[BTS] Achieving an early Deity Space victory

T198 research complete is very nice. I expected you to land around T215 but apparently you'll be a bit earlier than that, congrats!

With a good start you don't need an early UU to get rolling. HAs are extremely powerful, but even before that Axemen or even Chariots can be used. Have to select max AIs and all of course.

I don't think Deity is harder than IMM for a space victory if you play the early game right (worker steals + deny everyone metal). The better early trades make up for the extra military cost. I'll try a corps Big&Small space race someday, probably on normal speed. Problem is this kind of game would take almost 100h to complete and I don't have the motivation right now.


Btw I think there's something wrong with your game plan. You can't bulb Fusion at this point unless you already have Robotics.
 
T198 research complete is very nice. I expected you to land around T215 but apparently you'll be a bit earlier than that, congrats!

215 landing? No way! T198 finished research => T199 launch, whatever it costs.

With a good start you don't need an early UU to get rolling. HAs are extremely powerful, but even before that Axemen or even Chariots can be used. Have to select max AIs and all of course.

I don't think Deity is harder than IMM for a space victory if you play the early game right (worker steals + deny everyone metal).

All this early aggression is a huge gap in my CIV knowledge. I may occasionally go for axe or HA rush and steal one worker here and one there and that is that. Need a lot more experience with this stuff before I use it in a long and time consuming game.

Btw I think there's something wrong with your game plan. You can't bulb Fusion at this point unless you already have Robotics.

Nope, its Satellites you want to avoid, because Lasers have higher priority than Fusion.
 
215 landing? No way! T198 finished research => T199 launch, whatever it costs
What I meant is that looking at your position around T160 I expected you to be a few turns later.

Early warmongering is not very hard -- the main thing is that it leads to extremely flexible games. Thus the hardest thing to do is weighing opportunity costs, takes some practice.

I didn't realise you were teching Fusion before Satellites & Composites.
 
First I want to explain one thing about research. I do Fusion on t193 then Genetics on t196. How come partly researched Genetics takes 3 turns to research? I finish Fusion with overflow and put it along with 1 turn of research into Genetics so its nearly finished on t194.
T195 nearly finished Fascism
T196 finish Genetics with huge overflow
If Liz finished Satellites, then I can research Composites in 2 turns using overflow from Genetics. If Satellites slip to t197, then I finish Fascism with double overflow on t197 and research Composites in 1 turn. I wish I could use small worthless techs like archery to gather overflow, but unnecessary backfilling killed this option:(

Then I have ensure t191 Apollo. Building Apollo is very straightforward, just prepare overflow in the IW city. Finishing it in 3 turns will require a few more workshops.
Spoiler T188 Apollo :

Then Djenne will build Engine and Casing. Base hammer costs in the IW city are 444:hammers: and 261:hammers: respectively.
191 Complete Apollo with small overflow, at this point Djenne is producing about 120:hammers:
192 Build supermarket ~125/48 base hammers => 48:hammers:OF
193 Build nuclear plant 120+48=168/81 => 87:hammers:OF
194 Engine 87+120=207/444
195 Engine 327/444
196 Engine 443/444
197 Industrial park 120/64 => 56:hammers:OF
198 Complete Engine 120+56+443-444=175:hammers:OF
199 Complete Casing 120+175=295/261 with very comfortable 34:hammers: marging.
188Djenne.JPG


Kiev will build Thruster and Casing. Base cost for both is 334:hammers:. Thanks to 3 preserved forests Kiev will need just ~160:hammers: overflow to 1-turn Casing. Workshops and a mine on forests are already prebuilt.
Spoiler T188 Kiev :

188 Research institute is 112/120; put marine in the queue.
189 Prepare marine 72/77
190 Cossack 78/58 => 20:hammers:OF
191 Complete rsearch institute 78+20+112-120=90:hammers:OF
192 Thruster 78+90=168/334
193 Thruster 250/334
194 Thruster 332/334
195 Complete marine with 77:hammers: OF (max) and build research
198 Complete Thruster 92+77+332-334=167:hammers: OF; chop 3 forests for 90 base:hammers:.
199 Complete Casing 97+167+90=354/334
188Kiev.JPG



Kumbi Saleh is a more difficult case; it has only one forest.
Spoiler T188 Kumbi Saleh :

189 Aqueduct 76/48 => 28:hammers: OF
190 Nuclear plant 80+28=108/120
191 Research institute 180/120 => 60:hammers: OF
192 Thruster 90+60=150/334
193 Thruster 240/334
194 Thruster 333/334
195 Build bunker 95/48 => 47:hammers: OF
196 Complete nuclear plant 97+47+106-120=130 => 120:hammers: OF
197 Complete Thruster with 97+120+333-334=216:hammers: OF and build research.
198 Put Casing in the queue and chop forest.
199 Complete Casing 99+216+30=345/334.
188KumbiSaleh.JPG


I don't want to elaborate on the rest of the space ship parts, the principle is the same and nobody would read it anyway.
I have to keep an eye on a few other issues. Quite a few of my cities have problems with culture. I have move units out every turn to see whether it is close to have a chance of revolt. My land is 55.78% at the moment, well below the domination limit, but I have several newly captured cities that will come out of revolt soon.
 
Very nice game! I was expecting you should be done teching pre t200 when you got AL. In my immortal game I most likely self teched everything from that point on. And my empire was also smaller than I had preferred. Had some bad luck with AI vassalling to each other, which complicated issues. In particular Mansa capping to Peter right when I was about to peace vassal him and declare on Peter myself..

Warfare is definitely easier on immortal, but I still believe deity always has potential for faster space games, thanks to better trading opportunities. On immortal you are pretty much on your own from rennaisance era to the end. Only a strong Mansa as vassal would have any chance to help.
 
Now that I've planned everything and know that t199 launch is possible, I only need not to blow it.
I use 3 GP to prolong Golden Age. It is clear now that I'm going to waste a few turns of GA; should have started the 2GP GA earlier. And I considered using a 4GP GA:D
T190 Fiber Optics (with 2 bulbs), Refrigeration (Gandhi)

T191 Djenne completed Apollo.
T192 Nabu-rimanni (100% GS) has been born in St. Petersburg. 3543:science: towards Fusion. Liz is still promising t196 Satellites. I liberated Coventry; can't remember when I did it.
It is also time to adopt free religion. On need for pacifism any more.
Spoiler T192 :
192Bulb.JPG


This was the shortest turnset in the game, but it actually took ~4 hours because of all double- and triple-checking. I had to use workers very carefully too; turns out that 33 workers is not much after all. Why so much effort to ensure 1390 AD launch and 1490 AD landing? If you look at HOF tables, you'll see that the fastest normal speed Deity Space is 1500 AD victory by Seraiel (small map).

T193 Fusion
Pataliputra and Djenne start building Engines. The former will finish it in 6 turns, just on time for the launch. Djenne does not need to finish its Engine in 3 turns, but prepare it for chain overflow. I'm very close to finishing Genetics in 1 turn. Must not forget to check it on the end of the turn.
Spoiler T193 :

193Pataliputra.JPG

193Djenne.JPG



I forget to check research, and sure enough ...
T194 Genetics
Although I still can prepare Fascism for overflow into Composites, there is now way to get double overflow for 1-turn Composites in case Satellites are t197. That does not have to happen though. So I'm fine as long as I don't forget to check research again, because I can't 2-turn Composites without overflow.
Spoiler T194 :

194Overview.JPG



I remembered to check everything and Liz would not let me down.
T196 Fascism (~4000:science: overflow), Satellites (Liz), Ecology (Mansa)
Docking Bay in 3 turns is the most difficult part, but Moscow can do it, no problem here. I even have one forest to spare!
Spoiler T196 Moscow :
196Moscow.JPG

T198 Composites
I put Casings in production and everything seems to be fine. All the remaining parts are finished on the next turn; no chance of revolt anywhere, not even close; domination is safe 58.11/62.
Spoiler T198 Overview :
198Overview.JPG

T199 Launch!

Research instantly goes up to 5595:science: per turn.
Spoiler T199 Launch :
199Launch.JPG
 
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I rushed last turns so fast that nearly broke a 30 minutes/session rule. Just built some farms to let cities grow for extra points.
Spoiler Victory :

209Victory.JPG


Cannons proved to be incredibly efficient. Why cuirs are so popular? They are sort of fast, but cannons do the job almost as quickly. I suppose its because cannons keep moving and take one city after another. Unlike cuirassiers they never stop for healing or whatever.
Besides, Nationalism is a huge detour when you play for Space, which delays key techs by 5-7 turns, regardless whether you are going to use corporations or SP.
Spoiler Statistics :

209Stat1.JPG

209Stat2.JPG


Final score 440691 is less than Seraiel's 449810. Perhaps I could have beaten that if I spent more more time on the last turns to get more pop? Probably, not. There was power blackout about an hour after I'd finished the game, so this little laziness actually saved me from a disaster:lol:
I think next time I'll break the score record by simply landing a dozen turns earlier and not thinking too much about population.
Spoiler Score :
209Score.JPG

When preparing overflow I thought that overflow from a building/unit is limited by its base hammer cost. It is not always so. The overflow limit is the biggest of two numbers: [(city's base production)-1] and building's base hammer cost. For example, a city with 120 base :hammers: pruduction can have up to 119:hammers: overflow from, say, a worker, even though its base cost is only 29:hammers:. It does not change the whole picture but simplifies first steps of chain overflow.
It seems that WastinTime never stressed this point. Can't be sure as I haven't read everything that he's ever written. I read his guide and he does use this feature but does not explain why it is so. I should have read it before starting on parts, then I would have been aware of the possibility to use small builds for up to ~120:hammers: overflow.
 
Congrats, cool game!

I echo Pedro in that an early war can be an incredible boost, so I'd investigate in that direction next if I tried to beat this record. Darius seems like an obvious choice for leader.

The overflow-thing in the end is completely new to me, too. :wow:
 
Using chariot-based UU feels rather like cheating. May be, I will try Praets first; they are good but not so overpowered. Both Romans have nice traits too.
One important thing which is not mentioned when the advantages of early conquest are discussed is that it enables you to Lib something good for your economy instead of a military tech. I could easily Lib->Biology in this game but that would have delayed expansion.
 
Congrats on a well-played game and a very well-written writeup -- thread like these are part of what makes this forum so great.

If you're not going to play Darius or HC, Lizzy is an obvious choice for Space (unless you consider it to be "cheating" as well). Romans' traits suck compared to any FIN leader. I I think the notion of "cheating" is very subjective when it comes to HoF -- what about mapfinder-cheesing and all the near-exploits used in Wastin's game then? The rules are the same for everyone so as long as you abide by them I don't see an objective reason not to maximise your chances of "winning". Of course you're free not to feel comfortable playing the very best leaders (happened to me as well). It's just that the whole notion of "cheating" is a bit sensitive here ;)

And imo the most important thing about early conquest is that you have 50 grown cities by the time you reach AL. And you would most likely lib' Communism in a no-corp game.
 
Back the beg on t78. Now that HOF has been updated, I can reload as many times as I want. The 120:gold: beg was denied, so I ask smaller amounts: 110, then 100... Finally, 90:gold: beg is accepted! Actually, he will give me up to 99:gold:.
Edit: Power ratio is 0.4013
Spoiler Beg :

Beg90.JPG

Beg90q.JPG

 
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Congrats on a great game!

If you do another one, I'd recommend aiming for some other slot in the tables. How about trying a large map? The current #1, 1530 AD, seems to be a completely peaceful game. As is the 1525 AD Huge/normal speed #1. How hard could you beat one of those with an early rush? I'd say no shame using immortals if you tackle a large map. Their window of opportunity is quite short on deity/normal speed, it's not in anyway comparable to Quechua rushing on marathon.
 
Back the beg on t78. Now that HOF has been updated, I can reload as many times as I want. The 120:gold: beg was denied, so I ask smaller amounts: 110, then 100... Finally, 90:gold: beg is accepted! Actually, he will give me up to 99:gold:.
Edit: Power ratio is 0.4013

Thanks Anysense!
Your additional information is a big help for me trying to figure out if my begging formula has a fatal flaw in it.

Mansa's Soldier count was 63,000/0.4013 = 157,000 Soldiers.

I've got Begging_Ceiling being = Floor[(78-16+50) * 2 * ((63+100)/(157+100)) * 3] = 426
Gold_Beg_Ceiling would then be 426/2=213:gold:, so 212:gold: beg should have worked
Gold_Beg_Ceiling with Financial distress should be 426/3=142:gold:, so 141:gold: beg should have worked.

There is still uncertainty if the Human Player or the Computer AI being in Financial distress triggers the reduced beg amount. :hmm:

Anyway, Mansa was Pleased, so there was no denial based off of being too weak.

Mansa gifted you free Masonry Turn 46 which costs the human player 135:science: on standard/deity/normal
T46 All of a sudden Mansa is feeling very generous. Thank you very much, Mansa!


Take 135:science: off the beg ceiling, and you get 426*(4/3)/2 = 284:science: beaker limit - 135:science: = 149 * (3/4) = 111:gold: beg ceiling
Or take the 213:gold: gold_beg_ceiling and subtract 135*(3/4) = 213-101.25 = 111.75 or 111:gold: beg ceiling
110:gold: beg or lower should work.

Your extra info indicates only 99:gold: was accepted :hmm:
Closer, but still needs work.
Off by 11:gold:
Maybe it has to do with how Deity AI values techs vs. how humans value them?

I'll build a mockup of Deity Mansa, know him for 62 turns, world builder enough troops to get a 0.4013 power ratio, activate land target, and test to see if I really can beg 212:gold:
That will at least test out the main begging formula.
Should take 10 minutes.

**Edit**
The test game recreation confirmed the begging formula still works.

Met Mansa on T16.
Moved forward to T78.
Got the Soldier count to match exactly. (0.4013 power ratio)
Made sure Land Target was activated.

Begged Mansa for 212:gold: on T78. Accepted
Begged Mansa for 213:gold: on T78 after reloading the game. Denied
Spoiler :







Attached the test game in case anyone wanted to play with it.

The Masonry gift really messed the calculations up!
At least I know free tech gifts for sure affect the running beg amount total now.
I can't yet understand why the max beg became 99:gold: and not 110:gold:?! :confused:
Masonry must be valued differently when gifted than when it is purely begged by the human.

**Edit 2**
New Test.
Begged Mansa 87:gold: + Masonry. Accepted
Begged Mansa 88:gold: + Masonry. Denied

That helps narrow it down a bit.
Mansa can trade monopoly techs which are valued more than 100% of what a tech is usually worth.
In this case Mansa wanted 212-87 = 125:gold: for the Masonry tech which costs the human 135:science:. :hmm:

Let's see what happens when 1 AI besides Mansa knows Masonry.
It should reduce the cost?

Mansa + 1AI have Masonry.
Begged Mansa 92:gold: + Masonry. Accepted
Begged Mansa 93:gold: + Masonry. Denied

Up it by 1 AI
Mansa + 2AI have Masonry
Begged Mansa 97:gold: + Masonry. Accepted
Begged Mansa 98:gold: + Masonry. Denied

Up it by 1AI again
Mansa + 3AI have Masonry
Begged Mansa 102:gold: + Masonry. Accepted
Begged Mansa 103:gold: + Masonry. Denied

Ok, that is a bit weird.
It skipped straight over 99:gold: :hmm:

Did the original game have 6 opponents or more?
Ah I see.
The test game has 6AI and the real game has 7AI.

That means in the real game, the discount for each AI knowing a tech is a bit lower.

In conclusion, I think Mansa gifted you Masonry on Turn 46 when 2 or more likely 3 other AI had it, and it caused your maximum beg amount on T78 to be 99:gold: instead of the expected 212:gold:

I need to find that post where a guy was getting different amounts in the trade screen when the AI proposed something and when he asked the AI to reconsider.
Something about how AI's value things differently.
 

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Great work, Kaitzilla:goodjob: I was wondering why such odd value for Masonry, but could not come up with a rational explanation for that. Glad I could help to make some of the game mechanics a bit clearer.
As I've recently learned, when you end turn T and an AI meets you with a scout or other unit, it means that you know that AI from turn T, not turn T+1. Apparently I've known Mansa since turn 15 in this game, which adds 2:gold: to max beg, making it 214:gold:. Then the value of the gift is 214-99=115:gold:, if I got it right.
Spoiler Meeting Mansa :
Civ4ScreenShot0038.JPG

The turn 78 save is included in submission, you may examine it yourself.
 
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Why do
T111 First major event, 'Guns Not Butter':banana:
This is one of the more useful events. I must train 8 muskets and if I have Taj Mahal when the task is accomplished I'll be able to trigger Golden Age. Extra 12-turn GA is very handy and virtually free, considering that I want Taj for another GA and some muskets to make company for cannons as well. The trouble is that the quest can be done by an AI and I had no plans for early Nationalism. Perhaps, I will make my first vassal research it.
There is a list of random events with descriptions https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/random-events-list.236727/
Spoiler T111 Guns Not Butter :

I'm supposed to start whipping forges where possible and prewhipping units and barracks, but as I messed GP production and got a bit unlucky with a Great Artist, I have to stay in caste for much longer. Theatres and Colosseums are all about drafting and aren't going to be much use because I discarded this option and settled on Lib->Steel.
Drafting is very cheap in terms of food, i.e. you get a 110:hammers: worth unit for just 1 unit of population. But it creates a lot more:mad: than whipping. This problem is solved by theatres and colosseums. They both have base +1:) and provide more :) with culture slider. At 20%:culture: theatre becomes +3:) and colosseum +2:), enough to draft twice everywhere. Combined with whipping it enables you to quickly produce huge numbers of your best units. The cost of dropping the slider isn't as big as it may seem. Assuming that at this point your bpt is around 300, you'll only lose 60bpt for first 10 turns, 30bpt for next 10 turns, when some of the drafting anger fades. Even less than that because your cities will be fairly small due to all whipping and drafting. Creative makes this tactic more attractive by halving the cost of theatres and colosseum; and makes them very convenient for whip overflow, particularly colosseum with 40 base :hammers: cost.

T113 First AP election (Mansa built the Apostolic Palace). There is no danger in it yet, because nobody is friendly towards Mansa. Pericles may become friendly but he is eligible too.
T116 Another GS has been born in Novgorod.
T118 Chemistry. Michaelangelo has been born in Moscow:cry:
Can't complain about bad luck though. Not after Guns Not Butter.
Willem declaed war on Mansa. That's convenient; I can either backstab Mansa or attack Liz without begging from him.
I finished Chemistry with massive overflow and thats very convenient too, Liberalism will be finished with this overflow while I'm switching to slavery.
Spoiler T118 :
why dont u just give and retake cities?
 
Why do

why dont u just give and retake cities?

Because it bears risk of losing buildings. It makes sense when, for example, you capture a size 5 city with only aquaduct or something just as worthless and whip it to the ground, building Praetorians or whatever is your preferred unit. Like everything else it depends on the circumstances. Clearly a size 1 city without even granary is a bit of a burden before Currency, but since I was talking about drafting - which is available from size 6 on - gifting and retaking was not an option.
 
Because it bears risk of losing buildings. It makes sense when, for example, you capture a size 5 city with only aquaduct or something just as worthless and whip it to the ground, building Praetorians or whatever is your preferred unit. Like everything else it depends on the circumstances. Clearly a size 1 city without even granary is a bit of a burden before Currency, but since I was talking about drafting - which is available from size 6 on - gifting and retaking was not an option.
Wait hold on if you have 75% of the city culture then you don’t lose any buildings right
 
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