Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by ushram, Feb 18, 2009.
Anyone know what this event does exactly?
You may find this thread helpful:
I followed that thread for a while, and if I recall correctly they never actually arrived at a conclusion (it shot off in the direction of morality). I don't feel like double checking 9 pages, though.
There are actually two "werewolf attacking the castle" events. In one, you can shove someone off of the parapet to become werewolf food. In another you close a gate and sacrifice one of your men. I have never seen these events do anything. The only werewolf event I have seen do something is the "This man may be a werewolf! Should we lock him up?" event. A barbarian werewolf started roaming the countryside. I actually liked that outcome. I just wish I had had a beastmaster...
It got a bit more information toward the end, but by that time, most people were ignoring it due to the OT morality discussion.
Someone posted that they thought the AC went up 3 percent when he pushed the guy off the wall, but couldn't confirm it. Here's the post:
Unfortunately, never got a confirmation of that.
Spoiler for the event :
Choose whatever you like. It has no consequenses.
Why waste 6 subjects when you can keep 5 of them? It is not much of a moral question.
It is an interesting moral dilemma actually.
Ethne tossed in her sleep. She was haunted with visions of wicked step-sisters, Sidney in her blue and yellow dress, Dain, and a dinner table that extended into darkness. Tomorrow she would have to decide if she was going to commit her people to a war against the Infernal that many would never return from. If she didn't the Infernals would crush the Amurites, who were already on the verge of collapse. But if she joined the war it would escalate further and even more would die.
In her dream Hyborem sat at the end of the dinner table.
"Your logic guides you to one decision, and your morality to another." Hyborem stated.
"Yes." Ethne found herself unable to lie to the Lord of the Balors.
"Morality is an illusion, a dream without reason. It is the shifting wind." There was no trace of magical persuasion in Hyborem's voice and Ethne was free to respond as she wanted.
"A queen must be more than an accountant emotionlessly weighing one option against each other. Morality sets our goals, logic tells us how to achieve them."
Hyborem smiled, though it was empty of emotion.
"Imagine that you stand on your palace wall..."
As Hyborem spoke Ethne could see the city surrounding her palace. It was a quiet autumn night and the city was lit by occasional lanterns and moonlight. Then guard bells rang out. Ethne could see men running along the street. Five ran along the palace walls seeking the security of the palace gate. Another man ran off into the city.
Guards along the palace walls starting shouting warnings and a werewolf lumbered out of the shadows, chasing after the group of five men. The five men rushed through the palace gate and the men called for Ethne's order, if they should drop the gate portcullis or not.
"If you close the portcullis" Hyborem's voice cut through the scene, "the five will live, but the werewolf will turn on the single man running into the city and kill him. You save five men, but you doom another. What is the morale thing to do?"
"I would drop the portcullis and save the five men" Ethne answered. As she did she saw the scene play out. The werewolf turned and cut down the single man before fleeing the city.
The scene changed, once again Ethne stood on the palace wall, and once again the guard bells started ringing. Five men ran along the palace wall, but there was no man running into the city. Instead a man stood beside her on the wall, watching the attack below.
This time the werewolf was closer, the five men wouldn't be able to reach the palace gate in time.
Hyborem's voice cut in again, "Again five men will die if you do nothing. Again you can save them by sacrificing one man. But this time you must push that man off the palace wall. If you push him he will fall in front of the werewolf, who will stop to kill him, giving the five men enough time to get into the palace. What is the morale thing to do?"
"I would not push the man off the castle wall." Ethne said confused.
"This is the illusion of morality" Hyborem said as the scene faded back to the room with the table between them, "In both cases you have the same options, but you make different decisions in the name of morality. If you want to stand against the Infernal do it because it will save the most lives, it will increase your power, you will gain the treasures of hell. But do not allow your throne to be ruled by the wind."
Ethne awoke, it was dawn and her meeting with the Amurite diplomats was a few hours away. She didn't feel like she had gotten any sleep at all, and the day was only going to get worse...
Its the pedia entry for Hyborems Whisper.
Very well done; one of my favorite stories in the pedia.
Naturally, this is correct.
Whoops, realized I didn't wrap it in quote boxes and all like I was intending to.
Got carried away once I finished formatting it for the forums and just posted
Lawl. I almost said "it should be in the pedia somewhere"
Moral is like the Wind.
That sounds quite true. As well as Good and Evil are only names for too many times the same "thing" or people.
Neutral would be, to do nothing. If the five people are not fast enough, that's Darwinism: Survival of the fittest, in this case, the werewolf is the fittest. It's not the fault of Ethne, that the werewolf attacks, but it would be her fault to kill one men.
The other example is more difficult. If she let drop the portculls, five are saved, but it was her order, that doomed another one. But if she did nothing, five would be killed.
Therefore it depends. She could be neutral and let the portculls open, let fate or the werewolf (as the hand of fate), decide who will die, and how many.
One other interesting question is: what would the one man do, if he was doomed? shall he just fail to run away and die? What about the following scene:
One Man stands in front of the werewolf: "Stop! Stop it now! you strong beast! You don't need to kill me, you want to have allies. Give me your gift, make me one of yours and together we will make this city our realm."
It's at least possible that the werewolf says: "hm well okay you're right."
Would it be Evil of the One Man to say this to the werewolf? Or would it be a way out, of his dilemma: again survival of the fittest.
(I read the thread which is linked, and it was an interesting lecture, my answer above is just a thought about neutrality and if Good and Evil are not more than an illusion.)
(so please, don't kill me for posting it )
The ruler has one other choice in that second scenario that Hyborem presented. (Not in-game, but theoretically)
She could jump.
Indeed, Hyborem is creating a false dilemma. Not surprising, considering. But I imagine a well educated ruler would see through his deception.
If I recall correctly, someone on the other thread has mentioned that, dropping the man down the balcony increases the AC by 5. I guess it does make sense, since it is Hyborem that suggests doing so.
To kill yourself, to save 5 others MAY sound as a good idea at first. very "honorable" and "heroic".
On the other hand, is killing yourself the same as killing someone else. The Person is not there anymore. with all the consequences.
Who tells you that your life is less important, than the life of these five person? Especially as the ruler of a dark fantasy empire, the last standing hope against Demons and Dragons...
Some Elohim People COULD object the descicion of their leader to kill herself to save 5 random people.
Given how many of the rulers in this game are powerful characters in their own right it's kind of silly to have this decision at all, at least half of them could kill the werewolf themselves without issue
Of course Basium would probably let all the men die since they'd be more powerful as angels and *then* kill the werewolf himself
Or perhaps the memory of a leader who would sacrifice herself for any of her followers is the type of catalyst needed to make real change in the world. Martyrdom is a powerful force.
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