Acheron more like Smaug

[Go Boks]

I find Acheron kind of boring as is, considering he is held. In every single one of my games, he is basically a late game happiness boost. You wait until you have a unit capable of killing him, then get some gold, culture and happiness resources in one of your cities. He doesn't even ignite the continent anymore, as he doesn't chuck fireballs at passing units.

It would be more interesting, IMO, if he acted a bit more like Orthus in that he was capable of ravaging the countryside. However, being as powerful as he is, he needs a different dynamic to Orthus.

Basically, I think you should toggle the held promotion on and off. When he is built, it is off as he needs to go and establish his hoard. He needs special AI that makes him fly to the nearest city, pillage the land, kill a unit or two and retreat back to his city. Maybe allow him to destroy a building or two inside a city. Then, every once and a while, the held promotion toggles back off and he goes on a mini rampage again.

It would be even cooler if he isn't built in a city either, but rather spawns at some point like Orthus does. Then he conquers one city and makes it his own. After that, he doesn't conquer any more cities, but just goes on random pillaging and unit killing escapades. Maybe make him a big enough nuisance that it makes sense for you to build a bunch of settlers and move away, like the Dwarves in the Hobbit, but that probably is not feasible considering how Civ works.

Maybe you could create an event when Acheron takes one of your cities that makes this a feasible option though (one of several obviously, so you aren't forced to take it). If you select it, it will disband all your remaining cities or turn them barbarian with 1 pop (so you can't immediately reconquer them as they will auto-raze) while keeping all their original buildings. It will give you settlers based on your existing population with the starting settler promo and some military units with the mobility promo so they can protect the settlers during the migration and move to a new area quite quickly. The idea is that Acheron would spawn quite early, basically about the same time the AI generally founds its second city, so there would still be plenty of land left for you to move to and the event wouldn't give you 10 settlers as your population wouldn't be very high yet.

 

[Neomega]

You want Acheron to basically destroy someone's new game. I mean, would you continue to play after Acheron came by and ruined everything you had just spent the last hour working on? Let's be realistic, you wouldn't.

Acheron is a big nuisance already if he spawns in your backyard, he basically halts all expansion in that direction.

 

[Go Boks]

You want Acheron to basically destroy someone's new game.

Yes. I thought I made that obvious.

I have seen Orthus and Samhain destroy civs early, including my own. This is not uncommon in FfH. At least this system would be different in that it would give you the option to leave and found a new empire elsewhere.

Maybe another option could be stay and pay a tribute to Acheron (-X gold per turn) and he leaves you alone and randomly attacks other nearby civs instead.

A third option could be stay put and deal with Acheron, but a Grigori-style adventurer is born with a free dragon-slaying promotion. Eventually he grows up to be capable of taking down Acheron.

 

[hegemonkhan]

in older versions of FFH2, the red dragon (acheron) actually DID move around. but it caused to many problems (like blaze all the trees and kill civs) and was changed to stay put.
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and if u want a challenge, try to kill him BEFORE u out-tech him with more advanced units.

 

[rusty217]

Well, Acheron was made held in the first place to prevent that kind of thing from happening...

 

[WarKirby]

How about just a less restrictive version of held.,

He could still move, but can't go beyond a certain radius (6-8 tiles maybe) away from his home city.

And give him back the ability to spit fireballs like other dragons.

 

[Go Boks]

in older versions of FFH2, the red dragon (acheron) actually DID move around.

Yeah, I miss that.

If Kael et al. could give him special AI not to conquer cities, that would fix the problem much better than holding him IMO.

In fact, I don't even think he needs special AI. Give him a promotion after he conquers his first city that gives him -500% city attack or something similar and the AI will probably not attack a city with him due to the low odds of success. He will just bombard cities with fireballs instead and go after your units in the field.

 

[Brugarin]

Maybe if the city he resides in gets a significant production boost, thus sending hordes of raging barbarians to pillage in the dragon's name. that would be cool. I mean the great commander spawns in his city anywho, so this would make sense. It would feel like a mini barbarian civ.

 

[Love]

The city he resides in will become awesome because of the culture and stuff, its that city that is building the great lighthouse, triggering barbarian golden age and such.

 

[Neomega]

He builds up a barbarian horde that doesn't move, with enchanted blades. Boo. It would be nice to see him lay a fireball smackdown on those AI stacks that build up, and then send out his warriors to kill a bunch of them.

I would like him to throw fireballs again, and it would be cool if he could move within barbarian cultural borders, perhaps even Embers or Doviello borders as well.

 

[Go Boks]

BTW, if the fireballs igniting continents thing is a problem, wouldn't it be better to just not allow fireballs to set forests on fire?

Either that, or change the forest fire mechanic so that it can't spread indefinitely. Realistically, real forest fires, no matter how big, eventually burn themselves out without human intervention, even if there is plenty of forest left to burn.

There is this thing called rain. Maybe you guys have heard of it?

 

[Keyeth]

I propose that we not change an unbroken game mechanic to suit the chaotic neutrals out there.

Playing the realism card in a dark fantasy mod is a little silly don't you think? I mean.. It's a dragon spitting fireballs, and you're talking about real forest fires being put out by rain? I don't think a lot of them are started by fire-breathing dragons.

If you wanted to make the fires not burn indefinitely, you wouldn't need a real world mechanic to back it up, you'd just need a good gameplay/functionality reason. Gameplay/functionality trumps all.

 

[Sid_Unbreakable]

I've had the same thought about Acheron in the past, but then I remembered ho strong he is and how likely the AI would be to exploit that... SO I then changed my mind and decided that a held Acheron was a better idea.

 

[Neomega]

BTW, if the fireballs igniting continents thing is a problem, wouldn't it be better to just not allow fireballs to set forests on fire?

Either that, or change the forest fire mechanic so that it can't spread indefinitely. Realistically, real forest fires, no matter how big, eventually burn themselves out without human intervention, even if there is plenty of forest left to burn.

There is this thing called rain. Maybe you guys have heard of it?

I played a game where acheron landed int he middle of a jungle right next to me. It was awesome. The jungles burned, left burned forest, which turned to new forest, which turned to forest, which burned down again, the whole game, everything was burning.

 

[Emptiness]

He doesn't even ignite the continent anymore, as he doesn't chuck fireballs at passing units.

He does, however, periodically breath fire - which does ignite the surrounding area. I'm playing a game as the Ljosalfar and he was built in a city in the middle of my available expansion area. I'm confined to the edges thanks to him, and he's sending out waves of fires that burn all of my forests. I'm only now starting to get things under control, as I finally have improvements I can build to block the flames.

I have seen Orthus and Samhain destroy civs early, including my own. This is not uncommon in FfH. At least this system would be different in that it would give you the option to leave and found a new empire elsewhere.

Leaving isn't always possible. To use my game as an example again, there was one exit from my starting area. The Luchuirp blocked it with their starting city. I did research Cartography early, so I could have gotten open borders with them and moved to the far side, however the Luchuirp area was very restricted. They were at the center of a land T, with the Calabim down one end and the Hippus down the other. Not really a good idea, considering my empire would then be about 100 turns (marathon) behind whichever aggressive warmonger next to which I decided to settle.

As for Orthus and Samhain, yeah, they can wreck a civ, but they can also be survived. Many games Orthus is killed before he does any serious damage - even when he goes after an AI. A strength 19 dragon with FEAR, however, is not something with which a starting civ can cope. You might as well add an event: "Your empire collapses into a massive fissure. You lose!".

Right now Acheron is annoying, but I don't disable him because he generally doesn't ruin games (the one I'm playing now is the closest I've seen him come so far). Implement these suggestions and I'll be forced to turn him off. I don't have time to waste on games that are lost to an unattackable dragon rampaging through my empire before I can even build a strength 4 unit. And you can forget about him in multiplayer games, too. I think most people would not want to win a game just because the other guy got the dragon.

You want Acheron to basically destroy someone's new game.

Yes. I thought I made that obvious.

. . .

 

[Go Boks]

I propose that we not change an unbroken game mechanic to suit the chaotic neutrals out there.

Great idea. Meanwhile, Acheron is broken and we could use a discussion to generate ideas on how to fix him. If you don't want to participate, you don't have to.

Playing the realism card in a dark fantasy mod is a little silly don't you think? I mean.. It's a dragon spitting fireballs, and you're talking about real forest fires being put out by rain? I don't think a lot of them are started by fire-breathing dragons.

Playing the asinine argument card in an online forum is a little silly, don't you think?

If you wanted to make the fires not burn indefinitely, you wouldn't need a real world mechanic to back it up, you'd just need a good gameplay/functionality reason. Gameplay/functionality trumps all.

I agree. Having a flaming continent can not only slow your machine to a crawl, it doesn't make for the best gameplay. Therefore, we have both a gameplay and a functionality issue here.

 

[Mesix]

I think that it would be enough if his city would spawn units that go out and attack. Something better than warriors (or maybe give them a promotion of some kind from Archeron that makes them tougher). Like the op said, the Dragon Hoard city justs sits there untill someone ponies up a decent stack to take him out mid way through the game. If the city were more of a nusance than players would be more acitve in taking it out and get more annoyed when it popps up nearby.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What would you think of making the Dragon's Hoard buildable by anyone (oh, and gives Mithril again), but making Acheron show up and steal the city from whoever has his treasure? And then maybe also making it so that he is only held so long as he is in the city with the treasure, so if someone steals it he will go on a rampage until he gets it back?

 

[Go Boks]

He does, however, periodically breath fire - which does ignite the surrounding area. I'm playing a game as the Ljosalfar and he was built in a city in the middle of my available expansion area. I'm confined to the edges thanks to him, and he's sending out waves of fires that burn all of my forests. I'm only now starting to get things under control, as I finally have improvements I can build to block the flames.

I had a game like that too under the last vanilla version (I only recently got BtS, so I skipped right from the last vanilla version to .40). It was with Ljos in a jungle start too. Super convenient in the end as I let Acheron burn down all my jungles for me and got water adepts to keep fires out of my borders after that.

Leaving isn't always possible...

Hence the need for a pay tribute to the dragon option and a resist the dragon option.

As for Orthus and Samhain, yeah, they can wreck a civ, but they can also be survived...

As can this. You may want to reread the thread, as it looks like you missed the part where I said Acheron should only be able to take one city. You would be guaranteed to survive Acheron, unlike Orthus or Samhain.

A strength 29 dragon with FEAR, however, is not something with which a starting civ can cope.

Yeah, I agree. Thank god he only has 19 strength.

You might as well add an event: "Your empire collapses into a massive fissure. You lose!".

Yeah, you make a good point. We should probably lobby to have Kael take anything challenging, unbalancing or interesting out of the mod. Magic should definitely be taken out of the game completely, because the AI could walk into my borders and pillar of fire the bejesus out of me, and that just isn't fair.

Right now Acheron is annoying, but I don't disable him because he generally doesn't ruin games (the one I'm playing now is the closest I've seen him come so far). Implement these suggestions and I'll be forced to turn him off.

Yeah, god forbid you turn off a feature you don't like. Those toggles are just there for show.

I don't have time to waste on games that are lost to an unattackable dragon rampaging through my empire before I can even build a strength 4 unit. And you can forget about him in multiplayer games, too. I think most people would not want to win a game just because the other guy got the dragon.

I don't have time to waste on games of civ that I might lose either. Kael, can you please turn off all difficultly levels other than Chieftain, and make sure I always get the best starting spot for my civ please? Also, just to be safe, can you give me a world spell that kills all AI units and makes them unable to build more for 100 turns?

 

[Neomega]

What would you think of making the Dragon's Hoard buildable by anyone (oh, and gives Mithril again), but making Acheron show up and steal the city from whoever has his treasure? And then maybe also making it so that he is only held so long as he is in the city with the treasure, so if someone steals it he will go on a rampage until he gets it back?

interesting... but make him powerful enough to lay waste to mithril axemen... or make him immune to mithril.. or perhaps even have a 20% bonus against mithril weapons.. not steal the city, btu definitely make him spawn where ever, give him flying, and have him beeline for his hoard... and do not let the hoard be moveable. (or else he would never catch it)... oh yeah, give him march, too.