeimok

    Spoiler :


    Tech will be a bit awkward, but AH first and then Fishing should be fine. I would build a settler at size 2 working both cows, worker can road into second city then. You are imperialistic and a quick settler boosted by cow-hammers will help boost your commerce a bit (as long as you don't settle too far away).

    If you find horses, you could settle them straight away. Fishing second since production won't be the biggest issue with the cows and (possibly) working horses somewhere. You want some early commerce though, especially if you are going for possible Keshiks.

    Might aswell improve clams first for commerce if you already have the cows online. Food is not your biggest problem in this case. Don't hestitate to work the lake and/or coast (1f2c) if you do go for Keshiks.

    I think you will do a few more updates before that though, so can still discuss the approach then. No point in discussing Keshiks when we don't know if you have horses yet ;). However, I might be tempted to go straight for HBR after AH, Fishing and Mining. Possibly Masonry to get some failgold with the stone (not bothering with finishing something might be good practice). But 200+ gold will help you get to writing after that.

    If going that route, I would skip writing, only settle a 2nd city (3rd only if there is some gold maybe) and just go for it. With Kublai it would be a different matter, but for libraries you would need Writing and Bronze Working, which will delay everything by quite a while. Don't think the 2 scientists would speed it up under these circumstances. Note that you could do all that and still be early enough with Keshiks, but on Immortal I would definitely take the described route. (Not saying it's optimal).

     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  11. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    The spoiler was mostly for not filling up the page with big images... so it does seem like the most feasible tech path right now. :)

    Spoiler Turn 28/ 2880 BC :

    While my Scout is still returning from the southern peninsula (it does have a fish, ocean fish though - I guess it's a Moai spot but not an immediate priority, I meet...

    ... Mr. Spoiler, coming from the NW. It's only Turn 5 but he does have a Scout.



    Looks like between him and me, there's almost nothing but jungle - he can't be much further north since he reached me on Turn 5 and this is kind of dense. Scout almost dies from the Lion, I want to find Peter's borders before healing him.



    Oh wow, this guy needs to die. Boxed in already... The Scout probably will kick the bucket now, healing for 8 turns wouldn't have worked anyway with the panther that close so I think searching Moscow was the right thing...


    Got the worker. I think I will partially road the grass cow, pasture the other cow and postpone the warrior until after the Workboat. Growing seems like a higher priority than hammers right now, I want to be working all 4 food sources and probably adopt Slavery immediately when getting BW.

    Also, we do indeed have horses, though not on the suspicious plains tile - The horse city should probably go on the grass tile between Horse and Rice... though settling on the jungle next to the river would be stronger long-term. I would have to squeeze in Mysticism and sacrifice a forest or a whip.
    Also changed Karakorum to the 3 food cow.


    So, it's between the brown and green dots up there - brown is kind of crappy long-term, but saves the border pop. Don't like the idea of settling it further south with no food.
    Blue dot in the south is the Moai location which can wait a bit - could be nice to have for unit production by working Fish + PHs, but also requires Mysticism to be worth anything.


    Pasture is completed the same turn Fishing is researched... I think I can afford improving the clam before getting my Settler out, I don't want to improve the Fish yet before that - if I dally to much and Peter gets that spot, I'm already screwed. So production is switched to the WB.

    Tech-wise... Mining has little direct benefits since I only have one bald hill, but I definitely want BW. Mysticism is more intriguing than it should be, but right now it's too early. Archery can wait since there's no real barb threat at all and for HBR it's way too early.
    I will go for Mining, then probably Mysticism -> Writing -> HBR -> Archery? Since HBR is kind of expensive, a Library might be very nice to have... In that case, I'll probably also settle Blue before attacking.


    I'll be size 3 the same turn I will improve the Clam... :)
    Worker will finish the PC road and then mine that hill.
    Actually though, the warrior will only take 2 turns to build with my 6 hammers (already has 4), so I won't be building the Settler at size 4. Maybe I should road the grass cow before bothering with the hill instead. Expecting to finish the Settler before BW.



    So now, do I actually want BW? I actually could get Writing first to get a quick Library, which might be more helpful than employing the whip here - working the Cow, Cow and Clam and 2 scientists at size 5 seems decent. It would also allow me to scout out Peter and if there's anything north of him. BW->Mysticism would allow me to settle the green dot at a higher degree of comfort, which will be an excellent long-term city. Alternatively, I could skip BW until later, settle Green and slow build the monument with the plains forest...?
    Normally I don't mind screwing my long-term placement to get a good first ring, but Green dot is so much juicier... :sad:

    I derped at this point while still uncertain and ended the turn to see how many turns it would take to build the settler at size 3, which caused 12 beakers to randomly go into Archery. :blush: That's not terrible because Archery definitely is on the teching plan, but not optimal either.


    7 turns, not too shabby.

    Worker probably should mine the hill now, I don't want to go out to the NE with him to road while that Panther is still outside.

    After the Settler, I'm going to want to grow to size 5, but also get a second Worker out. Growth only takes 4 turns even without a Granary, so I could finish the second WB or two warriors (which would be enough to fogbust the remaining non-red land), get the Worker at 4 and then grow to 5.


    Which leaves the tech and settling (there actually is the alternative to settle a really crappy city/fishing village 1S of the horses and settle green later) decisions open.
    Mysticism would take 7 turns (so would finish way before the Settler could get to the spot), both BW and Writing take 13. Settler could settle Brown in 12 turns from now (3 to walk), Green in 13. HBR is 27 turns away at current tech "speed" - I definitely want Writing before that.

    Peter probably has more land in the north since he's not constantly hugging my borders with explorers. EP ratio is 92:108, so he probably has been using the slider but doesn't know anyone or hasn't known anyone for particularly long.
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Cheomok
    Spoiler :
    I think it a mistake to disrupt your fast setler production for a wb. What you lost here was the ability to get up a quick second city that would already be working on other things in prep for war. You really only need 2 cities here for now. fish city S can be settled a little later. Just use it for fail gold with TGW (once stone hooked up), then build Maoi with a chop and PH mine..

    My priority would be Masonry right now. BW is not a priority at this point as you have good production and no barb threat, and horse. (note: I did not even switch to slavery until after MIds completed)

    Next path should obviously be HBR. Alternate approach could be just to keel Peter with chariots, but based on his Espionage, there are unmet AIs, so you could get a Keshik train going.

    OH..I would settle 2nd city on desert tile. Horse in first ring (you won't have culture in that city for a long time.) and city can share cows at times from cap. These settling decision are very important. The spot you have dotmapped has absolutely nothing and will have absolutely nothing for a very long time. In a game where snowballing is king, that is a snowball of nothing into a whole lot of nothing later on. Try to be more judicious in how you settle cities. Your first settled city should always be productive in some way. Don't ever be afraid to overlap cities and use tile sharing.

    Anyway, your 1st priority here is putting yourself in a position to kill Peter asap. Get that horse, but don't worry about him settling the area north of you. You got what you need to keeeel him.

    Note: Use Scout and 1st warrior to spawnbust the area. You should have no barb issue here. I cannot tell from the screen shots where you have placed your spawnbusters, but you don't have your 1st city spot protected from barb spawn.

    Lastly, start to note the bits of hammer overflow you get from finishing an item, like a warrior. When your first warrior has finished, check the OF. Put that turn into settler (and IMP gives bonus to those hammers)

    I would have finished 1st warrior here and started settler. If not yet size two for second cow, use placeholder item (warrior/wb) to grow to size two. Finish settler.

    So to point, while you may assume "7 turn settler is nice", the point is that your settler should already be close to finished...not 8 to 9 turns from now...that is a long time
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  13. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    @Choeimok my post above yours was about your game by the way, I realized it might not have been clear since I didn't adress you directly outside of the spoiler ;). So pretty much my comment on your situation is above already, nothing changed :)

    On settling the 2nd city...

    Spoiler :


    +1 for the desert tile with horses in first ring, stealing grassland cows from capital. Your happy cap is 5, you don't need 4 food resources there.

    Would tech Masonry now and go straight for Horseback Riding with just 2 cities after that. And work all commerce tiles I can.

     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  14. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Just a thought

    Spoiler thought!! :

    You do realise the fish resource offers more food than the clams? Going clams first is a mistake.

    Agree with Lymond on settler. Use your traits when you have all those hammers. 8-9 turns is a long delay!

    My gut would be to settle between the horse and rice. Or SE of the horse to share cows. Having to wait for a border pop would be annoying. I think a chariot rush could also work here.

    Get the basics right!
     
  15. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Spoiler Replies on the various topics in no particular order :

    Settler at size 2: Is that really common practice with imperialistic leaders? I usually favour growth to get to a decent size and then sustain a solid worker/settler output - especially since this is a Hunting start and I'm pretty sure I couldn't get that Warrior out before growing to 2 without deliberately stunting my growth by working hills.... and growing from 2 to 3 didn't take very long since I'm only working food.

    City placement: 1 SE of the horses is actually quite appealing, that way I can still settle the very nice mid-term commerce spot / academy candidate later on. While I do know that it's often necessary to comprimise early city placements to get more stuff in the first ring, settling on the desert tile just feels kind of awkward to me. Misses the river, wastes a lot of tiles long-term (even if it's just coast, but I do like my fishing villages that will sometimes get whipped and still produce usually 30-50 beakers or wealth at size ~10 - not great cities but well worth the settler and upkeep costs in most circumstances). And it's nicer than settling between Horse and Rice (previously brown dot) because the rice is useless for a long time anyway and, again, that one also blocks the river.


    Fish vs Clam: I was pretty sure the Clam would give +1 commerce compared to regular coast, but I'm just seeing it doesn't, it's just 4 food, 2 commerce. :confused: Not sure where I got that from, then (some mod maybe?). It actually has the same output as Crab according to the In-Game Wiki now that I'm looking, I remembered Crab tiles to be inferior by having the same food but no commerce boost. :crazyeye:
    So for a 4:food:3:commerce: Clam against a 5:food:1:commerce: Fish, I definitely would have picked the Clam in this situation, this way it's more debatable since even with my terrible commerce situation, 1 :commerce: is not all that much.
    Still a bit rusty, I knew this at some point... :shifty:


    Fogbusting: Right now I don't have any guys, because my Scout died to the Panther early on. :blush: Plan was to march the Warrior, who is just now about to finish, to the city spot, and fogbust the eastern part after getting the settler out, probably with a Warrior from city #2. I also need a city guard to get to size 5, of course. Far south can actually be fogbusted by a border pop, I think. Right now, the Palace is still at +2 culture, even though it's slightly older than 1000 years :)confused:), but it should switch over and I should get my border pop in ~12 turns. (right now it's 23). I'll put on guy on the green dot in the jungle after helping to found Beshbalik and one on the hill between the dyes.

    Hammer Overflow: I actually did use overflow for Workers and Settlers in the previous game, but here I put the WB overflow into the queued Warrior because, well, he was already queued so I didn't notice. Probably that was a mistake since it loses out on Growth turns.

    Chariot Rush?: They are always so bloody :sad: Then again, my terrible research rate right now (Masonry 9 turns, HBR 27!! turns, Archery 6 turns) makes it an option.


    Can't say for sure, but I think that's probably not a hill. If he is on a hill, I would need like, what, 12 Chariots? I have found 2 Chariots per Archer to be a bit too optimistic often, even against non-Pro leaders.

    Tech: Depends on the rush choice, I guess. Commerce is going to get slightly better from the fish, the trade route, the river mine and maybe the lake (maybe 15-17 instead of 11 BPT), but HBR+Archery is a biiig time investment (maybe not >30 turns, but still a long time), and I still don't have BW, Writing or even Agriculture after that. I guess Masonry it's fine since that's not a bad tile and a way to make some money while waiting, unless I do decide on the Chariots. Not getting writing unfortunately makes it difficult to know if Peter has copper for Spears, unless he's foolish enough to parade them on or outside his borders or say "Soon my numberless Axe/Spearmen will destroy you" as he's currently saying for Archers. He's not in Slavery yet, but I'm 99% certain Russia starts with Hunting+Mining, optimal Spearman conditions. If he has Copper in Moscow, there's no way I can field a significant number of Chariots before he has a Spear or two - so that would favour Keshiks again.


    Espionage: Doesn't he have more points on me than I do on him? How does that indicate him having met someone? :confused:
     
  16. Arvoreniad

    Arvoreniad Chieftain

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    @Choeimok
    Spoiler :

    I would definitely start a settler at size 2 here, even building a settler at size 1 is a valid play with an IMP leader and a good hammer tile. Working the two cows will get it out very quickly, and settling earlier is particularly important in this case since you want to have the city as well developed as possible to contribute to the Keshik rush.

    In terms of city placement, I think 1 SE of the horse would be ok but the desert tile may be better, it has an extra forest and will be a good city long term. Remember that you'll probably burn through 1-2 civs at the least with keshiks so you'll have new and better lands to settle - your academy can be built elsewhere and you will probably want to be settling closer to the AI beyond Peter in order to claim land rather than building fishing villages.

    Clam doesn't give an extra commerce, you'll be better off with the food from the fish.

    Fogbusting shouldn't be hard here, once the horse city is up just a warrior in the north is all that might be needed.

    Techwise, I would get writing before HBR, then build a library in Karakorum and run two scientists. The extra beakers will help a lot with getting to HBR with this commerce-poor start and the GS (should come in just before HBR) will help you bulb something or build an academy to keep the economy running. Writing will also allow you to OB with Peter and scout his lands to plan your rush.

    Masonry is a real toss-up here. If Karakorum is going to have free turns to build wonders whilst you tech HBR, then the failgold from Stonehenge or GW could be very helpful in keeping your economy going. But if you won't have that chance then it's possibly an unnecessary tech until after HBR (should be next tho, probably still time to grab the Mids on Monarch).

    Make sure you use the whip plenty to get your infrastructure up quickly in Karakorum, it'll grow back quickly with all that food.
     
  17. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    After the initial indecisiveness, I played a bit more at once than what should maybe have been a turnset... Not as consequently played as one could have done, but I'd still call it a good position.
    Spoiler Turn 90 / 625 BC :

    Got a bit scared here, but my warrior lucked out and won both battles with 1.4 health left. Losing not just one but my first two units to Panthers would have been really painful.


    I have a Warrior selected here but decided to put the overflow into a Worker instead. I don't want to build him as I need to grow.


    Beshbalik is settled and steals the cow. Building Warriors in both cities right now, though I think I want the WB in the capital first to speed growth. For Barb duties, 2 Warriors will be sufficient. The painful road HBR is started - the EP against Peter is now actually in my favor (128 vs 108), so he definitely knows a second AI - reason enough to opt out of the messy chariot rush.


    Peter settles in my direction - the upside of that is that it removes the need for a fogbuster in that place. will still finish the Warrior already started in the capital, would be a waste of hammers.


    With Barracks in my cities and no dire need of any other builds, I queue up the Masonry wonders... and realize I have been saving money for a bit longer than just one turn. :smoke:



    For lack of better building projects, I ended up building the wall... and the Russians will pay for it, of course. .. eventually.
    So I failed the failgold, but it will still give GG points and the border pop, at least. :shifty:


    HBR finishes halfway to the Pyramids... I might as well get them at this point...? I can finish in 5 turns by starving while still getting Archery the same turn, which loses me nothing of value right now since I still lack BW.
    Workers are building pretty roads because I have no other worker techs.


    BW seems like a no-brainer here...



    The Mids are finished. That Ger is a bit delayed, but I think it should be worth it. Peter also teching BW and still at 2 cities.


    As BW completes, I switch civics during the Keshik buildup. I think I want around 7 Keshiks. Karakorum was unhappy for maybe 2 more turns here. Queuing up Writing.


    I declare with 7 Keshiks. Didn't Whip because I was mostly working mines and almost chopping out one a turn. Well, not always and sometimes I worked forest hills so not 100% ideal. Peter has a third city now. Shoved in a Settler in between in Karakorum.



    Single unpromoted Archer in here, but of course I lose a 2 star Keshik at 77 or so % odds.
    Writing finishes, I queue Pottery.


    2 Archers, one has CG1. He will probably whip another. I still have good odds here even if I needed 2x his forces at the last city.



    Easy so far. :hammer: Got lucky with a 33% win from the Withdraw guy against the good Archer.
    Also lucky that he has no metal units, of course.


    Hiding in a corner doesn't really work against Keshiks... :scan:
    I kind of need to heal a bit before moving on so one guy gets promoted to Medic 1.


    The cottage spot, at last, since the red guy's egopolis did burn. Pottery in 3...



    This looks like an autoraze, but he does have 3 Archers... :sad: Some scouting will show if the city looks worthwhile.



    Oh! Looks like a Persian, maybe it's Pacal.


    You're not teal...



    So Novgorod has a pretty terrible first ring, but it's also the only way to not waste that Fish, and it has Gold. So I'm wondering if I should attack, possibly lose Keshiks, and autoraze, or if I should take a ceasefire (better than 10 turn peace to me) and prepare for an assault on the unknown teal guy.
    + faster attack on teal
    + I can always take it later and Peter is already no longer a threat in his sandbowl there, unlikely to tech anywhere even with that gold.
    - some :mad: in Moscow (should have ~300 Russian culture based on Karakorum's values) and Turfan (just a bit of culture, but anything is more than my 0)... but I have a nice buffer from Representation.
    - I will have to settle purple dot to prevent him from blocking me off fairly soon.
    - Odds seem pretty good even with the unpromoted guy while there still is no culture



    The heartland with 2 more city spots to be filled (Blue=Moai with 2 Plains Hills and an Ocean Fish), Orange=Foodless jungle filler with Dyes -> low-key commerce city with IW, becomes interesting with Calendar.
    If I decide to get a Settler, I could change production.
    Moscow also has a Library, but is currently still working its hills.
    Also should redistribute the tiles between Turfan and Beshbalik - Beshbalik should have been working the unused river mine instead of the dry ones for a while... [pimp]


    Moscow, purple dot and the edge of the northern wastelands. The Archer was a filler build that still has no hammers, I can also move back my fogbuster from the south since I have the wall anyway. If I peace out Peter, I do need a defender for my purple city though. Not sure what to specialize this city on, it's quite well-rounded.

    So that is kind of the main question.
    Tech-wise, I'm going to want Agriculture (it's almost 1 AD...), Maths and IW... Mysticism wouldn't be bad either at this point though. Ramesses does not have Alphabet.

    I'm thinking Pottery -> Mysticism -> IW or Maths -> Currency or Calendar, hopefully trading for Agri at some point. Or at least it won't take long to research.
    Keshik-wise, I have 7 in my stack (one still slightly wounded) and one still in the south. Not all that much but if Teal is similarly weak to Peter... If it's Pacal with Holkans or Cyrus/Darius with metal, I should probably get more Keshiks before declaring... or take the weaker cities while waiting for reinforcements.

    I also will have a General in 2 battles already - Keshik supermedic? As mentioned, I do have a Medic 1 guy already.

    The 2 wonders are probably going to be a point of complaint, but I had nothing else to build for a while and slowing down the rush slightly for those last few Mids turns seemed like a fair trade to me. What else should I have done, build Workers and Settlers for later? An army of Warriors or a fleet of Work Boats?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  18. Arvoreniad

    Arvoreniad Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    @Choeimok
    Spoiler :

    A pretty good turnset I think. You probably should have used the whip more but the Monarch AI is quite weak and Keshiks are quite strong so it went fine anyway. You'd have been better off just taking the failgold from GW but it was good to get the Mids I think. At this point you seem a bit behind in tech so you might want to switch into Rep for a little while and run scientists in your main cities. A GS from that would be handy too.

    Definitely take out Peter's last city, get him out of the game. Otherwise you'll have to deal with him later and in the meantime you'll have "we yearn to join our motherland unhappiness" in Moscow. Try to scout the teal guy's border cities (I can't tell if he's Pacal or Cyrus/Darius). You have plenty of excess population in your core cities, so even if it is Pacal, you should be able to whip out some Combat I/Shock keshiks and clean up his holkans ok. Even if you have to whip your hands bloody to take him out, it's probably worth it to defeat 2 AI and put yourself in a winning position by 1 AD.

    After that (assuming there are no other religions on the continent), you could switch into Buddhism, get Ramesses to friendly (if he's the last AI on the continent he may not trade techs otherwise), and tech a bit while peacefully expanding. Currency should be beelined ASAP after pottery to get your economy going. Once Pacal is gone, any stone wonders can be built for failgold to help you along if needed. Representation scientists are also very powerful - one of the best benefits of the Mids.

    Long term, after some teching and expansion, Ramesses could be taken out with Cuirs and the game would be yours from there.
     
  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    20,518
    @Choemok

    Spoiler :
    Yeah..you really shoulda succeeded in failing the GW. GW is totally useless here.

    I'd say Sailing is a priority for GLH, probably in cap. GLH very strong on this map I built Mids in horse city and GLH in cap.

    Then Alpha for back fill techs like IW, Myst and whatever else. Do not tech things like IW..rare that you would. Maths is ok to tech on this level though and then Currency and so forth, although you may be able to trade for Maths after Alpha.

    Also, ofc, you can keep war machine going. Eventually transition much of unit production to newer cities.

    Moscow not great, but possible Bureau cap. (edit: probably should be clear here. Moscow is actually a very nice city, but not super Bureau cap. Still it seems the best possible candidate for that. Also, makes a nice NE city. So either cottage it or farm it all depending on what you decide. Not sure if AIs are on one landmass, but you can probably kill the land mass with just Keshiks easily. But on Fractal you may not Astro eventually so longer game. Bulbing can help with Astro though.

    Nice job on Peter

    yeah, I always like SuperMedic first, but you could also hold him for a while to see what your next move it since Peter war is over or almost over. GK can get a lot of GGs. So another good trick with GGs to hold them for promos on a small stack of injury units to heal them up quicker.

    2 Wonders a complaint? You mean GW and Mids. GW would be a complaint for completing it. You missed a fantastic opportunity for lots of fail gold on a useless wonder that AIs prioritize early almost not matter the level.

    Mids on the other hand is a no brainer with stone. Absolutely great that you got it. Representation is Great to run early.

    I probably would have gone BW before Keshiks for chops and mines, but seems ok.

    Oh..Archer in Moscow? Ask yourself if that is needed. I saw you building quite a few warriors earlier so you may have one available for MP, or move that guy up from rice city which will take quite some time before it needs MP. Always ask yourself if something like that is needed or if you have extra useless units around. Try not to build things that you don't really need.

    Lastly, note that there is an AI near Novgorod. Meet him/her. Who could that be and should they bow to the might of Genghis Choeimok?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    22,202
    Location:
    UK
    Spoiler Thoughts :

    So you probably needed a bit more thought on this map.

    Yes happiness is an issue here. Guess you have rep civic to help. Otherwise HR civic or Calendar. At present Rep civic is a must long term for happiness and science.

    Slow expansion from you. Never base your expansion on Monarch AI. This is a rookie mistake that will punish you on higher levels. 4 cities by 675bc with a imp leader is not great.

    Mids is great but with all those forest to chop you could of had it much sooner. As Lymond suggests was the capital the best spot? I always like a clean GP farm for my main food city.

    Not a fan of the great wall just because you lack builds. Looks like you will end up with a great spy here. Not great choice on Monarch. The Monarch Ai are painfully slow at teching. Great scientist is much better here. I agree on Lymonds alphabet tech to back fill.

    Economy plan? What is your plan here?? You have no cottages at all. To me that suggests you need to be running specialists for science. 1AD agriculture and maths is an issue for me.
    You don't need cuirs for next AI. Your UU unit is good for next 1-2 AI here.

    Note you have not met the blue AI NW of the Russian city. Koreans??

    I would 100% still be expanding here. Building or capturing more cities. 4-5 cities by 1ad is very low. 6-8 is a minimum guide. On higher levels more land/cities = game winner.


     

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