About christ paying for our sins to save us from hell.

[JZ_UK]

The debt comes from god putting an apple he knew would get eaten in a tree and leaving it around for these hairless biped apes to eat... in law we call that contributory negligence

...shows the compassion of the god christians worship I think... you're all damned for the mistakes of the first humans... maybe thats why this relative redemption thing is supposed to be so important...

 

[El_Machinae]

Makes sense to me.

Heck, my son owes me for the diapers that he used as a baby. And, by golly, he's gonna BEG for me to forgive that debt!

 

[Moonsinger]

I wouldn't generalize the church in this way. Many of the "heathen" books survived the Middle Ages, and many of those that were destroyed deserved to be (forgeries of apostolic writings, etc.)

That's exactly my point. Who give those religious leaders the right to decide what deserved to be destroyed? IIRC, those same people also claimed that the earth was flat too and condemned anyone who said otherwise. If they were wrong about the earth being flat, how do we know that they weren't wrong about other things?

 

[Phlegmak]

But you were warned. You were told you had a debt, and you didn't believe.

But if the debt's paid, it's paid. Never have I heard of a debt that isn't truly paid if the debtor doesn't believe he has a debt. So if that doesn't work in the case of Jesus, then this notion of a debt is totally the wrong analogy for Jesus's death.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Wasn't it Constantine that formed the Nicean Creed to come together and decided and created that same mans divinity a.k.a. that he rose again on the third day..

Yep and that was the "compromise" reached during that time. Though ultimately never really "finalised" as differances between the Coptic and orthadox christain teachings. It comes down to the fact that Jesus being same as god was not poltically acceptable that he should in fact be killed by mortals. This was unthinkable at the time.

The final outcome was that Jesus soul the holy spirit left hes body at the time of crucifixtion, jesus the man died and after the holy spirit returned jesus to life. It was a rather intelligent redaction and compromise at the time to satisfy both major christain groups at the time of the first ecchulmenical (need a built in spell checker) council

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Father Ted to the rescue

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=11&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

If Jesus paid for our sins, then no one should ever need to go to Hell, correct? If that was true, then the book of Revelation seems to have some major flaws.

Exactly. I'm fully convinced John of Patmos had gone mad when he wrote Revelations.

 

[EdCase]

Umm..until the man/woman/entity him/her/its self shows me a contract with my signature on it...

I'd have to say . "What is this sin thing ? and does it come with bonus airmiles? "

 

[The Lombard]

The whole 'died for our sins' is nonsensical to me. Jesus IS God. If God wanted to forgive us, he could have just done it. Putting an aspect himself through agony in a bizarre symbolic gesture was unnecessary. Pure EMO showboating, some might allege. It gets even sillier when you realize that God is omniscient and had always known the whole affair was going to happen since the swirly non-beginning of eternity.

Alright, that's being a bit irreverant for it's own sake, but the basic drift is right.

What it means is that God is not rationally comprehensible, not by human conceptions of logic. This doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but faith in him is necessarily blind, since there's no way one can get a handle on him.

Natch, the Old Testament, and much of the New, anthropomorphize God and that's how most people seem to see him - a kindly old GrandFather figure. The 'Holy Ghost' is a half-assed way to cram in the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent attributes (as well as immanent and transcendent ones, if they're ya poison). It's this warped (in the neutral sense) 'humanized' view of God that makes people swallow a lot of God's actions, such as the Cruxifiction, as morally and rationally coherent things - but when considered in depth, they're really not. Pharoah and the plagues is another good example - and the best one of all is Adam, Eve and the negligent leaving-around of snakes and forbidden fruit.

That doesn't negate any of it in a true-false sense, just brings it to the level where pure faith is needed to buy it. For some Christians that's not a problem - some theologians have even said that it's ideal, since the Bible calls for faith and you can't get more faithful than a Fideist!

 

[MayNilad Man]

God is Just. God could not have just wiped away people's sins because God is Just. But God also loves us, which is why He became man in the person of Jesus, and died for our sins.

When we talk about rejecting the payment that Jesus made, it is more of the active kind. If a man kills, then he goes to hell because he refuses to make amends for his sinful ways. Its like a debtor who was pardoned by bank but then refuses to uplift his financial situation and ends up in debt of a larger amount.

 

[Quiet Sound]

God is Just. God could not have just wiped away people's sins because God is Just.

So God couldn't change his own arbitrary, nonsensical rules until he impregnated a virgin without her consent, who gave birth to himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself to allow himself to save his own flawed creation from himself.
Can you forgive someone without doing that?

If a man kills, then he goes to hell because he refuses to make amends for his sinful ways.

But infinite torment for the finite crime of being born human is just peachy in your view, because Might Makes Right.

 

[MayNilad Man]

So God couldn't change his own arbitrary, nonsensical rules

God has always been. And nonsensical is going way too far, considering it was those rules that form the foundation of the universe.

until he impregnated a virgin without her consent,

What?

who gave birth to himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself to allow himself to save his own flawed creation from himself.

Save creation from itself without sacrificing his principles. He didn't have to save creation, he could've just annihilated it and start from scratch.

Can you forgive someone without doing that?

It's not just about forgiveness, it's also about justice.

But infinite torment for the finite crime of being born human is just peachy in your view, because Might Makes Right.

Denial of God sends you to Hell, not the petty things of downloading porn.
And by Denial of God, I do not mean atheism.

 

[Moonsinger]

God is Just. God could not have just wiped away people's sins because God is Just. But God also loves us, which is why He became man in the person of Jesus, and died for our sins.

It seems to me that God was irresponsible and unjust. First of all, you don't just leave a bottle of poison laying in the middle of the house knowing that your little kids may drink it. Only an evil father would punish his kids for his irresponsibility. You don't just plant the Tree in the middle of the garden and simply tell your kids not to eat its fruits. So evil took the form of the snake to convince Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Instead of punishing evil, he punished the snake and his children. Wait a minute, if someone disguised as President Bush to rob your local bank, do you punish President Bush? Since the real President Bush has nothing to do with your local bank robbery, it would be unjust to punish him. According to the Bible, evil took the form of the snake to talk to Eve. As far as we know, the snake was an innocent and yet God punished the snake. What we have so far is an irresponsible God who like to blame everyone else but himself for his irresponsibility. Like father like son (since God created human in his image, said the Bible), this would explain why we humans often act like him. If you ask the criminal "how to you plead", they usually answer "not guilty". Moreover, they also usually blame the victims too.

When we talk about rejecting the payment that Jesus made, it is more of the active kind. If a man kills, then he goes to hell because he refuses to make amends for his sinful ways. Its like a debtor who was pardoned by bank but then refuses to uplift his financial situation and ends up in debt of a larger amount.

You owe me 1 billion $ because your great grand father owes me 1 billion $. I you know can't possibly pay me 1 billion debt, so I will forgive you. All you have to do is to proclaim to the world that you owe me that money, and I will forgive you. You will be totally debt free, but you must admit that you owe me that billion $ debt, so that I can forgive you.

Sound like some kind of brain washing technique to me. First of all, there is no way I can prove that your great grand father owing anything. Even if he did, you have nothing to do with it. Second, if I'm going to forgive the debt anyway, why do you have to confess that your owe that money. Btw, do you think you owe me any money? Please speak the truth; I can't forgive your debt if you don't confess that you owe me.

 

[EdCase]

Denial of God sends you to Hell, not the petty things of downloading porn.
And by Denial of God, I do not mean atheism.

You cannot deny that which does not exist.

I believe you mean agnostics as atheism is an absence of belief, not a denial (or questioning) based on lack of evidence (generally empirical is the type sought).

Blind faith is disturbing and scary. Be not a sheep , question everything.......

 

[classical_hero]

I don't understand where this debt nonsense comes from. Who the heck thinks it is great to portray god as a loan officer and/or debt collector? Those jobs aren't paragons of virtue by any means. I mean, god's supposed to be this giant father-figure, right? So additionally, what kind of jerk father beats his kids (or lets them be beat) just because they don't pay him back some money?

Admittedly, I'm an atheist, so this is all just hypothetical to me, still the point stands.

Because Jesus himself use the term debt in a way to show how God forgave our sins. While this story is about why we should be forgiving others, because God has forgiven us of a debt that is so great the we can never repay the debt and so he forgave us thus we should forge others since they are only doing minor damage to us compared to the damage that we have done towards God.
Matthew 18:23-35Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


Because we have such a great debt we either need to accept the payment on our behalf, or reject that payment.
Romans 4:1-7What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

If we reject that payment then we are just working towards death, rather than having the gift of Eternal Life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Simple faith is all that is needed for the payment to be accepted. If you believe then you will not be condemned, but if you do not believe then you will be condemned.
John 3:16-21For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[EdCase]

Because Jesus himself use the term debt in a way to show how God forgave our sins. While this story is about why we should be forgiving others, because God has forgiven us of a debt that is so great the we can never repay the debt and so he forgave us thus we should forge others since they are only doing minor damage to us compared to the damage that we have done towards God.
Matthew 18:23-35Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


Because we have such a great debt we either need to accept the payment on our behalf, or reject that payment.
Romans 4:1-7What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

If we reject that payment then we are just working towards death, rather than having the gift of Eternal Life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Simple faith is all that is needed for the payment to be accepted. If you believe then you will not be condemned, but if you do not believe then you will be condemned.
John 3:16-21For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

A little off from the original topic. But... I have have to ask.
How can quoting from a book written by men, translated and revised numerous times, (Not to mention misprints,misinterpretations and downright mistakes.) prove anything?

 

[MayNilad Man]

It seems to me that God was irresponsible and unjust. First of all, you don't just leave a bottle of poison laying in the middle of the house knowing that your little kids may drink it. Only an evil father would punish his kids for his irresponsibility. You don't just plant the Tree in the middle of the garden and simply tell your kids not to eat its fruits. So evil took the form of the snake to convince Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Instead of punishing evil, he punished the snake and his children. Wait a minute, if someone disguised as President Bush to rob your local bank, do you punish President Bush? Since the real President Bush has nothing to do with your local bank robbery, it would be unjust to punish him. According to the Bible, evil took the form of the snake to talk to Eve. As far as we know, the snake was an innocent and yet God punished the snake. What we have so far is an irresponsible God who like to blame everyone else but himself for his irresponsibility. Like father like son (since God created human in his image, said the Bible), this would explain why we humans often act like him. If you ask the criminal "how to you plead", they usually answer "not guilty". Moreover, they also usually blame the victims too.

First of all, the Genesis account is not the sole authority of who/what God is. Second, the Genesis account is not an account of reality. The message is that Man committed Evil, which led them to knowledge of Good and Evil, because they now have an Evil by which to contrast the Good.

You owe me 1 billion $ because your great grand father owes me 1 billion $. I you know can't possibly pay me 1 billion debt, so I will forgive you. All you have to do is to proclaim to the world that you owe me that money, and I will forgive you. You will be totally debt free, but you must admit that you owe me that billion $ debt, so that I can forgive you.

I owe you $5 billion, you forgive the debt. I then borrow $5 billion again, and never repay it. Seems unjust, no?

Sound like some kind of brain washing technique to me. First of all, there is no way I can prove that your great grand father owing anything. Even if he did, you have nothing to do with it. Second, if I'm going to forgive the debt anyway, why do you have to confess that your owe that money. Btw, do you think you owe me any money? Please speak the truth; I can't forgive your debt if you don't confess that you owe me.

Confession is a way of ensuring that the sin is addressed. That the Sin will not be committed again, and that the due compensation is made.

 

[MayNilad Man]

You cannot deny that which does not exist.

Rather dogmatic, no?

I believe you mean agnostics as atheism is an absence of belief, not a denial (or questioning) based on lack of evidence (generally empirical is the type sought).

Actually, I was addressing it to people like you who might misconstrue it to be a statement supporting the belief that Atheists are immediately sent to hell.

Blind faith is disturbing and scary. Be not a sheep , question everything.......

I think that the more I question, the more Catholic I become.

 

[EdCase]

Rather dogmatic, no?

Arrogant ? Indeed. Opinionated ? certainly. But I do not preach doctrine, I simply state the current "state of play" from my own viewpoint, based on the "evidence"

Actually, I was addressing it to people like you who might misconstrue it to be a statement supporting the belief that Atheists are immediately sent to hell.:

Again (in a slightly different form). I cannot be sent to place that does not exist...unless by Hell you mean Florida..which I have happily moved away from now.

I think that the more I question, the more Catholic I become.

As is your right. At least you question, faith found this way is pure (if by my logic ,misguided). Blind faith usually asserted with the statement . "Because God wants me too" IS very scary.

I wish you well and may you find comfort in your beliefs. For that is all that truely matters.

 

[Moonsinger]

First of all, the Genesis account is not the sole authority of who/what God is. Second, the Genesis account is not an account of reality. The message is that Man committed Evil, which led them to knowledge of Good and Evil, because they now have an Evil by which to contrast the Good.

Are you saying that we should listen only to a certain part of the Bible, but not the whole Bible? Are you rejecting those stories in Genesis?

I owe you $5 billion, you forgive the debt. I then borrow $5 billion again, and never repay it. Seems unjust, no?

You are missing the point: you never owe me any money in the place. Why did you confess to owing me $5 billion when you actually owe me nothing? Is it because I promise to forgive your debt?

Even if you actually owe me the first $5 billion, since you couldn't afford to pay it, I would be stupid to let you borrow more money. If I let you borrow another $5 billion when you could afford to pay me a penny the first time, then I have no one to blame but myself.

Confession is a way of ensuring that the sin is addressed. That the Sin will not be committed again, and that the due compensation is made.

Why confess to a crime that you didn't commit? Far worse, you either confess or you will die (or suffer the eternal hell). Some people are so fearing for their lives and decided to confess for crimes they didn't commit. This is totally unethical and unjust.