But the speeding ticket has been paid for!
About christ paying for our sins to save us from hell.
- Thread starter Eukaryote
- Start date
But the speeding ticket has been paid for!
classical_hero
In whom I trust
If the debtor is in serious trouble and has absolutely no way of paying the debt and yet he still foolishly thinks he can pay the debt. The debt that we owe God is way more than what we can every repay him via good deeds and the like. But if you to say that some was willing to pay the debt and you refuse, you would look silly. This is the same case with our sins. We are so hopeless in debt to God that we are actually his enemies, so for us to be acceptable by God we need to come to him on his terms.
Wait, what's the difference between refusing to pay a debt and ignoring it altogether?
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Only if you allow it to be paid for you. You cannot have a debt paid in your stead without your agreement. For two enemies to be friends it requires that both parties come to agreement. If one party is utterly defeated then he must abide but the rules set up by the victor. We are utterly defeated if we ever try to reconcile ourselves to God, because he said that there is only one to be reconciled to him, and that is by trust in Jesus.
The difference is knowing whether or not you actually owed a debt.
Which doesn't really matter if the debt has been paid for, no?
Perfection
The Great Head.
Ignoring presumes they know, which they don't.
Perfection
The Great Head.
The debtor doesn't think he can pay for it; he doesn't think he has a debt!
Well they didn't explicitly refuse the debt! I never once refused Jesus to pay my debts to God, I just don't believe I have a debt for Jesus to pay!
Till
Adventurer
It makes all the difference to the divine bureaucracy! If you could just cut through the red tape, it, along with Jesus' death, would look pretty redundant.
Wasn't it the same people that murdered Jesus Christ a.k.a Yoshua ben-Yosef a.k.a. Joshua son of Joseph that founded Christianity.. yet you believe what they tell you..
Wasn't it Constantine that formed the Nicean Creed to come together and decided and created that same mans divinity a.k.a. that he rose again on the third day..
Wasn't it Constantine that formed the Nicean Creed to come together and decided and created that same mans divinity a.k.a. that he rose again on the third day..
Perfection
The Great Head.
What does that have to do with the thread, Defiance (other then demonstrating an idiotic understanding of Christianity)?
Gaius Octavius
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
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The assumption there is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, everywhere. In Reformed Calvinistic theology, this is not taken to be true--hence the doctrine of the "limited atonement," or "particular redemption."
I quote here from R.C. Sproul's Chosen By God:
"The doctrine of limited atonement is so complex that to treat it adequately demands a full volume... The issue of limited atonement concerns the question, "For whom did Christ die? Die he die for everbody or only the elect [i.e. all who will be saved]?"... The question is, "For whom was the atonement designed?"" Sproul concludes that "the mission of Christ was to save the elect."
The wikipedia entry is also reasonable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_atonement
The problem is, as you correctly pointed out, that if Jesus had died for everybody, and paid for everybody's sins, then Hell would seem sort of moot, wouldn't it? Why would you need to go to Hell if your sins are paid for? The answer is--and most Christians don't like to hear this--that Jesus Christ did not die for everyone--He died only for those who would be saved in the divine plan of predestination. That is not to say that Christ's sacrifice was somehow finite or insufficient--no, in fact you could say that if Christ had died for every single person, then his death obviously was insufficient, because not everybody is saved. Christ would have died in vain for someone who rejected him outright.
Some Christians try to get around this by saying, Well, Christ did die for everybody, but it's not effective unless you accept it. I can't agree with that. Justice is about your condition before the law. Christ's atoning death fundamentally reverses your standing before the law of God. People will object by saying that "Christ died for the world." Calvinists interpret this as true--Christ did indeed die for people of "every tribe and nation"--but the atonement was designed, and therefore effective, for only for the elect.
So in answer to your question, I would say the problem with your statement is not the conclusion, but the premise.
Problem with free will is that an omnipotent god knows the result... so there was only going to be one outcome and thus by definition, there was no freedom of choice to make a right or wrong decision...
I don't like the average religious fanatic's banter regarding free will... free will is the ultimate excuse for why bad things happen and is to the humanist the highest good, while more often than not is to the monotheist an evil that must be suborned... I find that odd...
I don't like the average religious fanatic's banter regarding free will... free will is the ultimate excuse for why bad things happen and is to the humanist the highest good, while more often than not is to the monotheist an evil that must be suborned... I find that odd...
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
i agree with you, i dont think Jesus died for our sins
This is where the Elect of predestination comes in, but that's a topic for another thread.
But you were warned. You were told you had a debt, and you didn't believe.
Perfection
The Great Head.
That doesn't mean I refused the payment!
Why should I believe Safeway when they phone to tell me that American Express has forgiven my American Express bill? Especially if there's no evidence that I had an American Express account?
PrincepsAmerica
Nothingness made flesh
It's all metaphors to explain the unexplainable. Don't get so damn caught up in someone else's explanation. There are plenty of other explanations of the atonement, look around.
Whose fault is it that it's unexplainable?
Indeed it makes little sense from a purely logical POV.
Why did he have to die and suffer? If he is God almighty he could have just said: "From now on anyone who believes in me shall have his sins forgiven". Period.
Of course, this would not be nearly as good an exemple as the sinless man who died to save us. Jesus' death was the most powerful factor in disseminating Christianity.
Why did he have to die and suffer? If he is God almighty he could have just said: "From now on anyone who believes in me shall have his sins forgiven". Period.
Of course, this would not be nearly as good an exemple as the sinless man who died to save us. Jesus' death was the most powerful factor in disseminating Christianity.
I don't understand where this debt nonsense comes from. Who the heck thinks it is great to portray god as a loan officer and/or debt collector? Those jobs aren't paragons of virtue by any means. I mean, god's supposed to be this giant father-figure, right? So additionally, what kind of jerk father beats his kids (or lets them be beat) just because they don't pay him back some money?
Admittedly, I'm an atheist, so this is all just hypothetical to me, still the point stands.
Admittedly, I'm an atheist, so this is all just hypothetical to me, still the point stands.
