Acheron more like Smaug

[Go Boks]

What would you think of making the Dragon's Hoard buildable by anyone (oh, and gives Mithril again), but making Acheron show up and steal the city from whoever has his treasure? And then maybe also making it so that he is only held so long as he is in the city with the treasure, so if someone steals it he will go on a rampage until he gets it back?

That would be an interesting mechanic too. Maybe enable invisible units to walk into his city and steal the hoard from right underneath him. Then he is released in 5 turns to enable you to get away with it before he comes after you.

BTW, I would definitely be behind it providing Mithril. I have had more than one game where I have not had a single copper, iron or mithril resources anywhere near my borders, and none appearing despite mines on every hill and getting an earth mana resource to boot (but I got the Dragon's Hoard, as the AI doesn't seem capable of getting it, at least before I can without really trying).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

interesting... but make him powerful enough to lay waste to mithril axemen... or make him immune to mithril.. or perhaps even have a 20% bonus against mithril weapons.. not steal the city, btu definitely make him spawn where ever, give him flying, and have him beeline for his hoard... and do not let the hoard be moveable. (or else he would never catch it)... oh yeah, give him march, too.

That would be a lot harder to code though. I don't know of any way to force Acheron to attack the right city, but spawning him in the city (thus forcing out the city defenders and stealing the city, unless the city's owner is at peace with the barbarians in which case the Dragon just sits there defending the city) is easy.

(In fact, I already did it in an old FF based version of my mod.

Since it was FF based, the free Mithril resource would not allow Mithril Weapons until the proper tech is researched.

In my versions, all dragons start with Flying and the Dragon racial promotion provides Blitz and March, and instead of having the Breath Fire spell (which just seems so wrong for Drifa) they can act as (non-self-destructing) Nuclear weapons, letting them attach at range and causing the whole world to shake when they do so. Being considered Nukes means that they can't be built until the proper ritual (the equivalent of the Manhattan Project) is completed. I actually consider that quite appropriate for the other dragons, but Acheron should show up earlier, which is what motivated me to making the dragon be created in python upon the building on his hoard instead of having the hoard created in python upon the creation of the dragon. Their base strength's are also all raised, but the Dragon Slaying promotion is boosted too.)


Invisible recon units following CoE can already steal the hoard, at least if they can get into the city without attacking and dieing. It is easiest for Barbarian trait civs. I think that a normal invisible unit can enter enemy cities after they have already attacked and thus are not able to attack again. It might be nice to add a CoE Thief UU that is basically an earlier Shadow without the ability to attack.

 

[Neomega]

That would be a lot harder to code though. I don't know of any way to force Acheron to attack the right city, but spawning him in the city (thus forcing out the city defenders and stealing the city, unless the city's owner is at peace with the barbarians in which case the Dragon just sits there defending the city) is easy.

In Civ II things like having units head for a city were modable for scenarios, so I must assume it is not an incredibly difficult ability.

 

[the_fish]

What would you think of making the Dragon's Hoard buildable by anyone (oh, and gives Mithril again), but making Acheron show up and steal the city from whoever has his treasure? And then maybe also making it so that he is only held so long as he is in the city with the treasure, so if someone steals it he will go on a rampage until he gets it back?

I don't like it. Why would you be able to build a dragon's hoard? "hey guys, lets spend several years heaping together all of that sparkly stuff we've got and see what happens!" ... (time passes) ... "aghh! why is everything on fire!? curse my inquisitive disposition!"

I like the idea of a rampaging dragon, but I don't think it would work (even if you forbade him from entering cultural borders like giants). He has to protect his treasure. Throwing fireballs is enough.

I liked the burning forest mechanic from previous versions of FfH, but the continent-wide infernos were both annoying and "unrealistic"*. Acheron causing huge fires is just the same as an adept with Blaze causing huge fires - removing his ability to throw fire is not tackling the real issue, which is the fire spread rate.

(*by this I mean "inconsistent with the information provided about the world". This is what "realism" means in the context of fiction)

 

[MormegilGr]

The closest to Smaug with CIV mechanics I can think of is the bombard ability. Let dragons fly and rain fire upon nearby units and terrain improvements. It's not that different, really.

The nuke ability MC suggested seems good too.

 

[Blackmantle]

Well lets just say you don't want Kael much to read this suggestion. I won't go into detail. lets just say Acheron gave him some serious stomachache.

Best move this Thread to the modmods & scenarioes subform? Perhaps Woodelf can do so? Better hurry?


more on toppic: He did so some time in the vanilla age of FFH2 and it was huge fun (imo ). No further changes to his AI/script needed. You just need to unchain him of his bonds and he is ready to rumble and has been tested and found good/bad more than once before.

Barbatos (the awesome unique Lich formerly guarding the broken sepulcher before explorable lairs by marnok got implemented into main FFH2 and he subsequently got removed) also for a brief time used Death 3 to cast Lichdom (thus turning him from an powerful immobile casting platform to an generic if heroic and extremely powerful archmage-level 3 Caster, with twincast + Extension 1&2 + Earth 3 + Death 3 and Summoning trait going on campaign for world domination.)
and thus free himself from the bounds of his prison so he could go around for a little stroll, to kick some serious AI and player butt, and chew some bubblegum.
Clever old piece of undead apprentice of death magic, turned Archmage turned Lich and cheating death again by using Lichdom a second time ...
Sadly he run out of bubblegum shortly after, lost his demeanor because of it and Kael found out and choose to punish him with the nerf-batton for his impoliteness... (and ultimately by removing him from the mod for all but the rare random spawn of a powerful Lich from a lair.)

I miss these things. Oh sweet memories.
But I'm sure its easy enough to modmod both these things "back" in (and those players who like those things would sure appreciate to get their hands on something like this. While some parts of the general public might understandibly dislike it very much.). So leave our favorite team-lead his well earned peace of mind and not speak of it all that much in the main forums.

 

[Domingo]

I propose that Acheron get a sex-change and begin spawning drakes which can potentially upgrade to other dragon types (and could be tamed!).

 

[MormegilGr]

You do know it takes two for such things, do you?

 

[Blackmantle]

Well, or an Archangel who wants a powerful weapon for a godswar. (Not even sure if those things can even mate (for reproduction that is...)... Keal might clear it up. But then on second thought it might be good if he would miss this thread. Maybe MC can clear the whole thing up for us... )

 

[MagisterCultuum]

There is no reference to Dragons being able to mate/reproduce, but also nothing saying that they can't. I would tend to think they cannot, that they must be individually fashioned by a god, but the fact they are referred to with gender specific pronouns may indicate it is possible.

There are several cases when angels/demons mated, but to the best of my knowledge this was always with a mortal, never with another angel/demon. It may be that reproduction requires at least one parent be a mortal. I tend to think that Dragons are basically a monstrous form of Angel, so it is possible that they too could reproduce with humans. Of course, I imagine it is harder for a dragon than for an angel/demon to seduce a woman, and that the relative size differences might make copulation difficult. (Of course, Hyborem seems really big, and he is the exact same size as Cernunnos was when he sired children by his 3 elven wives.)

 

[Emptiness]

Yeah, you make a good point. We should probably lobby to have Kael take anything challenging, unbalancing or interesting out of the mod. Magic should definitely be taken out of the game completely, because the AI could walk into my borders and pillar of fire the bejesus out of me, and that just isn't fair.

Yeah, god forbid you turn off a feature you don't like. Those toggles are just there for show.

I don't have time to waste on games of civ that I might lose either. Kael, can you please turn off all difficultly levels other than Chieftain, and make sure I always get the best starting spot for my civ please? Also, just to be safe, can you give me a world spell that kills all AI units and makes them unable to build more for 100 turns?

Troll much?

 

[Keyeth]

Agreed with Emptiness.

Playing the asinine argument card in an online forum is a little silly, don't you think?

This doesn't even make sense. Who would 'play' the 'totally foolish argument' card? That doesn't even work from a "Yeah, why *would* you play it?" zinger perspective.

I'm under the impression that you're just severely insistent on this Acheron topic, and not willing to listen to logic to the contrary of it. Granted what I said was a little heated, but that response wasn't even cogent. Your responses thus far have been pretty demeaning and destructive.

If you really want this to get done, maybe you should be a bit more constructive and kind about it, and enlist the help of one of the many people familiar with XML and python to construct a modmod with you.

 

[Neomega]

I don't like it. Why would you be able to build a dragon's hoard? "hey guys, lets spend several years heaping together all of that sparkly stuff we've got and see what happens!" ... (time passes) ... "aghh! why is everything on fire!? curse my inquisitive disposition!"

hmm agreed. The only other options I see are find it in a dungeon, and then Acheron beelines for the hoard itself, or steal it.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I suggest trying to convince Kael to have the Acheron's Held status in an option. If someone wants to play with a loose Acheron, it will be on his head!

 

[Love]

how about only defend?

 

[Go Boks]

Troll much?

Oh, I get it. It is completely acceptable for you to crap all over my idea, but it is completely uncalled for if I respond in a playful manner?

Cool.

 

[Go Boks]

This doesn't even make sense. Who would 'play' the 'totally foolish argument' card? That doesn't even work from a "Yeah, why *would* you play it?" zinger perspective.

I'm under the impression that you're just severely insistent on this Acheron topic, and not willing to listen to logic to the contrary of it. Granted what I said was a little heated, but that response wasn't even cogent. Your responses thus far have been pretty demeaning and destructive.

If you really want this to get done, maybe you should be a bit more constructive and kind about it, and enlist the help of one of the many people familiar with XML and python to construct a modmod with you.

You should do stand up.

...and, for the record, I don't want to get anything done. I wanted to start a conversation on a forum (crazy concept, I know). Everyone except for you and Emptiness seem to understand that.

 

[Go Boks]

hmm agreed. The only other options I see are find it in a dungeon, and then Acheron beelines for the hoard itself, or steal it.

In your system, maybe you could have a Barbarian city still build the horde, but add this thief unit that can steal it. That way, you can go for the horde before you can kill Acheron, but after you think you have a shot at defending against him if he assaults one of your cities. Hell, you could even steal the horde and drop it off in someone else's city, unleashing the beast on them.

It could be a very interesting dynamic, especially if you consider a thief could go after other movable wonders, such as the Perfect Lyre and the Crown of A, or possibly even items held by units (although maybe their is a higher chance that they get caught and executed if they try to steal from a unit instead of a city).

 

[DarkxL0rd]

i think its funny how thread starters get upset if others dont see eye to eye with their ideas. the flaming begins. But seriously, who likes a game with an insta-loss event. i dont mind losing a game if i fought it out, got worn down, and beaten. "Archeon takes your city! would you like to return to the main menu?" is not something i want added to my game.

 

[Go Boks]

I think it's funny how thread starters get upset if others don't post anything constructive. Totally irrational behaviour. I mean, who expects people to actually compose a worthwhile reply. ROFLMAO!!!

But seriously, DarkxL0rd, your reading comprehension skills are phenomenal. The OP totally says Acheron should be turned into an "insta-loss" event.