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Absenteeism Laws

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game III: Citizens' started by Octavian X, Jul 22, 2003.

  1. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    Well that was all there was to go on. Article D was pretty narrow to start with. All the Judiciary did was agree that it said what it said. That is not our fault.
     
  2. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Well, to be honest, there were things, like deputy appointments, that we could have allowed, as they were not even official positions nor were they leader roles. However, we could not have made an exception for Presidential appointments in mid-term without clearly violating the Constitution.
     
  3. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Hey, everyone is doing just fine....except for the absentee people. Let's stop pointing fingers and use those fingers for something more useful (if you catch my drift). Can't we work on fixing our problems without assigning blame?
     
  4. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Ok, Cyc, I'll stop assigning blame. Do you have any suggestions for this?
     
  5. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Sure, boots. Put me on the spot. :D I have purposely been staying away from discussions such as these, but...if you want my opinion....

    After reading this thread, I must say that I agree with two posts made in the begining. Zarn in post #3 and Octavian in post #4 seem to be the most agreeable to my point of view. I would not mind seeing Article D. being amended to accomodate these points of view. I believe the "only by election" clause has worked well so far, but I would like to grease the wheels, so to speak, in regards of Leader/Deputy replacement. Personally, I remember the debate of absenteeism in DG1. And I remember what I said. We do not have room or time for Leaders or Deputies that can't fill the responsibilities of their position. It doesn't matter if they had to take the family camping for a 3-day weekend, or they got hit by a car. Someone should be in place to take care of any decision-making or posting that is required. If noone is is place, then someone should have the authority to correct the situation in a timely manner. Yes, that sounds a little harsh, but it also sounds very proficient, and I hope that is what we are leaning towards here.
     
  6. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    cyc: hmmm. i would have expected a little more specific proposal


    so how do we determine if someone is absent? this is maybe one of the most important questions...
    maybe we should introduce a "leader here" thread where each leader has to post at least one time per day when he is on the forum? and if no post can be found for 2 consecutive days then he is considered absent with his deputy taking over and will be pm'ed by whomever... if he doesnt reply for the next 5 days he is finally removed from office and the deputy becomes leader...


    EDIT:
    maybe one addition: if a leader is considered absent and the deputy temporarily takes over (in the above example this means after 2 days for up to a week)... if the leader comes back, he should not be allowed to take over his role again until after the next TC (this will ensure the person organizing things can also bring them to an end in the TC).
     
  7. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Take Gingerbread Man (GBM). He is definitely absent. He doesn't post in his Provincial thread and he doesn't post in the Turn Chat Instrustion thread. It's time he was removed. How can I tell? What am I using as a basis for my judgement? I just told you. It's obvious he is lacking in the Major Responsibilities of his position.

    If a Leader doesn't post in 3 days (72 hrs), then he is absent and the Deputy can take over as leader. If there is no Deputy, the Chat Rep can move up to take the Leader position. If there is no Chat Rep, then the President may appoint someone to fill the gap in his Cabinet. No public approval poll would be required, as the people voted to put in that leader in the first place, so obviously the people's judgement in that area was not up to snuff. Because they voted that person in, they caused the President extra work and the nation uneeded downtime.

    Of course Article D. would have to be changed or removed to make this effective.

    By posting in 72 hours, I'm not talking about a "I'm here" thread either. I'm talking about the Leader's Government thread (Provincial or Departmental), and any relevant discussion that involves them. This discussion could be a post from a mayor to a Governor, it could be a post to there Department thread, it could be a post or a thread in the Citizen's subforum that directly affects that Leader's responsibilities.

    If the Leader comes back to the game after they have been replaced, they must make ammends with a moderator, who may place them back in the Leader position. But this placement back into their position may not take effect until after the following t/c. (thanks to dis for that one.)

    There, that's fairly specific.
     
  8. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Code:
    C.  Deputies and Absenteeism
    	1.  Deputies, Chat Representatives, and Pro-Tem officials.
    		a.  The runner-up in a regular election shall be made the deputy of that position.
    			1.  The President's deputy shall be known as the Vice President.
    			2.  Members of the Judiciary do not have deputies.
    		b.  Ohe person may hold an unlimited number of deputy positions.
    		c.  Leaders, other than the President and members of Judiciary, may also appoint,
    		    at their discresion, Chat Representatives to represent them at Turn Chats.
    		d.  Members of the Judiciary may, during one specific period of announced absence,
    		    may appoint a pro-tem official to fill in their duties.
    
    	2.  Absenteeism
    		a.  An official (leader, deputy, chat rep., or otherwise) is considered absent
    		    from a turn chat when they are  not present.  An official who is absent from
    		    the turn chat is not considered absent from the Forum until the Forum
    		    absenteeism requirement has been met.
    		b.  An official (leader, deputy, chat rep., or otherwise) will be considered as
    		    having an unannouced absence from the Forum when they have not posted
    		    meaningfully for 72 hours.
    		c.  An official (leader, deputy, chat rep., or otherwise) will be considered as
    		    having an announced absence when they have posted (with a date of return) so
    		    in the Official Absence Thread of the Citizen's Forum.  If 72 hours have
    		    passed after a date of return, the official will be considered as having an
    		    unannoucned absence.
    		d.  When an official is considered absent, his deputy may start acting in his
    		    stead.  If the deputy is absent, and chat representative may do the same.
    		e.  After an official has been considered unofficialy absent for 48 hours
    		    (72h initial period + 48h more), he may be removed from office at the
    		    President's discresion.  If a leader is removed, then his deputy
    		    replaces him.  If a deputy is removed, than the chat rep. replaces
    		    him.  If there is a vacancy due to the fact that none of these
    		    positions are open, then the President may select appoint a new
    		    citizen to fill the position.
    This is what I have so far.... Comments, please.
     
  9. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    Section e:

    1) I would like to see a provision made for contacting the absent official by PM before this section takes affect.

    2) If the official is going to be removed, I would rather the deputy take over for the leader as they did have the support of the citizens in the last election. Absent deputies or deputy positions empty due to being promoted to leader can then have a special election. Since chat reps are appointed, if they are absent, the leader can just appoint a new one.
     
  10. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Nice, simple, clear - not too bad.

    Suggestions:

    Changes
    2.c. having an unannounced absence (typo)
    2.d. If the deputy is absent, the chat representative (typo)
    2.e. unofficialy absent for 120 hours (72h initial period + 48h more)

    New sections
    1.d.1 All members of the Judiciary must accept the person appointed. More of a check to make sure the person appointed is up to the task

    Other possibilities
    I'm still mulling it, but an emergency procedure? Say the official is out of contact for 36 hours, the next in line may function in the role only for a specific, declared emergency that directly involves the duties of that office.

    Like I said, I'm still mulling it over. I can think of a very, very few circumstances that might trigger this. That's a lot of very few and might, meaning the chance is really small, so it's probably not worth it.

    That's all for now - I'll mull it over some more.

    I know everyone hates dealing with the beaurocratic stuff, but if we get it right now, the future is smooth sailing! Please folks, help out with this, even if it's just to say "Looks good!"

    -- Ravensfire
     
  11. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Code:
    b.  An official (leader, deputy, chat rep., or otherwise) will be considered as
    		    having an unannouced absence from the Forum when they have not posted
    		    [b]meaningfully[/b] for 72 hours.
    What does meaningfully mean?
    Also, I agree with both things zorven has said. Someone who is absent should be contacted by the President by PM informing that they are considered absent.
     
  12. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    It looks good to me also. In regards to comments posted after the proposed poll statement, I would say the following:

    Zorven's first point is OK, I don't see a problem with this other than it may be better if the VP sent the PM.
    Zoren's second point is already handled by the statement. The Deputy or Chat Rep already moves up into place. A special election could be by-passed by the new Leader appointing a Chat Rep and then having thenew Chat Rep move up to the Deputy position. We don't need to take the time for a Special Election.

    ravensfire, your changes to 2.c and 2.e are not needed. The statement is typed correctly. 2.d does need correcting. I'm not real sure about the point you're mulling over either.

    boots, meaningful is a pretty shakey word to use in that statement, but I think common sense would prevail in this situation and be easy enough to figure out :)
     
  13. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Cyc,

    The changes were spelling or wrong word typed in.

    2.c unannoucned vs unannounced
    2.e If the deputy is absent, and chat representative ... vs If the deputy is abscent, the chat representative ...

    Oct, I'm agreeing with the comments about a warning PM to be sent. I would suggest a warning PM sent around 48 hours, following by a "You are Absent" at 72. At 120, "You are Dismissed" goes out. In addition, a post should be made to the relevant thread with the same warnings. Using the VP for such things seems a good option. I think we can rely on the Prez to handle the VP disappearing. 'Course, with CG's luck, he'll always be the VP, and we'll never have to worry! :D

    Given that, I would suggest that a "meaningful" post under such circumstances would be defined as any determinable participation in the DG. Voting, for example, is anonymous. We can't determine who you are. A PM or post in a thread has both User and Timestamp information.

    I do also like Zorven's 2nd point as well. Keep's the game flowing.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  14. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    @ravensfire - please check your 2.e in your post #33 and your 2.e in your post #30. :D Thanks.
     
  15. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Yup. The word "the" is in italics - that's what I was suggesting it be changed to.
    :D
    Your welcome!
     
  16. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    :lol: @ravensfire - please check your 2.e in your post #33 and your 2.e in your post #30. Thanks.


    __________________
     
  17. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Oh, my "absent" typo. I really, really hate that durn word. I just about always spell it wrong.

    :wallbash:

    That's what I get for doubting the master proofer!

    G'night all, the lady calls, and I'm not that big of a fool to ignore her!

    -- Ravensfire
     
  18. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Nope. Sorry ravensfire. 2.e had to with the number of hours and 2.d had to do with the word the.

    I'm just laughing it up a bit. You did catch me on 2.c but 2.e was correct and had nothing to do with spelling, actually. Even tho you're correct in saying that your correction was spelled incorrectly. No hard feelings ravensfire, or to the lady.
     
  19. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Section e was changed to allow deputies/chat reps to fill in. That was an oversight on my part.

    boots: meaningfully, being a post more than 'I'm here' every three days.

    I'll play around with the proposal based on the comments...
     
  20. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    DOH!

    That's what happens after 10 hours of work. Ravensfire goes slightly crazy ...

    I think my point on e was to combine the hours to simplify things. Whew - I completely missed that one Cyc! Hope it made your day a bit better!

    And the lady thanks you all for allowing me to escort her to dinner and a night out this evening. If any of you stop in St. Louis, I can recommend a few places for you, especially if you like Italian or steak.

    -- Ravensfire
     

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