About 100% research rate again

gavenkoa

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What is usual mid/late game research slider position for Immortal / Deity? Is it 100% or 80% or 20%?

Here is popular: "never build markets, only libraries because you are going to run research slider 100% all the time". Still Merchent specialist in food reach city "doubles" GP rate (to your 2 Scientists) and cummulatively gives 2*+3G=+6G (upkeep of 1 city). Not to count happiness.

There is a 17 years old post with the summary how you can offset deficit of your treasury: '100% research all the time, possible?' https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/100-research-all-the-time-possible.143996/post-3376982

Wealth, specialists, greate poeple, shrine, failgold etc contribute directly to treasury. With a small empire they could compensate upkeep cost so you will run 100% research slider. Is it optimal strategy? Should you prefer bigger empire instead?
 
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Fippy

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Late in a game the rounding bugs don't matter anymore, so check how many turns are possible for a tech and adjust.
No point in running 100 / 100 / 0 if 100 / 100 / 50 gives that tech 1 turn quicker.
Also no point in using 3x 80 instead.

Very low slider positions like 20% should only be used to finish a tech, i never use them for several turns.

When fighting wars, 0% science for many turns can make sense (if you have all needed military techs).
Unit costs will skyrocket (they are now outside borders), while cities usually suffer a bit from whipping etc.

Ofc if you have so much gold that you can keep teching something valuable..even better.
 

Nick723

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Without an army and post currency, it’s definitely possible to keep the slider near 100%. The main levers are selling resources, selling techs, and building wealth.

Normally a bigger empire is always better, but not possible without warring - so you choose your desired attack window.

Markets and grocers are bad buildings primarily because of their high hammer cost to benefit. Building a market means that:
a) the market should be better than building wealth, but also
b) the market should be better than building something else

Even if you think that the market passes criteria a) (which most people don’t most of the time, but might be true for a super long game or a really great capital), it often fails at b). Libraries, observatories, universities (if running above 70% science) all have better paybacks, courthouses often do, forges often do. Only once a city has built these better buildings would it ever consider getting a market. The reality I find is that this is rarely, if ever, the case.
 

Gumbolt

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If I reach cuirs I often switch off slider. As I know I will be using capture gold just to stay positive gold wise. That or trading techs away for gold. Above advise seems good.

With a hammer economy it's possible to run 100% science. Run many cities at wealth. Shrines can be okay but capture them. Specialists another matter. Often a workshop may offer more hammers/gold than a merchant.
Of course you need a reason to just be focusing on tech rather than crushing AI/obtaining culture or winning by diplomacy. always have a plan!

I tend to find small empires (4-7 cities) are a good way to lose. Unless you are rushing to a military goal such as cuirs. On a huge map the AI will keep on expanding to 10-20 cities. If they get powerful they could have 1-2 vassals. At which point sitting on 6-7 cities is not going to win the game. Especially if they have a 30-50 strong stack. Unless you are planning culture or some sort of AP/UN cheese with a focus on diplomacy. Not sure that will work for UN. Bigger empire allow you to run wealth and then run 100% science.

Take 17 year old articles for what they are. Remember there has been 2 expansions and the knowledge of how the game works has changed over 17 years. Always have a reason for wanting to run 100% science as chances are your cities maybe stagnating on wealth when you want forges/factories and other production buildings. That or you should be breaking out with HA/Phants.
 

gavenkoa

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I questioned validity of gold multipliers based on pre-Currency economy in my game... Then the situation was changed drastically from 0% => 60% research. That effect is not visible in early game.

What about Market / Grocery? They provide +2 Merchant specialists each. In a food rich city they are going to resolve into GP. They speedup GP generation rate 200% (accounting 2 GS). Provided you are out of Cast System.
 

Gumbolt

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Using specialists outside a golden age is a bad thing? Most people in golden ages use caste. What do you want the GM for? Early on GS are better for bulbing? GM's can be useful for trade missions. Generally you want big cities so GM can generate 1100-1700 gold. 900 gold vs 1500-1800 beakers early on?

Markets and Grocer are 150 hammers each. You would need to be running 100% wealth to make it worth it? If you read the thread about help on monarch this is discussed. Unless you have a shrine producing 30-40 gold a turn?

What exactly are you trying to do here?
 

BornInCantaloup

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Provided you are out of Cast System.
This is exactly the thing : you should try to play towards Caste System.

There are two things you mention from the Markets.
a) The extra specialist slots, allowing to run 4 specs from Library + Market.
The problem with this, compared with Caste, is the lack of control. Caste allows you to run either 4 scientists or 4 merchants. And the certainty allows you to plan accordingly (do you want to bulb or trade mission ?).
b) Percentages. 2 merchants yield 6 gold, the market's bonus bumps that to 7,5 gold and it is finally rounded down to 7.
So, effectively, the gold bonus from the market, if it is solely used to run merchants is +1Gpt.
Percentages can be good but you need to look at the base value. In a city doing 50 commerce per turn... if you have use for your gold slider... a market could make sense.

But, early game, the situations are very rare where we have such strong commerce cities. Early game, 150H is also a huge investment (Caste is free, remember).
If we're looking at percentages, the Bank is also a much better investment than the Market.
For these reasons, Market spam is often reserved to Space Races and heavy cottage economies. In those situations, you can make use both of the happy bonus and the multiplier.

If you compare with other buildings, the multiplier from the market and the grocer are among the most hammer intensive in the game, only surpassed by the university.
This is why people look for alternative ways to produce gold.

Investing hammers into science multipliers and having other sources for gold is a way to save on infrastructure.
If you have Library + Market, your overall multiplier for commerce (remember : base value is >>> than multiplier) is 25%. And you invested 240H for it.
Alternatively, you could spend 150H into Library + Monastery and 90H towards an alternative source of gold. Your science multiplier would be 35%.
If your capital has an Academy, it benefits from an extra +50% towards science and this is an extra incentive to use the gold slider as little as possible.
Early on, it is much easier to stack science multipliers (Banks and Espionage buildings come late, right ?), and this is why people try to use their commerce production and multiplication, as much as possible, towards science.
1) It's easier
2) It actually pulls you ahead ; conspicuously enough, gold production does nothing (except for keeping us afloat).


With a small empire they could compensate upkeep cost so you will run 100% research slider.
Yes, you could even out-tech a larger Empire... for a time. The problem is that you will eventually be out-teched and out-produced by Empires that control more land.
Remember : percentages have no meaning if we don't look at the base values. 100% of 100 is 100, 40% of 1000 is 400. (And if you run 40% of 1000, Banks can be great in your super science cities.)
I did that exact experiment here : https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/stumbling-back-at-deity.673881/page-10#post-16186517
The tech situation is great. However, the problem is that I have exactly 0 production and no way to invade a neighbour. So, I will soon reach a plateau with no way to win the game. Maximizing commerce means cottages but those are very poor tiles to build an army.
Without land and the means to produce units, the situation will keep becoming more grim and grim.
You can compare that play to that of Pangaea's and will notice how he ends up in a much (much) better situation.
 

Fippy

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Basically a city in question needs lots of food, so whipping an expensive building doesn't really hurt and regrowth goes quick.
I def. used markets in deity no tech trading games, especially in Iso.
No market in a strong Bur Cap would usually be a mistake then, +50% hammers makes it an easy whip.

Grocers are somewhat bottom of the barrel, they don't even help with keeping a city more happy long-term (i.e. during war).
 

gavenkoa

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Using specialists outside a golden age is a bad thing?
Golden age is short. Seems you get 2-3 GP with cost 200, 300, 400 points on first GA:

6 scientists × 3gppt × 2 (GA bonus) = 36
6 scientists × 3gppt × 3 (GA bonus + Pacifism) = 54

5th GP costs 500gpp / 54gppt = 9.26T: longer than GA.

With only National Epic and realistic 4 specialist outside of GA and Pacifism:

500gpp / (4×2×3gppt) = 20.8T
600gpp / (4×2×3gppt) = 25T
...

National Epic also serves as controlled failgold, not a waste. Getting 1000G from GM in 25T is like 40Gpt for 4 food and some other bonuses. 1F is like 3H which you can double with failgold, so 4F is 4×3×2=24gpt.

I think Market worth it in that GP-farm city.
 
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gavenkoa

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No market in a strong Bur Cap would usually be a mistake then, +50% hammers makes it an easy whip.
Good point about Bureaucracy capital. I neglected Monasteries, as their +10% resulted in only +2-+4Bpt. They repay in 30T (if not mistaken). Bureaucracy is the time to build them ))
 

Gumbolt

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Some argue NE is not even worth it. If you have marble maybe fail gold. Pends what your overall strategy is. I don't focus too much on GP outside golden ages. Each specialist you run means you are slowing down growth of a city. Especially true in a capital where some aim for size 13-18 by 1ad or so. With many sea food resources easily possible. Do you really need a GP farm outside of golden age? If you have built 1-2 wonders this also speeds up your GP creation. If you can grab music then you have artist for golden age. Some will even ague against academy here. Every game is different.

With golden age you could have 3-5 cities trying to get a GP. So you can then bulb, edu and lib. Maybe philosophy too but likely not worth it. If you have a huge empire some bulbs can be worth 2-3k+. Monst in capital can be worth it. Especially with a strong bureau capital. Avoid bulbing techs that get 40% discount.

I focus too much on warfare so less time to think about markets and non military builds.
 

sampsa

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I'm not a huge fan of NE or GP-farms in general, assuming a typical cuirassier play for example. Specialists outside of golden age / pacifism are very mediocre.
 

Nick723

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I'm not a huge fan of NE or GP-farms in general, assuming a typical cuirassier play for example. Specialists outside of golden age / pacifism are very mediocre.
Indeed this sort of thing only shines in longer games. It’s typically most efficient to get the first 4-5 great people from 3+ cities. It’s only if you’re going deeper that you need a really strong GPP city that is running outside of a golden age.

@gavenkoa I do on rare occasions build markets for this purpose, but consider also that a theatre also has two specialist slots and is significantly cheaper. Bare in mind also that once you hit state property you want to be in caste all the time anyway
 

gavenkoa

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It’s typically most efficient to get the first 4-5 great people from 3+ cities.
As I understand this happens during first two Golden Ages and the first supports the second via obtained 2 GPs.

And the duration of the second GA might not be enough for full production of 4th/5th GP so you spend several tens of turns to get that last GP outside of GA/Pasifism...
that a theatre also has two specialist slots and is significantly cheaper
Three times cheaper... Market might give better Happiness bonuses. I don't know if this matters... Great Artists are quite useless, only to fuel Golden Age... So you don't want to get 3rd or 4th GA... while GM is cool!
Bare in mind also that once you hit state property you want to be in caste all the time anyway
Looks like post-Communism game is late and you already had 2 Golden Ages + 4-5 GP. Looks like Great Scientists are not that valuable that late. What is the use of Great persons in late game? Corporations or for gold from GM?
 

Gumbolt

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I tend to use one golden age and use the created GS/GM to burn gold or bulb key techs towards cuirs. Why have a golden age to generate GP and then use them on a second golden age? You would be better off building TM for second golden age. Many would argue TM is not a great wonder. Normally on immortal you should be able to grab it. If I go Cuirs I generally don't need a second golden age as I will be wiping out the AI whipping cuirs. Sometimes I might use it to help the economy as I am often losing 100-200 gold a turn whipping cuirs.

Danger of building NE is chance of great artist.They can still be useful for culture bombs on new cities. Speeds up the game end and brings a big city out of revolt in 1 turn.

Oh you can bulb all the way to mass media with GS if you wanted to. Think fission is the main tech that stops this. So always use for GS up to a certain point. I suspect those playing deity will likely play into later stages of game. The tech pace on deity is much quicker than Immortal and below. Communism and hammer economy seem to be the go to if cuirs/cavalry can't win the game.
 

sampsa

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As I understand this happens during first two Golden Ages and the first supports the second via obtained 2 GPs.
No, typically during 1st golden age. Grow your cities more and stop building those silly mines and you'll get much more out of your golden age.
Three times cheaper... Market might give better Happiness bonuses. I don't know if this matters... Great Artists are quite useless, only to fuel Golden Age...
I think specialists slots (beyond library) are worth very close to nothing in most games. There is no need to run specs outside caste. Grow.
Looks like post-Communism game is late and you already had 2 Golden Ages + 4-5 GP. Looks like Great Scientists are not that valuable that late. What is the use of Great persons in late game? Corporations or for gold from GM?
Mostly I'd time 2nd golden age with communism. GS are still decent but GM are better. Rest is golden age fodder. Well GE gains some strength I guess, especially for Taj (hard to find enough forest usually at that point).
 

Nick723

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Why have a golden age to generate GP and then use them on a second golden age?
Of course it’s unlikely to use them in this way early on, but I think you underestimate the value of a golden ages, especially later in the game. Let’s say you’re working 100 tiles and of these half benefit from both :hammers: and :commerce: and half just one. That’s effectively 150:commerce: / turn pre multipliers. If you have 25% multipliers that gives 187.5 per turn which is 1500:science: over a golden age. A bulb is say 1500:science:, but this has to be effectively discounted 20% as you’re normally bulbing something with at least one pre-requisite.

Of course a second golden age requires two great people, but it’s easily possible to have a few hundred tiles being worked and average multipliers of 50% or more (post assembly line). A single golden age can easily net 5000:science:. I’d say it’s quite common for the second golden age to generate 3 great people for the third one.
I think specialists slots (beyond library) are worth very close to nothing in most games. There is no need to run specs outside caste. Grow.
I agree 95% of the time, I was just pointing out that if you do need a couple of extra slots to get a GP out for a golden age, the theatre is a better way of doing this.
 

Gumbolt

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Golden age with a large empire on a hammer economy is a no brainer. On huge maps I can have 30-40+ cities before I even reach communism. 100% not under estimating it. Just by time communism comes my games are somewhat over. Ensuring you have the MM wonder can give you a 12 turn golden age. If you can mix this with TM you actually get 25 turns if they overlap.

I have played games where I have rolled out 2-3 golden ages in a row. On a big map you do get more from pop. A GS bulb is 1500 + 3xpop I have had some bulbs closer to 3k late game due to so many big cities. If you use corps such as sushi then these bulbs could be much higher. Size 25 cities possible? On a normal sized map its unlikely to get 30-40 cities that quickly. Some games I am so focused on just attacking Ai I can get to 1200ad or so with no golden age. Usually larger economy pays back itself.

Late games GM trade routes can easily be worth 1900 gold. Pends what you lack come late game. Two big capitals at 16 or so pop can give big rewards.
 
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