1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Abolishing Electoral College?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Zardnaar, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    10,777
    Location:
    The Tiberium Future
    Argentina and Brazil aren't exactly the best examples of functioning republics though. And when you factor in the fact that the US has been significantly more stable and successful as a nation, I'd say that scores a point for "don't change anything" school of thought.

    The whole idea of the US was that we are supposed to be a nation that is different from the rest of the world. That's why when someone tries to make an argument like "Country X does this, why can't we?" that person is usually shouted down. Americans don't want to be like the rest of the world, and those that do can be described as being fundamentally unAmerican.

    The Senate covers the inequities on the legislative side of things, but not on the executive side of things. The idea was that the president is to be chosen by a consensus of the states, not a consensus of the people. Of course that was messed up by the bigger population states demanding a compromise which led to the current system we have. I would reform the Electoral College to have each state have 3 electoral votes regardless of population. Two would go to the winner of the popular vote in that state and one vote goes to the runner up.
     
  2. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    6,049
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    There's pros and cons of being unable to change easily.

    It slows change but it also prevents a party seizing power easily.

    Or bill of rights for example is more progressive than the American constitution but it can be revoked by any future government with a parlimentary majority.

    I know you need 75% of states to amend the Constitution. Not sure how you would dump the EC I suppose it's theoretically possible.
     
  3. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    33,042
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    In that system, you'd need to win 76 votes, which in a two-horse race is still 26 states. Why bother with the runner-up points?
     
  4. Arwon

    Arwon

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    17,517
    Location:
    Canberra
    I'm not saying you should be, just that you are like other countries. You're not the only country with a federation, a constitution, or a history of immigration.

    So you can't point to those things as explanation for why something is unique or unusual about the US.

    (Noting that as I said upthread, a constitution that's difficult to amend is not actually unique or perhaps even unusual among federations)
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    hobbsyoyo likes this.
  5. uppi

    uppi Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,475
    "The USA sucks and that's the way we like it" should be the slogan.
     
  6. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,469
    Location:
    England
    I believe that the USA would be better off in reforming or abolishing
    their electoral college, but I doubt that it will happen in my life time.

    My rational is that there is very little incentive for voters in non swing seats to vote.

    I am not convinced that the EC in itself gave Donald Trump the presidency of the USA.
    His team understand the importance of the swing states and concentrated there, while Hilary
    Clinton's team dispersed their campaign effort to pointlessly win the popular vote. If the EC had
    not existed, Donald Trump would have targeted the most populous states, and likely still have won.
     
  7. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    17,069
    There's being good at sucking and there's being bad at sucking.
     
  8. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    10,777
    Location:
    The Tiberium Future
    It would be something of a compromise to placate those that don't like the winner-take-all system.

    Another idea I floated in another thread was give each state 100 electoral votes and assign them to candidates based on the percentage of the popular vote they get in that state.
     
  9. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    As I said, there were liberals in the 19th Century.

    Also, I've been known to quote Nirvana occasionally in rhetoric, and I was already an adult when Cobain's tragic suicide hit the news.

    Except for the fact that it was come under the control of powerful corporate plutocrats and highly-moneyed lobby and special interest groups who hold far more influence and power over most elected officials than those officials' own constituents have, especially since bribery, at that level, was effectively legally when the U.S. Supreme Court violated their own principles and betrayed their own nation and people by ruling as they did in the "Corrupt Plutocrats United and Screw the Citizens" case. Also, the United States Government and numerous of it's members routinely commit high crimes against their own people, violating their own Constitution and mandate, and committing war crimes and crimes against humanity abroad, and then seditiously hiding the evidence under the label of "classified for national security purposes," and declaring an American who bravely and patriotically, at risk to themselves, reveals these high betrayals of trust in American public servants to their compatriots are, somehow, the actual crimes (Snowden, for example), and said government officials have a completely separate mechanism of due process and justice, the "nobles of the realm shall only tried by their peers in the House of Lords and be completely beyond and above the competence of the common quarters-sessions," - err, excuse, the bad, gallows joke that is the impeachment process, but my example shows clearly where the Founding Fathers got their influence there. And, on top of that, the whole electoral system is so thoroughly rigged, top to bottom, that, even if a wave of discontent happened, both parties would never be taken out of power in the SAME election. So, be proud of supporting the United Russia, the ZANU-PF, the Nur-Otan, the NRM, etc. of the United States - just that, like the Turno Pacifico, there's deceptively two of them.
     
  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    35,737
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    you can do that now by adding decim
     
  11. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    6,049
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    It's still not great as it gives high population states the same number of votes as Dakota.

    The EC won't go anywhere until both parties want it to. Liberals hate it atm but I suspect they will like it more after 2020 or 2024.
     
  12. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Perhaps the two main parties themselves need to go. They've worn out their welcome, become very entrenched, rigged and corrupted the whole electoral system, and have become quite to accustomed to committing high crimes, abuses of power, betrayals of trust and office, and gross breach of mandate practically day in and day out, and then seditiously covering up the evidence under the label "classified for national security purposes." Perhaps a "Clean Hands" event, like Italy had in the '90's, is really what's in order.
     
  13. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,980
    Location:
    Gingerbread Cottage
    Because Italian politics is so much better today. The state of parties is only a symptom, not the cause.
     
  14. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Well, renewal can be therapeutic, if not the solution. At least get rid the actual two political parties full of criminals of the worst sorts and abusers and betrayers, day in and day out, and their mandates of authority and the trust citizens put them, so they can be made to answer for their crimes without being in power, or having allies in power, protect them utterly from justice, and have their crimes, abuses, and betrayals, re-evaluated at least. Although I'm certain new offenses would occur - by human nature - at least a house-cleaning could occur.
     
  15. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    6,049
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    New parties would still break down along left/right divides though.

    You would just get new faces. New faces that would likely act the same as the old ones fairly quickly.

    Politics for the most part are a reflection of the voters. How extreme or corrupt the polititians are is more of a cultural thing.

    US polititians are still better than most of the world, but America IMHO is more focused on the almighty dollar than say Canada, Aussie, NZ, Scandinavia.
     
  16. Patine

    Patine Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    I'm aware of that. But I was making a bit of a different point in that post, there.
     

Share This Page