[RD] Abortion is either murder or not. You can't have it both ways.

[caketastydelish]

I posted this comment in the thread about US supreme court decisions (and more specifically Roe v Wade being overturned) but my comment was deleted because I was replying to someone who was trolling. The moderator advised me to make a new thread on the matter, which is what this is for.

Before anything, let me make my position on the issue clear: I am pro-choice. 100% pro-choice. I am completely against Roe v Wade being overturned.

... But I am consistently taking that position. I've noticed Eve Ensler (as one example but many other feminists) is hypocritical about this. They say they agree with me that they are pro-choice. If you are pro-choice I would like to assume you agree that abortion is not murder because a fetus isn't a person. Otherwise, you are comfortable with murder.

She, as well as many other feminists, say they are pro-choice like me and then complain "in some parts of the world they kill baby girls" in reference to aborting a fetus that is female. If you think abortion is killing=murder, then you should be consistently against abortion like the people who are pro-life.

Abortion is either murder or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. Also, "I support their choice as long as I agree with it" isn't really pro-choice.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Yes, they're right to oppose sex selection of which fetus will come to term, but they're using deliberately emotive language that they don't really believe.

 

[caketastydelish]

Even that is the case, it is intellectually dishonest to utilize that as rhetoric that you don't believe so it's still wrong.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Even that is the case, it is intellectually dishonest to utilize that as rhetoric that you don't believe so it's still wrong.

Its wrong to use that language, its not wrong to oppose abortion on grounds of the sex of the fetus.

 

[caketastydelish]

Then they should change their language.

 

[The_J]

Yes, probably.

I guess the rhetorics you refer to in the OP aren't a widely held actual belief. And strange people are everywhere. It gets only a real problem as soon as it gets traction somewhere.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Then they should change their language.

They should. Good luck getting political campaigners of any ilk to stop using emotive and misleading language.

 

[Berzerker]

if it is murder what will the punishment be women?

 

[caketastydelish]

I guess we will find out with Roe V Wade being overturned.

 

[Bamspeedy]

If you say a fetus isn't a person, so it cant be murder, are you also against charging an actual killer with two murders when he/she kills a pregnant woman?

 

[caketastydelish]

That is also a good point.

 

[Berzerker]

legally speaking abortion aint murder, the constitution recognizes birth but not conception

 

[Birdjaguar]

We encourage, allow, demand, and accept the ending of human life in many varied situations and we call those actions differently as conditions change. The language we use colors our opinions as a way to influence others. Oh well.

 

[Angst]

i made a whole other thread on it, but i'll specifically answer to a nuance here, in that the said feminists are wrong in more than one way

even if a fetus were a person (which it isn't), i don't even believe abortion is murder there, and i don't think phrasing it as killing is correct either. ending a bodily dependancy that you aren't consenting to is not murder. letting something die is not murder

this is of course because i'm on the violinist kool-aid i guess (depending on your perspective), but that's the general outline for me; even if the fetus is a person, it's neither murder nor killing in my eyes, and the feminists op refer to are incorrect (and hypocritical) in more ways than one

like even the distinction between killing and murder is a thing; involuntary manslaughter is not murder, for example

we have a whole other thread for it of course, so i'll keep it there; feel free to quote reply there

 

[El_Machinae]

I think the OP raises a good point. They're not murdering baby girls. They're selectively birthing boys. Different, but similar concepts. Some of this is a meme-war, where perceived hypocrisy loses points.

Yes, they're right to oppose sex selection of which fetus will come to term

As long as they're only vilifying the societal pressure. I am quite hesitant to vilify a woman's choice with regards to what she chooses to carry. A woman doesn't owe 'society' a certain type of baby. A society owes a woman the ability to make the choices she wants.

 

[Hygro]

If you say a fetus isn't a person, so it cant be murder, are you also against charging an actual killer with two murders when he/she kills a pregnant woman?

The right to choose: you choose personhood for your fetus instead of abortion, the killer of you gets one count of murder, one count of pre-murder

 

[RobAnybody]

I agree with the OP but also in another sense, which I'll get to, but do want to make the same disclaimer first: I am 100% pro-choice & am frankly appalled at RvW being overturned.

I just think the people who want to ban abortion "except for rape & incest" should be consistent. Either a life is a life, a fetus is a life, abortion is murder, etc, or... it isn't. People that believe abortion is murder should believe the same for those conceived during rape. It makes no sense to me how they can be OK with the so-called "murder" of Baby A but not Baby B.

The "except for... " stance is just a shield they hide behind to pretend like they're being reasonable.

 

[Berzerker]

pro-lifers say abortion is murder but start making excuses why women wont be punished for murder

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I just think the people who want to ban abortion "except for rape & incest" should be consistent.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - these issues are incedibly complex and difficult. I don't think it's unreasonable to say you oppose abortion but understand why, in the circumstances you describe it is the lesser of two evils - in effect the person carrying out the act of rape or incest is the murderer in this scenario.

 

[caketastydelish]

I agree with the OP but also in another sense, which I'll get to, but do want to make the same disclaimer first: I am 100% pro-choice & am frankly appalled at RvW being overturned.

I just think the people who want to ban abortion "except for rape & incest" should be consistent. Either a life is a life, a fetus is a life, abortion is murder, etc, or... it isn't. People that believe abortion is murder should believe the same for those conceived during rape. It makes no sense to me how they can be OK with the so-called "murder" of Baby A but not Baby B.

The "except for... " stance is just a shield they hide behind to pretend like they're being reasonable.

I think you can make important exception for incest, or anything else to suggest the baby would be born with deformities. Mercy killings I can support depending on context. But I also consistently support abortion.