About the AI...

[Willgar]

First post but long time player of the civ series (since the commodore Amiga version) and FFH2 is easily the finest civ mod i have played -
Been trolling these boards but cant find the answer to a few questions and was wondering if a more enlightened player could provide me with a definitive answer:

1) Does the AI understand the magic system - and if so, why do they routinely fail to rebuild pillaged nodes or use summoned units - is this a function of difficulty level?

2)In a few games the AI (even the pirate lot) dont seem to want to conquer the "new world" - does the AI optomise for the map settings?

3)Also, I have seen some odd AI behaviour. Recently, two ai players - both good alignment, both of the same religion, both a similar size and approximate rank (3rd / 4th) both with pleased rating and previously within an alliance suddenly went to war with each other. A conflict they conducted with both of them described as "pleased" with the other. Seen other similar freak situations - what causes this?

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to the mod creators - fine work, Sid would be proud i am sure

 

[Kael]

Answer 2 and 3 are going to be vanilla civ type questions. Im not sure how well the AI deals with it, but the AI in BtS is much better than in vanilla so once we get to BtS it should be better than it is in 0.23.

For the first question, the spell system has been rewritten from the ground up in the BtS conversion (version 0.24) just so the AI will understand it. I cant promise that in every situation the AI will do the exact thing it could (trying to program for every situation is impossible). But the AI is able to understand every spell to some level, and if that isnt possible with how the spell works in 0.23 then the spell is being changed to a more AI friendly version.

So in 0.24 the AI can cast pillar of flame, tsunami, banish, rust, cure disease, etc etc and ist makes intellegent decisions about them. It is aware of summons movement and strength when it thinks about which one to cast, looking for the most powerful summon that will reach its opponent.

 

[Willgar]

Thanks for the response - One last thing, does the AI need to build on a mana node to utilise it?

 

[Kael]

Thanks for the response - One last thing, does the AI need to build on a mana node to utilise it?

Yes, just like players.

 

[Vulcans]

Answer 2 and 3 are going to be vanilla civ type questions. Im not sure how well the AI deals with it, but the AI in BtS is much better than in vanilla so once we get to BtS it should be better than it is in 0.23.

For the first question, the spell system has been rewritten from the ground up in the BtS conversion (version 0.24) just so the AI will understand it. I cant promise that in every situation the AI will do the exact thing it could (trying to program for every situation is impossible). But the AI is able to understand every spell to some level, and if that isnt possible with how the spell works in 0.23 then the spell is being changed to a more AI friendly version.

So in 0.24 the AI can cast pillar of flame, tsunami, banish, rust, cure disease, etc etc and ist makes intellegent decisions about them. It is aware of summons movement and strength when it thinks about which one to cast, looking for the most powerful summon that will reach its opponent.

Great news.
it'll be great to see the AI using magic. that is the core of this game, i don't think I’ve ever played a game wityhout magic, as that's where most of the end game power comes from.

Currently the endgame seems to easy, the AT stack sits in the city, while I cast crush, then 21 metiors from 3 blocks away with my 3 arcmages+3Lich+Hemah. By the time my units get to the city it’s always empty. I’ve destroyed many continents without a single combat. The only reason I’d spare units from the spells is for feeding experience to mages.

Will the AI also specialize different spell casters, eg making law3, mind2, earth death3 arc mages /liches for unyielding order, and then know that it has a limt for national units, and so leave enough arc mage/lich slots for a level3 bluff, and a few C5 SE2 meteor/crush arc mages? I wonder what the AI would chose to do with spells like flesh golem.

Also will the AI know how to use Govannon? Moving all units to one location to be trained at once, training death1 to many units, and using C5 SE2 casters to summon? Also when playing amurite, it’d be great if there was a auto-haste possibility for workers, it’s a pain to go around the entire kingdom every turn to activate haste on each of my workers.

 

[Kael]

Great news.
it'll be great to see the AI using magic. that is the core of this game, i don't think I’ve ever played a game wityhout magic, as that's where most of the end game power comes from.

Currently the endgame seems to easy, the AT stack sits in the city, while I cast crush, then 21 metiors from 3 blocks away with my 3 arcmages+3Lich+Hemah. By the time my units get to the city it’s always empty. I’ve destroyed many continents without a single combat. The only reason I’d spare units from the spells is for feeding experience to mages.

Will the AI also specialize different spell casters, eg making law3, mind2, earth death3 arc mages /liches for unyielding order, and then know that it has a limt for national units, and so leave enough arc mage/lich slots for a level3 bluff, and a few C5 SE2 meteor/crush arc mages? I wonder what the AI would chose to do with spells like flesh golem.

Also will the AI know how to use Govannon? Moving all units to one location to be trained at once, training death1 to many units, and using C5 SE2 casters to summon? Also when playing amurite, it’d be great if there was a auto-haste possibility for workers, it’s a pain to go around the entire kingdom every turn to activate haste on each of my workers.

Yes the AI specializes casters just fine.

The move to cast spells are the most difficult. But they are doable. I wrote AI logic for the Spring spell in 0.23 and it works fine. All I have to do is create a similiar function for each spell that requires "optomizing moves". That hasn't been done yet.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Speaking of moving to cast spells, a tactic I use often that I thought would be great for the AI to use is when I move my casting unit to cast a spell, then move him back to safety (either to a city or a fortified stack of units). This is very useful when being invaded and you have roads to move on (plus, possibly, Mobility I and/or Haste).

 

[xanaqui42]

2)In a few games the AI (even the pirate lot) dont seem to want to conquer the "new world" - does the AI optomise for the map settings?

Vanilla AI doesn't really know now to use boats/ships well, particuarly for the purpose of invasions. In theory, Smarter Orcs should be better at this, although I think we still have the requisite technologies turned off (i.e. the AI will rarely research them). Hopefully, Beyond the Sword is better as well, although I haven't researched it yet.

As to your more general question, the answer is pretty much "no". There probably are a few things I'm forgetting, but even in BetterAI-based versions, there is a depressing amount of the AI that's assuming a "standard" map. It should be quite possible to cripple the Vanilla AI with the right map (my experience is that small islands does the trick well enough).

 

[xanaqui42]

Answer 2 and 3 are going to be vanilla civ type questions. Im not sure how well the AI deals with it, but the AI in BtS is much better than in vanilla so once we get to BtS it should be better than it is in 0.23.

For the first question, the spell system has been rewritten from the ground up in the BtS conversion (version 0.24) just so the AI will understand it. I cant promise that in every situation the AI will do the exact thing it could (trying to program for every situation is impossible). But the AI is able to understand every spell to some level, and if that isnt possible with how the spell works in 0.23 then the spell is being changed to a more AI friendly version.

So in 0.24 the AI can cast pillar of flame, tsunami, banish, rust, cure disease, etc etc and ist makes intellegent decisions about them. It is aware of summons movement and strength when it thinks about which one to cast, looking for the most powerful summon that will reach its opponent.

Wonderful news

 

[Kael]

Wonderful news

Yeah, Im very interested to get your feedback on the new source code. Unfortunatly I can't upload it until v13 releases, but once I do I will definitly want to get your feedback on it and ways to improve it.

 

[seZereth]

Yeah, Im very interested to get your feedback on the new source code. Unfortunatly I can't upload it until v13 releases, but once I do I will definitly want to get your feedback on it and ways to improve it.

go for it xanaqui!!!! hope you can help out our ol` Kael

 

[Kael]

I just experienced a personal first. I am playing Cassiel, teamed up with Basium and marching along with him into hell Infernal and Sheaim lands. I split a group of 4 Dragon Slayers (one of which is a hero) and 2 mages off from the main army to clear out a Sheaim outpost.

As my little group approcahes a specter is summoned from the city and comes at a few tiles way. Very cool, but I already knew that was fixed as I have really been pushing the summon AI. We killed the specter, bombard with a couple fireballs and move in next to the city.

What surprises is the decimation that comes next, 2 Ring of Flames are cast against me from the city and then the AI send a Pyre Zombie out to explode all over my group. Then a few defenders hit me hard. The entire defending force was much weaker than mine but when its done I have only the hero and mages left. We slink back out of ring of fire range and call more troops over.

We did take the city, but I had hoped that the new spell system would work better and I couldnt have been happier to see it put to use. AI can always be better, but the BtS version is a huge step over 0.23 (though I cant speak for Xan's smarter orcs mod).

 

[seZereth]

I just experienced a personal first. I am playing Cassiel, teamed up with Basium and marching along with him into hell Infernal and Sheaim lands. I split a group of 4 Dragon Slayers (one of which is a hero) and 2 mages off from the main army to clear out a Sheaim outpost.

As my little group approcahes a specter is summoned from the city and comes at a few tiles way. Very cool, but I already knew that was fixed as I have really been pushing the summon AI. We killed the specter, bombard with a couple fireballs and move in next to the city.

What surprises is the decimation that comes next, 2 Ring of Flames are cast against me from the city and then the AI send a Pyre Zombie out to explode all over my group. Then a few defenders hit me hard. The entire defending force was much weaker than mine but when its done I have only the hero and mages left. We slink back out of ring of fire range and call more troops over.

We did take the city, but I had hoped that the new spell system would work better and I couldnt have been happier to see it put to use. AI can always be better, but the BtS version is a huge step over 0.23 (though I cant speak for Xan's smarter orcs mod).

sounds awesome, finally a good step on the way of making magic a bit less game breaking

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Hmm... Try it later when they have summoners and see if they use 'consume soul' effectively... that would be scary.
And have you given the ai any logic regarding feast?
Actually, that reminds me of what I think the AI's third biggest weakness was (after spells and teching for some civs)--using and countering high level units and heroes effectively.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That reminds me, in BtS a vampire can use feast on a city of any size, allowing it to reduce a city to negative population. Of course, the vamp actually loses xp by doing so.

 

[Vulcans]

Hmm... Try it later when they have summoners and see if they use 'consume soul' effectively... that would be scary.
And have you given the ai any logic regarding feast?
Actually, that reminds me of what I think the AI's third biggest weakness was (after spells and teching for some civs)--using and countering high level units and heroes effectively.

is consume soul a new spell? or do you mean destroy undead or banish?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Its not a new spell, its just only available to Dream Eaters (the Sheaim Summoner UU)

 

[formless blob]

I see talk about the AI being able to do this and that, but I am not seeing it in my game. The AI is a total pushover, who never does anything and almost only builds warriors in his cities. This is on Prince, with aggressive AI, normally a challenging level for me in BtS. The version is 0.25, patch c.

I just quit a game on turn 250ish (normal speed), where the AI had done nothing. So anyway, my question is whether this is because of the recent conversion to BtS, or is the AI just not developed much?