About Mercantilism (Industry Policy)

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Myrrdin_Emrys, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Myrrdin_Emrys

    Myrrdin_Emrys Warlord

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    Hello all !
    I think now (at least to me) the policies trees are all well balanced so great job !

    But (there is always a but !) at this exception for me of Mercantilism (+2:c5culture:/:c5science: for custom house, bank and Stock exchange). First i find the yields a little low (compared to others policies in different trees) and then the buildings are not the one you prioritize (and the low yields of this policies don't convince me to do it !)

    At the same position in Rationalism tree you get +3:c5culture:/+2:c5science: for villages and in addition it negates all the unhappines from religious unrest.... and when you adopt this policy you have often at least 2/3 villages per city for an instant +9:c5culture:/+6:c5science: per city .... when with mercantilism i have often just one (or at most 2 because Stock exchange comes so laaaaaaaaaate) for at most a +4:c5culture:/+4:c5science: (and often just+2/+2). And no additionnal effect like religious unrest deleted ....
    ANd even if you have no village you may take that policy last in rationalism tree because it is on a dead-end, which is not the case of mercantilism.

    At the same position in Imperialism you get +4:c5science:/+1:c5culture: per barrack/armory/military academy and in addition +33% Great General generation. Again the yields are higher (a total of +5 vs a total of +4) and when you get this policy you often always have barracks and armories in all your cities (both buildings producings science, production, supply limit and negate crime) so you have and instant +8:c5science:/+2:c5culture: vs again at most (at least for me) +4/+4 and often just a +2/+2. Again if you don't wanna take this policy it is on a dead end and you can pick it last.

    So does Mercantilism needs some love ? I think so ! Or else if you have some ideas to tell me why i'm not totally right i'm listenning :)

    Ideas of buffs for mercantilism :
    -Add one additionnal effect (trade route can go further ? Or buff the yields of East indiana Company national wonders (it's thematic with the name of the policy Mercantilism) for example +5:c5production:/+5:c5gold: to it
    -Change the buildings requirements (stock exchange really comes to late for me) Add/remplace stock exchange with market, even if i know markets are already buffed by piety so with piety+industry you could get .... supermarket !
    -Change and up a little the affected yields (for a total of +5 combined scicne/culture ike the 2 others policies) or instead keep the +2/+2 and add a +3:c5gold:for each of those buildings, or +2:c5production: (because we are in industry tree) for each of those buildings.

    Of course my ideas are just here for the examples and are maybe totally unbalanced, just to give inspiration in case of buff about mercantilism.

    ANd again i don't participate to much on this forum because i have rarely something to say, but a big thanks for your work and this amazing mod !
     
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  2. Starrynite120

    Starrynite120 Prince

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    I don't think it needs any love. First, Industry is already a really strong tree and as a whole goes very well.

    Second Rationalism is about science and culture, so it should be better at that (and frankly the religious bonus barely does anything). On the other hand, Industry is MUCH better with gold and production than rationalism.

    And its not like the policy is weak. It still gives a decent amount of culture and science. Also, Industry civs will (usually) have more cities and thus more potential for yields than rationalism, which is (usually) taken by tall civs.

    As for Imperialism, it is generally weaker on yields, so for one policy to be clearly better isn't a big deal. It kind of needs it.

    Direct comparisons of specific policies usually is unreliable, as it doesn't take into account the strengths of the tree as a whole.
     
  3. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    Bank is one of my top priority building, especially if i am swimming in gold. So i can spend my gold with interest. Custom house is nice if you are going for external trade route. I need to recheck what effect stock exchange does.
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    You take Industrialism because you have many many cities, so they are probably underdeveloped. Main purpose of Industrialism is to build buildings fast. To achieve this you get a discount on gold purchases, meaning investing in buildings is quite profitable. To focus on this is to focus on gold. You really want money buildings first, so the extra gold is expended in faster development.
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Honestly I agree with the assessment. I'd like to see the yields changed to +2:c5science:/:c5culture:/:c5gold:/:c5production: for custom house, bank and stock exchange.

    Also rationalism is great in wide empires. The monopoly bonuses are insane.
     
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  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    The policy is weak, but Industry by itself is not bad imho. Your comparison with Imperialism is bad considering Imperialism has rather awful yields, it's one of the only two policies that provide any worthwhile yields (that and Exploitation, and I guess finisher but Industry's better still).

    The one with Rationalism makes more sense, Industry might have gotten hit a bit too hard while Rationalism got only buffs and Imperialism got a weird rework that gave it some of it's stuff faster at the cost of becoming way worse in the long run, like losing occupied city production which I've often used to build a courthouse/important UB like Colosseum, Jelling faster, -1 GG/embarkation movement and IIRC something else lost. Instead, it got a meagre 4 Gold per citadel/fort is a very bad deal as Citadel gold won't matter even for Rome and forts are only worth working on tundras and access to tougher ships earlier than finisher, which is good. I think Rationalism needs a nerf and/or the other two need buffs, but that might just be me. Scientific Revolution just isn't balanced, percentage yield monopoly increase means having Copper alone as your monopoly gives you more bang from that policy than Imperialism gets from all its scalers for wider or taller empire. Imagine having Dyes, Whales and Copper, nothing can compare, ideologies included. It needs to go to 5% at most when it concerns yields, there's no reason why going this tree gave you +15% Science (scaler + opener IIRC), +10% Food/Science (if you can perma GA), often another +15% Science and/or +15% Production or +15% Gold, heavens forbid if you also get Cocoa and Marble for bonus +30% Culture. It's too good if you get percentages as any yield percentage monopoly pretty much instantly means going anything but Rationalism is hurting yourself, but still holds it's own if you only get regular monopolies. I'm a warmongerer but every time I see any percentage monopoly (almost inevitable), I know Rationalism is the way to go. No weaknesses, good for wide and tall, absolutely broken if % bonuses are present, best Faith GP. It definitely got overbuffed.

    Still I agree, +2S +2C +2G (and/or +2P?) per Bank/CHouse/Stock seems like an okay idea. Imperialism could get it's stuff back, I don't know why it's all gone when Imperialism still has by far the worst yields out of all trees when instead of losing the genuinely useful stuff like way better embarkation/faster GGs/better occupation it could've lost the nearly worthless things, like everything related to City States it has. I think I've upgraded units in CS lands once in all my games, if I go Imperialism I'm likely a big, scary warmongerer so easier scaring of CSs is worthless - doubly so considering it's so late, I should probably have enough Chanceries to make any bullying a bad idea yield-wise when it's easier to build a diplomat and get Friendbucks, though the big, scary warmongerer should go Rationalism too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
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  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Probably better nerf Rationalism than buffing anything. When going small (6 cities) I find that I don't have much use for monopolies or the village thing. And large civs don't get extra science if unhappy.
     
  8. Dawnpromise

    Dawnpromise Prince

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    Personally I always thought the monopolies effect would be more thematic in the Industry policy line. But I suppose it would make Industry too strong for wide then.
     
  9. Myrrdin_Emrys

    Myrrdin_Emrys Warlord

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    Yeah you are right about the direct comparison it was not the wisest decision.

    And yes a tree should be taken as a whole not part by part. But whenever I have to take this policy in my head it's always.... mmm i need one more policy to get something. If the whole tree is balanced, then to make this policy appealing should we remove some bonus from other policy in this tree to give it to mercantilism ? Because (and it's maybe only me, feel free to share your opinion), i always take this policy last....

    Industry is one of the only tree were i always want to take one policy last, so it's not real choice, and i dont like this

    How to make Mercantilism more appealing without addng nothing to Industry ? Maybe split and share the bonuses of some other policies in the same tree with Mercantilism (it's just an idea i had, i did not really had time to think about it)
    Free Trade +5 :c5gold: for internation TR and +20% poverty unhappiness Reduction
    Entrepreneurship +1:c5gold:/:c5production: to mine/lumbermill/quarry and +25% Great Merchant generation
    Division of Labor +2:c5production:/+1:c5gold: to factory/windmill/workshop and investing in a building reduce its production by an additional 10%
    Protectionism +2 TR +33% for internal TR

    What about giving to Mercantilism the +33% for internal TR from Protectionism ?
    Or splittng bonus from free trade giving 10% poverty reduction to Mercantilism and the other half to free trade . Or splitting in the same way the Great Merchant Generation ?
    Well we could of course let Mercantilism like that if not so much are complaining :)

    About some comments saying you go Rationalism when tall and Industry when wide, maybe i'm playing poorly but i may disagree. I can go Rationalism when tall, but rationalism is really great when wide too (Village buffs breaks farm cluster and when i want to go tall, i want a lot of farm no village, so village buff is great when wide ! In the same way when tall you have generally only 1 monopoly .... and often at least 2 or 3 when wide ! And at the contrary with Tall empire with industry you can invest nearly each construction in each city because you don't have a lot of city to invest and the cost of investments is still low cuz less cities, so you can have a permanent -60% production cost in all your cities .... you can't really achieve that when wide !) Don't get me wrong i'm not saying Rationalism is a way to go when wide and Industry when tall, i jsut say at least to me it's really depending on which victory condition i want to achieve and what are my needs in my games at the moment i reach the tier 3 policies !
     

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