A worrisome thought on the 1upt aspect...

Status
Not open for further replies.

SkyknightXi

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
29
I remember reading that the head designer was an avid enough fan of Panzer General to impel that particular rule into the game.

The problem is, Panzer General is a pure military game. The Civilization games...aren't. Or at least, they're not supposed to be. So the question becomes, why would you want to model the game ON a wargame in such a fundamental fashion?! Are the diplomacy, culture, and technology win conditions as nothing, somehow?

Unless...this was his idea of updating PG from 1994 to 2011. Which only makes sense if he really did see Civilization as a wargame first and foremost. Rather odd, even if Firaxis was depending on the rest of the design team to ensure the validity of the rest of the win conditions. But it's still a worrisome bias in the lead designer, for those of us who aim at one of the non-military conditions first and foremost (e.g. me and technology).
 
I am on the verge of downright ignoring this thread altogether. The perceived "issue" has been discussed to death for YEARS NOW. I don't see how 1UPT hurts the other aspects of the game, I have had many peaceful games now with G+K. You never take a closer look at the actual gameplay implications, your entire post is based on the logic that if CiV took something from a wargame, then it becomes a wargame, which makes absolutely NO SENSE. By that logic DooM is a space-sim because it was inspired by Wing Commander.
:hmm::hmm::hmm:

So yeah, cool story.
 
Heh only Doom 3. I won't be like Doomguy, walking around Phobos without Oxygen or a pressure-suit anytime soon :nuke:...

1upt is annoying. It limits tactical(and mudayne) movement, as well as confuddles the ai to no end. It imposes an unrealistic limitation that snorts at the concept of 1-tile-many-miles, and it even with extra movement per-turn(2 for melee instead of 1) it does more to bruden an already taxed system...

But as my friend above has stated, this is not new. I am in favor of increasing penalties for 'stationing' multiple units on one tile, but not eliminating the possibility of a SOD althogether. While this system adds a little new flavor to the series, I personally feel this harkens to warhammer 4000 or some such tabletop...
 
Heh only Doom 3. I won't be like Doomguy, walking around Phobos without Oxygen or a pressure-suit anytime soon :nuke:...

1upt is annoying. It limits tactical(and mudayne) movement, as well as confuddles the ai to no end. It imposes an unrealistic limitation that snorts at the concept of 1-tile-many-miles, and it even with extra movement per-turn(2 for melee instead of 1) it does more to bruden an already taxed system...

But as my friend above has stated, this is not new. I am in favor of increasing penalties for 'stationing' multiple units on one tile, but not eliminating the possibility of a SOD althogether. While this system adds a little new flavor to the series, I personally feel this harkens to warhammer 4000 or some such tabletop...
No, the original DooM. The whole idea of using a First-Person camera came from Wing Commander.

Anyways, I have stated this hundreds of times, I prefer 1UPT over SODs, but what I would really love would be limited SODs, forming limited stacks called armies.

But in any case, this issue has been discussed to death and the OP brings absolutely nothing new to the table.
 
I have loved 1UPT since the implementation. I hated stack of doom scenarios. However, recently, playing G&K, I have been quite frustrated with the way 1UPT is implemented. I can't get my units situated. Bottle necks abound. The biggest problem right now is that there are city states between me and some of my cities, and they just have piles of units within their borders, so I can't even move my people from one city to the other. Some how there needs to be a way to land on the same space as another friendly unit without curfuddling the movement of troops. Sharing a space without having a stack of doom... just to help move units from one place to the other.

Trying to get battering rams to the front of the line is also frustrating. I don't know what the fix is, but man, launching a major offensive with lots of units is very hard. Getting reinforcements to the front of the queue... ick.
 
Since when hasnt civ been pretty much a wargame? I mean sure, it charades around like it has all these other features and junk, but for the most part its just a turn based RTS.
 
While combat IS important and easily the first way most learn to win(plis, super-fun), combat is not the only way to win. That statement is akin to saying irl political success id degined only global conquest.

Fun scenario to imagine, however! Imperialism and xenophobia abound. I side w/the draconians! Screw the liberal concept of free will or equal rights...
 
No, the original DooM. The whole idea of using a First-Person camera came from Wing Commander.

Anyways, I have stated this hundreds of times, I prefer 1UPT over SODs, but what I would really love would be limited SODs, forming limited stacks called armies.

But...but...Tactics does that! And Axis and Allies! So it would just make it a wargame!

Of course, by the same logic Tigris and Euphrates - which has an effective 1UPT system - is a wargame...
 
Well, if ciV is a war-game its a pretty crappy one. I suppose tactics ogre is a wargame? Maybe tower-defense is too? Units must be bought and killed in both.

The ai sucks, the naval side is a mess, strategy is limited and (if war is all that matters) its techs are ass-backward...

How you play is your choice, but do not push your misguided concepts upon me. Maybe the critics and rating associations got the game's genre wrong? Maybe all the fans are wrong? Fix trading? Nope, why? CiV is a wargame... Alliances? No, this is a wargame. While the genres of gaming are increasingly blended, this is outrageous.
 
OP, you are jumping to conclusions.

Go smoke a doobie and chill out.

I wish I had a doobie when I see threads like this. But I kicked the bongs away and just have my last beer for the night on this thread! :)
 
I really wish Civ 5 had a more Total War type of combat; SoD for main map movement and then combat on a separate map. It would help the AI immensely in terms of combat. Imagine a pseudo-chess like combat :cool:
 
Well, if ciV is a war-game its a pretty crappy one. I suppose tactics ogre is a wargame? Maybe tower-defense is too? Units must be bought and killed in both.

The ai sucks, the naval side is a mess, strategy is limited and (if war is all that matters) its techs are ass-backward...

How you play is your choice, but do not push your misguided concepts upon me. Maybe the critics and rating associations got the game's genre wrong? Maybe all the fans are wrong? Fix trading? Nope, why? CiV is a wargame... Alliances? No, this is a wargame. While the genres of gaming are increasingly blended, this is outrageous.

It's nothing to do with genres 'blending', it's a fundamental misunderstanding by the OP about how game mechanics work. Some games have unlimited stacking, regardless of genre - games like previous Civ computer games or the wargame Risk - others have limited stacking (Tactics, Civ the original boardgame, Total War campaign mode [sure, a 20-unit limit is a big stack, but it's still a limit] etc.), and others 1UPT (chess, Civ V, Tigris & Euphrates, Settlers of Catan...). Mechanics are tools used by different genres - Civ-like tech trees were pioneered by the Civ series, but now turn up in everything from RTSes to RPGs. The same with the Civilopedia, which has given rise to in-game encyclopedias that are almost universal. Civ V adopts a social policy selection system derived ultimately from the tech system introduced in the first Diablo game, but that does not entail that Civ V is a hack-and-slash. Civ IV had talking units when you clicked them, an RTS staple first introduced in Warcraft (I believe). Was Civ IV an RTS? Any game is a product of the way multiple mechanics are incorporated into the whole, and the purpose they serve.

I really wish Civ 5 had a more Total War type of combat; SoD for main map movement and then combat on a separate map. It would help the AI immensely in terms of combat. Imagine a pseudo-chess like combat

Though as I detailed elsewhere the AI in Total War, while better than Civ V's, does some pretty dumb things, and tends to favour overly-predictable tactics in the combat view that are readily-exploitable.

As a complete aside, since there's been a discussion about the origin of certain game types, to describe the dual-map system as "Total War style" surely does the X-COM series an injustice. UFO: Enemy Unknown used a base-management and movement campaign map with a separate tactics-based battle map back in 1994 (although the global map was real-time while the battle map was turn-based until X-COM: Apocalypse), while Shogun: Total War was only released in 2000.

No, the original DooM. The whole idea of using a First-Person camera came from Wing Commander.

Are you sure about that? Wing Commander was released for Atari, but many pre-Atari era RPGs had first-person views, even back to the days when they were mainly text-based. The graphics capability didn't exist to make video first-person views, but look at (say) The Bard's Tale from the late '80s, in which the main view was a first-person perspective that shifted from one still to the next as you moved. The computer version of Space Hulk, released a couple of months before Doom, used a first-person camera view in a shoot-em-up, and it wasn't hailed as anything especially innovative then.

Since when hasnt civ been pretty much a wargame? I mean sure, it charades around like it has all these other features and junk, but for the most part its just a turn based RTS.

Read this back to yourself slowly, paying particular attention to the meaning of the phrase Real Time Strategy. A turn-based Real Time Strategy game is ... a strategy game? RTS games vary; traditional RTSes, like the Warcraft or Age of Empires series, are not wargames in any meaningful sense - more than anything they're economy sims, where the goal is to build a bigger economy and smash your opponent's. You turn bits of your economy into things called units that go out and do damage by costing the enemy equivalent or (ideally) greater amounts of resources, but the fact that they have graphics that make them look like marines with guns or orcs doesn't entail that you're playing a wargame, any more than the fact that chess has static, peaceful-looking pieces without weapons implies that chess isn't a wargame. You don't meaningfully employ tactics in a classic or classic-style RTS - flanking has no more effect than attacking frontally, for example, and few RTS games offer meaningful formation options such as forming your units into ranks.

With the exception of the phenomenal wargame RTS Cossacks, which is rather unique in the RTS pantheon, it's only in more modern, wargame-inspired RTSes like Company of Heroes that such things as terrain, line of sight, cover and morale exist; in these latter games you fight for territorial control of key sites, but this is not the case in a game like Starcraft where the objective is just to damage and ultimately destroy the other guy's bases. There are even RTSes that have technological or other victory conditions that don't rely on wiping out the opposition, such as the Age of Empires system where scenarios can be won by advancing to the next era or by controlling all the wonders scattered around the landscape (the latter a precursor of the Company of Heroes/Dawn of War style territory control system).

In short, yes Civ has many gameplay elements in common with an RTS - it's based on a system of 'bases' that produce resources which are poured into units and technology, it rewards players who expand early and often, and a common route to victory is to wipe out the opposition's bases (although only a few RTSes actually allow you to commandeer your rivals' bases once conquered) - but it does not follow that it's a wargame because RTSes are varied and, in their traditional form (which was derived from games like the existing Civilization, rather than vice versa) are not wargames but are wholly strategy (i.e. management) focused.
 
Stacking units into a giant ball of death is NOT strategic. At all.

1UPT is strategic. It forces you to think about your movement in advance, plan your assaults, etc.

For non-militaristic civs, it can be a large advantage in setting up your defence.

The other huge change in Civ V that makes it more strategic is the fact that ranged units are, you know, RANGED.

The combination of these two factors makes the combat and strategy side of Civ V feel almost like Advance Wars, which despite it's "cute" graphics is an incredibly rich strategic turn-based strategy game. Add in Civ's many layers of economy, technology, productivity, etc., and you have what I believe is the best all around strategy game of all time.

But I'm not biased ... Excuse my while I go waste yet another day building an empire :)
 
Stacking units into a giant ball of death is NOT strategic. At all.

1UPT is strategic. It forces you to think about your movement in advance, plan your assaults, etc.

Welcome to the forums - but no, you got things confused here:

A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a vision. Strategy is all about gaining (or being prepared to gain) a position of advantage over adversaries or best exploiting emerging possibilities.

Military tactics, the science and art of organizing a military force, are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle.


Quotes from wikipedia - I guess we don't have to argue common understanding of what tactics and strategy are. Which clearly puts 1UPT focus on tactics and (unorganized!!!) SOD on strategy. Which is no bad thing per se. If the AI is able to porperly deal with tactics this might be really great for all those people who want to play a game involving tactical warfare. Which maybe not everybody wants. Which might be the reason why V is getting so much flak. And which might be the reason why the OP is getting the impression the focus of V shiftet from empire building strategy to wargame tactics. And to be honest I can't really blame him because he has a point there - no matter if you agree with his dislike of it.
 
Welcome to the forums - but no, you got things confused here:

A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a vision. Strategy is all about gaining (or being prepared to gain) a position of advantage over adversaries or best exploiting emerging possibilities.

Military tactics, the science and art of organizing a military force, are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle.


Quotes from wikipedia - I guess we don't have to argue common understanding of what tactics and strategy are. Which clearly puts 1UPT focus on tactics and (unorganized!!!) SOD on strategy. Which is no bad thing per se. If the AI is able to porperly deal with tactics this might be really great for all those people who want to play a game involving tactical warfare. Which maybe not everybody wants. Which might be the reason why V is getting so much flak. And which might be the reason why the OP is getting the impression the focus of V shiftet from empire building strategy to wargame tactics. And to be honest I can't really blame him because he has a point there - no matter if you agree with his dislike of it.

I could argue that 1UPT is in NO WAY any more or less tactical than SoDs, in fact I already have on several occasions. Following your definitions SoDs are most certainly very tactical. I could argue that even if warfare is tactical, that doesn't mean the entire game is focused around that, and consequently, it doesn't mean the empire building aspect has been thrown out of the window. In fact in the present state of the game there is absolutely NOTHING to support such a claim and if there is, please state so.

And you know what? A lot of people complained about how, you see, (when following your logic) CiV is TOO STRATEGIC, because you have to have a clear victory condition in mind relatively early on. Ooops, so the game is too tactical and too strategic for the hardcore at the same time? :hammer2: And that further proves how bogus this entire argument of yours is.

CiV is not a war-game. CiV was never intended to be a war-game. Anyone who states otherwise is clearly just trying to find a reason to hate it, as far as I am concerned. It changed a lot of the established cornerstones of the series, so it's understandable that a lot of people are pissed off, but calling CiV a wargame I find endearingly silly, if that makes any sense.
 
CiV is not a war-game. CiV was never intended to be a war-game. Anyone who states otherwise is clearly just trying to find a reason to hate the game, as far as I am concerned.

And that might be the big misconception. People are not looking actively for a reason to hate the next entry in their favourite game franchise. They just play it and feel something is wrong. And then they ask: "Why is that so..?" And you can argue that as long as you want: Civ V adds a kind of tactical focus on warfare that never has been there in the past (and which also has been badly implemented as the AI clearly has more issues with 1UPT than they had with SOD). Before the focus was mostly on punching out troops, building the bigger stack - and then you won the war. Clearly strategic focus. This is enough warfare for some people, adding 1UPT might be too much, because - to stick with your words - the Civ series is not a war-game series. Civ was never intended to be a war-game series. And nevertheless Jon Shafer made the wise decision to push V quite a lot in the direction of stuff like Battle Isle or Panzer General. That was a hazardous move, and time will tell whether it was the right one...
 
I really wish Civ 5 had a more Total War type of combat; SoD for main map movement and then combat on a separate map. It would help the AI immensely in terms of combat. Imagine a pseudo-chess like combat :cool:

Agreed. Civ5 misses the mark, in my view, not because of its emphasis on tactics, but because tactical maneuvers have to take place on a strategic level map. I just don't see how the carpet of doom is any improvement over the stack thereof :)

Tactical combat could be much richer if it happened on a different geographic and time scale from the strategic level turns. You could model terrain at finer granularity, introduce weather effects, night actions, have real line-of-sight, etc.

If the AI is able to porperly deal with tactics this might be really great for all those people who want to play a game involving tactical warfare. Which maybe not everybody wants. Which might be the reason why V is getting so much flak. And which might be the reason why the OP is getting the impression the focus of V shiftet from empire building strategy to wargame tactics. And to be honest I can't really blame him because he has a point there - no matter if you agree with his dislike of it.

And this brings me to the other issue. A first-class tactical game needs to have a much stronger tactical AI than is in evidence in Civ5. If they're not going to invest in developing it, they should go back to the simpler system of Civ4 (though I'd love to see the hexes stay).

What I'd really like to see though is the tactical combat module designed in such a way that you could either resolve battles quickly, stack-to-stack, or bring up a full scale tactical level map and fight it out in detail. I'd probably use the former most of the time and only bring up the latter for large-scale engagements.
 
And that might be the big misconception. People are not looking actively for a reason to hate the next entry in their favourite game franchise. They just play it and feel something is wrong. And then they ask: "Why is that so..?" And you can argue that as long as you want: Civ V adds a kind of tactical focus on warfare that never has been there in the past (and which also has been badly implemented as the AI clearly has more issues with 1UPT than they had with SOD). Before the focus was mostly on punching out troops, building the bigger stack - and then you won the war. Clearly strategic focus. This is enough warfare for some people, adding 1UPT might be too much, because - to stick with your words - the Civ series is not a war-game series. Civ was never intended to be a war-game series. And nevertheless Jon Shafer made the wise decision to push V quite a lot in the direction of stuff like Battle Isle or Panzer General. That was a hazardous move, and time will tell whether it was the right one...
gps, I thought you were a long-timer who knew how important stack composition and terrain modifiers were in previous games. I have seen severely out-teched and outnumbered civs completely wipe out gigantic invading forces simply because they used the right units at the right moment. And what do you call that? Tactics I think.

In CiV on the other hand the combat system is hardly complex enough to overpower the gameplay, it's quite simple in fact. Simple enough that two players who are semi-competent at playing the game can use it almost to its fullest potential and duke it out without having a clear winning side. That is until the advantage of having the better economy kicks in. Exactly like in CIV.

1UPT changed several things indeed. It scaled battles down, almost nullified luck out of the equation, put big emphasis on upgrading units you already own and slowed down the production of new combat units as a result. It was a very hard balancing act, and one that Firaxis completely failed at back when the game launched. It also challenged the AI in a way that just exposed how dumb it can be unfortunately, which I think should be cited as the biggest disadvantage of 1UPT. Wargame though? Tactics taking over running a smooth-ticking empire? :think: Eeeh...

EDIT: Oh, and let's delve deeper into the OP's stellar logic. One of the main inspirations of Civ 1 was SimCity. SimCity was inspired by Raid on Bungeling Bay, an arcade top-down shoot'em-up. So basically Civ is supposed to be pretty close to something like this. Do you realize how idiotic that is?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom