About submarines

Kleppo

Chieftain
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Nov 8, 2005
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19
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Finland
I was just wondering that do submarines act in CivIV like they did in CivIII, in case of other nations vessel running into same tile that the sub is, and then war is declared? If I remember correctly, this was the case even when the sub was inside your own borders. This was quite annoying, making the use subs really useless, just wars popping out every now and then...
 

Crighton

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Jan 3, 2006
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you get the option to declare war on the other guy when you move the sub into a tile occupied by another civ. subs also can violate ai borders (not sure if they're spotted by an enemy destroy what will happen). subs can also ferry spies.

and thats about it, no tactical nukes or cruisemissles to carry, or icbms :(
 

loraque

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Feb 7, 2006
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I have found them to be underwhelming too. If a unit cannot see them, it should not even be able to fight back. And yet they die, seemingly, very easy to things that cannot even position them.

Being able to scout coastal cities might be valuable, depending. I have used them to keep an eye on things, but using them as a blockade tool is a mistake. Use destroyers.
 

Jarrod32

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Nov 17, 2005
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North Central US
They are good for intelligence gathering and observing, as they can enter other borders (like caravels) without penalty. They can carry spys.

They are also useful for pillaging.

They can easily kill transports.

They start with a 50% withdraw chance if they are losing the battle; give them Flanking I and II, and they have an 80% withdraw chance. Hit a battleship with a sub first, and the sub will likely survive (withdraw) after damaging the battleship, then a destroyer can finish off the battleship. Or use the sub to wound an enemy battleship or destroyer before they can hit your carrier or transport, to protect your convoy. Your sub withdraws, to fight another day. Use them for hit-and-run tactics.

Are they the best naval units? No. But with a high withdraw chance, they can be very useful if you use them right.
 

gunkulator

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NH, USA
Unlike Civ3 and earlier versions, in Civ4 units of different nationalities can occupy the same tile unless they are already at war.
 

Mista

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Nov 11, 2004
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Location
Kentucky
Destroyers can see subs, and therefore subs are visible to destroyers of friendly nations. I have scouted their coasts and stationed subs on lookout near friendly ports just to monitor ship movements. No reaction from the other, unless he decides to go to war. I also station them around my borders. They can give early warning if someone decided to send a fleet of transports toward me, giving me time to gather defensive units. You rarely see undefended transports, but if you do ... also once your capital ships take out the defenders, the subs can sink the transports. When they use older Frigates and Galleons, those are easy prey for the sub.
 

senwiz

Prince
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Feb 27, 2006
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Appleton, WI
I have found subs only good for one thing, delivering spies.

Destroyers are useless for killing anything other than destroyers, subs, and transports.

Battleships rock for everything. Once you can build them....Build lots!!!! I use them as the defenders for transports, and build a few subs for my spies.

The key to spies....Make sure that you can get them quickly to the subs.
 

Olleus

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Oct 30, 2005
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Beyond the Veil
submarines should not be used against warships, it is not their use. use them for picking off transports, carriers or for pillaging.
 

Damion_Foster

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Jan 23, 2006
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as for the uses of subs, they are mainly used against carrier/transports just as they were by the germans back in WW2...but one thing I have to gripe about is the fact that nuclear subs can't carry nuclear weapons...I know alot of people are all "NO NUKES!" but I happen to like a stategically place nuclear warhead up montezuma's tail pipes sometime...and it'd be even better if the only way to know what country the nuke was from was to have a destroyer in the area...course the nukes would need a like...2 or 3 tiles range that way it couldent be...too abused :-D
 

Crighton

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Jan 3, 2006
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Currently the US has 18 missle subs which carry ICBMs and MIRV warheads that can reach anywhere on the planet. I wish there was a missle sub with tactical (much shorter range) nuke on it. I think this made tremendous sense and brought balance to the earlier versions.

I may have a small island, but my Navy will make you more than pay for invading it.
 

Damion_Foster

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Jan 23, 2006
Messages
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Crighton said:
Currently the US has 18 missle subs which carry ICBMs and MIRV warheads that can reach anywhere on the planet. I wish there was a missle sub with tactical (much shorter range) nuke on it. I think this made tremendous sense and brought balance to the earlier versions.

I may have a small island, but my Navy will make you more than pay for invading it.


Exactly...there are a bunch of vehicles that if I had the ability to mod... or the patience... I would have many units with nuclear (or some other sort of super weapon) capibility (bombers, SCUDS, ect...) but maybe at a huge price...like lets say arming a single bomber with nuclear weapons would require 1 uranium, 2 aluminum and roughly 4k in gold...of course I need to look into getting a new computer cause well...my computer blows and overheats...lol
 

Breunor

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Jul 2, 2004
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Earth
In the game, subs are good on continents and archi maps mostly. Put them on the opponents sea resources. They can kill them, and they are useful for spying.

Think of them as WWI or WWII type subs. They are commerce raiders and conduct intelligence. They don't fight warships. They aren't Seawolfs.

Breunor
 

Bezhukov

Deity
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Dec 8, 2004
Messages
2,001
The Desert War scenario provides a good opportunity to explore the value of subs. They serve as a sort of seaborne artillery, which is required for battles outside air range or where there is air defense.
 

gunkulator

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senwiz said:
I have found subs only good for one thing, delivering spies.

Destroyers are useless for killing anything other than destroyers, subs, and transports.

They're pretty darn good at blasting old AI Frigates and Galleons out of the water. If you give them the first strike promotions, that's usually good enough to beat AI destroyers. Since the AI rarely builds much of a navy anyway, battleships are overkill, and they're slow besides. The main use I make of destroyers is to bombard AI coastal cities down to 0% defense.
 

Ranos

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Feb 6, 2002
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Minnesota
migthegreek said:
Submarines are crap. They can't even kill anything.
I just had to stop reading and reply to this. You have obviously been using subs incorrectly, if you have ever used them.

In my current game, I have more Subs than Destroyers. They move unseen unless they encounter another sub or destroyer. Using Drydocks and civics or the Pentagon, you can turn out subs with an 80% chance to withdraw when attacking. In my current game, I finally lost my first sub on the turn before I quit to come to work. My subs can easily sink transports and carriers and have even taken out a couple of full strength destroyers. They are great for mop up operations. I have one sub with four promotions, Flanking I & II and Drill I & II.

Subs are far more useful than you seem to think.
 

Valaire

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
12
I personally find naval combat to be the weakest point of Civ4's combat. And yes I agree that Submarines are next to useless most of the time. The fact of the matter is I usually only build them because they, in reality, are cool, not because they benefit me in the game. But really, my gripe is with the entire naval concept in the game.
 

DarkFyre99

Prince
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Jan 3, 2006
Messages
419
Beyond their use as a transport for spies, subs can also be used for:

Scouting: Subs are an excellent way to keep an eye on other Civ's coasts

Blockading: Are you at war? Putting a sub or two outside your enemy's ports will deprive his workers of sustinence, and his empire of gold Keep a warship or two nearby to take out their attempts to sink your ship. It also deprives his trade route access to the sea... useful if he doesn't have an airport yet, and is alone on his continent. Your sub, after all, can block a total of nine squares: the square its in, and the eight squares around it.

Raiding: Unprotected transports on the way to invade? Unsupported carrier bombing your improvements? A few lurking subs will sink them to the bottom. Also great for pillaging undefended sea resources.

Damaging enemy warships: As others have pointed out, subs with Flanking II have an 80% chance to withdraw from a losing battle. Send in the subs first, and your navy (with Drill promotions) will walk all over their foes. Sure, you might lose one or two... but they're cheaper than destroyers or battleships. :)
 

T_Raccoon

Warlord
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Nov 6, 2005
Messages
188
Location
Chicago
some of you guys arent really using the submarine like youre supposed too cause you dont know how to adapt to its traits well. Its traits are mainly its withdrawal chance and its hammer cost. If you guys keep saying the sub is crap then try playing an MP game with someone who builds only subs against your battleships and then tell me who will win the naval war.
 
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