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[RD] Abortion, once again

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Angst, Jan 10, 2022.

  1. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Violinist argument. Personhood doesn't matter.

    Why is this in a thread about guns

    Moderator Action: Moved from the gun thread to keep the two conversations separate
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2022
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  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    What an impressively dishonest attempt at falsely equating two different things, lol.

    Wrongful shootings USUALLY don't happen because the gun malfunctions, but rather because the person holding it fired it on purpose. In the case of the former, the gun manufacturer would indeed have a causal connection/be liable. I don't think these California statues are specifically targeting misfires/weapon going off when it shouldn't due to poor quality of manufacture, though. In the latter case? False attribution of cause.

    What you're getting at in the analogy is more like a 3rd party spiking your drink and holding the restaurant liable. And no, a restaurant should not go out of business because a criminal spiked a patron's drink.

    It is also bad if, because if the risk of liability when one of their patrons commits a crime falsely attributed to them, restaurant prices go up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  3. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Hey, if you're fine with being forced to keep another person through your metabolism, that's good for you. I'm just not into that kind of kink. Personally I want jurisdiction over my body, in general.
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    Which part of "false" didn't you understand?
     
  5. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    What part of the essay didn't you understand?
     
  6. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Wanna know what is really kinky? f*****g while knowing that in a couple of days, there is a good chance that you would be kidnapped by music lovers because you caused thier favorite violinist to contract a fatal kidney disease.
     
  7. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Again, read. You don't need that part of the argument for the point, at all. It could be a thought experiment about a legal medical requirement from citizens enforced by the state. Use your brain.

    You're not required to sustain others through your metabolism. It's invasive.
     
  8. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Could be a thought experiment about thought. Use your brain
     
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  9. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    I don't think that's true? Unless you limit yourself to situation and extremely limited applications of metabolism. So maybe like not true at all.
     
  10. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    He's just parroting spoon fed narratives, like drinking kool aid...
     
  11. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    I wouldn't say he is. Though cross-cultural barbs may give that impression sometimes. I like the blue and red flavors the best, myself, when it comes to Kool-Aide. Don't remember what they're supposed to be. All you really need to know is to halve the additional sugar when mixing from the little paper packets. I prefer my sugary stuff to at least be a solution instead of a suspension.
     
  12. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    No regard to critical thinking....
     
  13. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    In some coutries, mine included, you are legally obligated to provide basic help for someone that's hurt or dying. Like, if you have ability to get water and a phone, give water and call an ambulance.

    You're not obligated to donate blood or provide help through your organs, regardless of how much of a person the sufferer is.

    Maybe bernie has issue with the latter and wants enforced blood donations and such. We don't usually need our two kidneys either, maybe that's fine for him too. But I presume that is not the case, that bernie does not want to be forcefully hospitalized and be a forced donor while alive. In the case of the latter, there could be a specific group where he thinks enforced donorship is completely ok to do, where stripping this bodily autonomy is a-ok. Women.

    And the fact that he engages with a quite well-known thought experiment with bad faith and immediately jumps at the absurdity of the construction doesn't make him smart. There's of course absurdity in the thought experiment, like why is someone forced against their will to provide life through bloodstream to a fully grown adult. There is little consideration here that a) the adult is giving anti-abortionists the benefit of the doubt and treating a clump of cells as a full person, b) the point of the person being a world-class violinist is to make the case as good as possible for the possible life, c) this kind of medical procedure while nonsensical in practice is literally less than what is required of a pregnant woman, d) it is unreasonable to force the donor to be in this state for seven days, let alone nine months, and e) there is a real equivalency between being kidnapped & enforced such a procedure and being enforced pregnant (ie rape - the only real difference is that the violinist example is milder).

    The point of the article is that even if you treat the fetus as a full person, if we presume a neo-Mozart is to emerge from the womb, even if pregnancy was less demanding than it actually is, even if it only lasted for seven days, even if it was much less violent than rape, it would still be a grotesque abuse of an individual's rights to bodily autonomy.

    bernie could pick up on the point of the article, that men in general cannot relate to this loss of bodily autonomy so getting it spelled out in this way may help you have something click in your brain. The situation is absurd, but if you can't at some level get a sense of what it feels like here, you lack empathy. You react with "this is crazy", but don't take a step beyond that to have a sense of how crazy it indeed is. Yes, it's insane to enforce donorship on people. It's insane to enforce pregnancy, a real world thing that is worse to the body than the absurd thought experiment. Especially when there are medical options.

    And the usual response is "eh, it's a woman, I believe she's just supposed to do that in spite of her individual rights, and I'm gonna let the government help me punish her if she doesn't abide by my wishes." But Angst, it's biology. So is literally any ailment, which medicine unnaturally intrudes against. Pregnancy is really demanding of a body, and can be mortal.

    This is why people say abortion is about bodily autonomy, whether the fetus is a person or not. And it's why abortion is legal in Denmark.

    But I guess being naturally against having other people force that kind of **** on me is kool-aid, so bernie should be out there championing forced donations for everyone. I guess Danes are insane. So goes for a number of other countries. Ready your guns and lawsuits people, let's disallow women medical care. Otherwise the world'll go crazy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
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  14. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    No, not insane , just irresponsibly making matters of individual responsibility into state matters
     
  15. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    @Angst Your link was a long read, but a pretty thorough look at the various arguments. It was certainly worth the read. Thanks.
     
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  16. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Good that we agree that individuals are allowed to perform and have abortions, and that the state has no right to intervene.

    Thanks. I always supported abortion but didn't really grok how invasive unwanted pregnancy can be. It was spelled out several times, but the article helped knowing how it actually felt when I first read it. As I'm male I can't ever really fully relate to it, but it's better to emphasize halfway than none st all.
     
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Isn't passing laws for or against abortion making it a state matter?
     
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  18. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Both of you have missed the point. First, a "quite well known thought experiment" does not make it a sound one, that's why i said you were just parroting the conclusion. The only case of pregnancy that this "thought experiment" refers to is specifically cases of rape, which make up about 1% of abortions. The sick violinist is the fetus....how did he arrive at this condition?? Think man think! It is not the absurdity of the construction, its that those who were directly and voluntarily at cause for the "condition" are responsible, simple as that.
     
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  19. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Which requires legal definition of personhood
     
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  20. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    Men can't relate, eh? To the betrayal of the flesh or to the violence of others? The loss of self-determination? Long term damage and suffering, possibly through malice, often through none? Pure random stupid chance showing you just how much your plans and dreams mean? Yeah. Those seem pretty unique concepts. They must all be different in ever single person as they each experience the trials of a lifetime.

    Why the hell would we even be concerned about if a life is going to turn out "a Mozart?" Or if it's blind? Or economically disadvantaged? Right. What we can get out of it. That.
     

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