AchillesZero's LoR Add-on

achilleszero · Aug 24, 2009

This will be a brainstorming thread for my add-on to LoR. As this will be my first add-on, I will try to keep things simple (especially since I havent even begun to learn python). Work wont actually start on it till LoR is officially released, but now would be a good time to get ideas to flesh it out and to see the feasibility of certain things I want to do. It will focus mainly on units. Mostly a whole slew of UU's and a few new Legends. There will also be a couple of new civs and buildings. I will try to leave as much of the original content in LoR intact, but there will be some instances where things will be changed to suite the addition of the new stuff. Even though it will add a lot of stuff, I still want to keep the same feel of LoR and its expansion pack feel. First up is the UU's. I am aiming for all civs to have atleast 2 UU's.

NEW UNIQUE UNITS:

Spoiler :

Civs that I still need ideas for a 2nd UU for are:

Spoiler :

Civs that already have 2 or more, but I would like to have another for:

Spoiler :

Unit classes that I need ideas for:

Spoiler :

These unit abilities listed above are just cursory ideas. Have only tested a few of them. Ideas as well as suggestions for abilities are more than welcome. The more unique the better. I realize that every UU cant be a winner but I would perfer genuinely unique ideas without being overpowered. Also with naming would like to have actual names instead of made up ones like in some other mods, or ones that just slap a descriptor on the front of a weapon name but will take what I can get.

NEW POSSIBLE LEGENDS:

Spoiler :

NEW POSSIBLE CIVS:

Spoiler :

I want to add 1 to 3 more civs, suggestion welcome. With the civs listed I will require that it will need 2 UUs to be included so Mexico and Hittite will need ideas for inclusion. Was also thinking about including Troy as a civ just for fun, but complete lack of units makes it unlikely. Even a small set of civ specific units will make a civ more likely for inclusion. With the addition of these new civs I will also need to add 2 more Traits. Most likely Strategic will be one, so then I will need a non-military trait as well. A handful of new Leaders for existing Civs will be included but they are not the main focus of this.

NEW BUILDINGS:

Spoiler :

NEW WONDER:

Spoiler :

As far as UBs go, I dont have a single one. I would like to give a 2nd UB to civs that have 'weaker' or less militarily focused UU's. So not all civs will need or get a 2nd UB.

So thats it for now on the things that will most likely make it in. Everything after this is far from set in stone. Many of the following are just ideas and may not even be good ones. Also some may not even be possible or easily to implement.

OFF THE WALL IDEAS:

Spoiler :

So what I need from everyone is:
1) Ideas for UU's.
2) Ideas for UB's
3) Ideas for Legends
4) Input on if some of the sketchier things that Ive listed (such as the Templar, the Heros Tomb, Revolutionaries). Are they bad/good ideas. Are they possible. And where would I start on some of them.

achilleszero · Aug 24, 2009

Lean · Aug 24, 2009

Hmm...For the English, maybe an Armor UU? Say, the Mark IV or the Mark VIII? Maybe
21 :strength:

1

+25% Attack Vs. Machine Gun and +25% Attack Vs. Armor? I dunno, I'm new at this whole UU stuff, but I'm more than willing to help you wth ideas.

Shadowhal · Aug 25, 2009

iirc austria had some advantage in cannon forging technology. maybe that could be incorporated. either a stronger bombard or a ship could get a range bonus. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumhart_von_Steyr;

were there not a lot of polish fighting in other nations when it was occupied in '39? like fighter pilots and legionaries. maybe a UU could come from here. though it might make more sense for the host nation to have them as a UU.

Ambassador · Aug 25, 2009

Spanish UU:
Why not change the Spanish normal pikemen to Spanish tercio? They were really famous in the 16th century and quite impressive. Maybe add one or two drill promotions...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio

Japanese UU: Kamikaze-fighter?

Austrian UU: A special spy, with lower costs for missions?

French: French knights?

Carthage: Something having to do with navy - a faster galley, or amphibic promotions for their axemen?

Egypt: the Mamluk, could be an altered maceman.

Concerning the Knight's Templar: In Civ3 there was a special building for generating Templars every few rounds. Maybe in your Modcomp, if you have the state religion as the Apostolic palace, you can build a proto-corporation, which generates Templars instead of money or culture. Of course, the builder of the headquarter gets money from all buildings. The Building gets obsolete in later Renaissance times (with Liberalism).

JohnMK · Aug 25, 2009

It's nice to be able to quickly glance (well, hover mouse over) at a stack of enemy units and know from the unit name (Axeman, Spearman, Swordsman, etc.) exactly what types of capabilities you're facing. Promotions are usually quickly grasped. Unique units, however, complicate things a bit, which is fine to a point. I'd try to limit the number of unique units to two per country, though, and unique units that are only marginally different than the standard unit probably don't need to be in at all. Just my suggestion to avoid over-complication. I'm not sure if you do, or do not, share this philosophy -- just putting it out there as one other viewpoint you might wish to consider.

caliban02 · Aug 25, 2009

Is it possible to make units have effects on the Revolutions/IDW mod? Like, "twice as effective at quelling revolutions." Lots of Unique Units would get opened up by something like that.

- twice as effective at quelling revolutions -- would get you any kind of historical "police action" unit
- causes greater effects on the ownership of terrain (With IDW) -- would get you any "feared" warrior units

UU:
French: Exocet (replaces cruise missile) more powerful against ships.

Alsark · Aug 26, 2009

I'll begin with some comments on what you have now:

- I'm not entirely sure Germany needs yet another unique unit, but eh. I don't think it's a big deal since the Death's Head is just +1 first strike.

- For the Punic War Elephant you should clarify (as I am sure this is what you intended) that it can only go over peaks; otherwise it sounds as though it has Jesus water-walking powers.

- Isn't the Yumi Archer... a bad thing? I mean, not getting city defense bonuses is pretty huge. +1 strength and hills defense doesn't really make up for it, even if the city is on a hill.

- What do you mean exactly by unit classes you need ideas for? Like you're wanting names of historical/cultural spearmen groups and such, like the Hoplites?

- Hero's Tomb should definitely be a National Wonder.

- I am confused as to what the Flavian Ampitheater does exactly. Is it like, every turn, there is a 20% chance of it triggering? Or when you build it there's a 20% chance you gain permanent access to a vassal's UU? Anyway, I really don't like "chance", so I'd much rather see the wonder changed a bit.

Some ideas:

France - Chevalier (Knight)
Inca - Inti Warrior (Swordsman?) or Inti Slinger (Archer)
Maya - Balamob (Archer?)
Sioux - Sunka Wakan Rider (Horse Archer)
Egypt - Mamluk (could be several classes)
China - Fire Lancer or Fire Spear (Pikeman; if lancer, would have to throw the spear)
England - Avro Lancaster (Bomber)

I'll add more, but I have to get going.

Dragonxander PR · Aug 26, 2009

For the Byzantines, I suggest the Greek Fire as another UU (for more info, check the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Fire ).

About the Flavian Anfitheather, I'd assign the following properties to it:

WORLD WONDER:

- Requires Construction
- 350 :hammers:

(+100% build speed with stone)
- +2 :gp:

for engineers
- +5 :culture:

- Grants +2 xp to melee units, in all cities (not sure if this would be overpowering, especially with Vassalage). Due to that potential overpowering problem, getting it obsolete at Feudalism would make sense to me.

achilleszero · Aug 26, 2009

Lean said:
Hmm...For the English, maybe an Armor UU? Say, the Mark IV or the Mark VIII? Maybe
21 1 +25% Attack Vs. Machine Gun and +25% Attack Vs. Armor? I dunno, I'm new at this whole UU stuff, but I'm more than willing to help you wth ideas.

Was that the very first tank used in WWI? That could be a possibility. Or I could make it like the Aeroplane and when the 1st person discovers Industrialism, a MarkIV gets borne in thier capital. People seem to love free things like that, even if they arent powerful.

Shadowhal said:
iirc austria had some advantage in cannon forging technology. maybe that could be incorporated. either a stronger bombard or a ship could get a range bonus. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumhart_von_Steyr;

Thats interesting it was actually bigger than the Hungarian Canon. Dont think I can use the name though, being a specific cannon. Will have to find a different name.

Ambassador said:
Spanish UU:
Why not change the Spanish normal pikemen to Spanish tercio? They were really famous in the 16th century and quite impressive. Maybe add one or two drill promotions...

I like it. Definitely going in. Pikeman with several first strikes. Hmm, 2 first strikes or 1 FS and free Drill 1. Cant do 2 drill promos, although that is weaker at start than 2 FS, it would make them two steps away from having 3-5 FS. Easy considering ElCId is charismatic.

Ambassador said:
Austrian UU: A special spy, with lower costs for missions?

Was Austria known for its spys? Maybe shadowhal can enlighten me on this. Definitely like the idea of unconventional, non-military UU's. It could be a Missionary UU, as long as it was cool enough and balanced.

Ambassador said:
Egypt: the Mamluk, could be an altered maceman.

Alsark mentioned mamluks too. Mamluks are tricky, they could belong to a few civs. Ive thought of making them a legend. I will have to think about this one for a while.

Ambassador said:
Concerning the Knight's Templar: In Civ3 there was a special building for generating Templars every few rounds. Maybe in your Modcomp, if you have the state religion as the Apostolic palace, you can build a proto-corporation, which generates Templars instead of money or culture. Of course, the builder of the headquarter gets money from all buildings. The Building gets obsolete in later Renaissance times (with Liberalism).

Theres a building like that in several mods. King Richards Crusade by Tsentom. Its a neat wonder but I want to try to make my Legend first. If I wind up not being able to make the Templar exactly how I want to, then I will revisit this wonder.

caliban02 said:
Is it possible to make units have effects on the Revolutions/IDW mod? Like, "twice as effective at quelling revolutions." Lots of Unique Units would get opened up by something like that.

Yep its possible. Thats kind of what I was going for with the "double military happiness" for the Argentine UU. Right now the only way I can think of is you can do it through a promotion because that has a revolt suppression tag. Anything else and I will probably have to merge someones python for.

achilleszero · Aug 26, 2009

Alsark said:
- I'm not entirely sure Germany needs yet another unique unit, but eh. I don't think it's a big deal since the Death's Head is just +1 first strike.

And +1 strength. This will make Germany's 4th. Possibly 2 other civs will have 4. A 4 to 2 ratio between high UU civs and low UU civs is a better ratio than we have now (3 to 1). I am more inclined to give the "later UU civs" either very powerful or more UU's. As the game is usually decided early. Atleast its not 6 like how Wolf was apparently planning to do. Another thing Alsark, if you could either post that old text xml where you found those lost Wolf UU's or let me know if there were any you thought were really good ideas.

Alsark said:
- For the Punic War Elephant you should clarify (as I am sure this is what you intended) that it can only go over peaks; otherwise it sounds as though it has Jesus water-walking powers.

Yep thats what I was going for, it should say 'can move all terrain'. Will clean up the OP and be more specific.

Alsark said:
- Isn't the Yumi Archer... a bad thing? I mean, not getting city defense bonuses is pretty huge. +1 strength and hills defense doesn't really make up for it, even if the city is on a hill.

Well it is kind of a bad thing, but its only missing the natural +25% that the longbowman has. The idea of the unit gaining extra strength but losing an innate bonus, is that all other bonuses and promos have a larger effect on Yumi. I might have to raise it to 8 strength and then take away the hills bonus. As it is now it is slightly weaker than Longbowman, but as the promotions pile on it gets stronger. Tokugawa makes them really good. But some other idea for its ability is welcome.

Alsark said:
- What do you mean exactly by unit classes you need ideas for? Like you're wanting names of historical/cultural spearmen groups and such, like the Hoplites?

I mean those are the unit classes that have the least amount of UUs, and need some more. Instead of piling on more knights and axeman.

Alsark said:
- I am confused as to what the Flavian Ampitheater does exactly. Is it like, every turn, there is a 20% chance of it triggering? Or when you build it there's a 20% chance you gain permanent access to a vassal's UU? Anyway, I really don't like "chance", so I'd much rather see the wonder changed a bit.

Lets say that you have england as a vassal. Everytime you finish building a musketman you have a 20% chance for it to come out as a Redcoat. I also believe its 20% for every vassal. So if you had both england and ottomans your odds increase. I also forgot to mention that it boosts your vassals financially. Not sure how it works. It does need some tweaking but I like the UU part. I picked this one because there is no other wonder that does anything remotely similar, and I thought people would have fun with it. Building other civs UUs seems to be a commonly requested thing.

This is another Wonder made by tsentom. But his uses Topkapi palace for graphics. I just thought the ability fit better with the Colosseum. There is a nother Flavian Amitheater by GIR, it gives you a chance to build any UU of that class everytime you build a unit, but that seems really powerful.

Alsark said:
France - Chevalier (Knight)
Inca - Inti Warrior (Swordsman?) or Inti Slinger (Archer)
Maya - Balamob (Archer?)
Sioux - Sunka Wakan Rider (Horse Archer)
Egypt - Mamluk (could be several classes)
China - Fire Lancer or Fire Spear (Pikeman; if lancer, would have to throw the spear)
England - Avro Lancaster (Bomber)

These are all interesting. Will have to read up on some of them, especially the meso ones. The inca and maya are the hardest ones to find names for. Would have to come up with better names for the chinese ones.

Dragonxander PR said:
For the Byzantines, I suggest the Greek Fire as another UU (for more info, check the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Fire ).

Thats what I was going for with the Dromone. I cant call it greek fire and have it a UU of Byzantium. I have seen a greek fire promotion somewhere, if only I could make it dissapear on upgrade. I was thinking of giving some UUs special promos that only they will have access to. But the only problem is making them disappear.

Dragonxander PR said:
About the Flavian Anfitheather, I'd assign the following properties to it:

WORLD WONDER:

- Requires Construction
- 350 (+100% build speed with stone)
- +2 for engineers
- +5
- Grants +2 xp to melee units, in all cities (not sure if this would be overpowering, especially with Vassalage). Due to that potential overpowering problem, getting it obsolete at Feudalism would make sense to me.

Thats fairly powerful but too much like the vanilla pentagon. Plus I specifically picked the Flavian Ampitheater because of its abilities and that someone already made it. Now it may turn out that the vassal Uu ability isnt all that good. As it is you cant have vassals till fuedalism so there are a ton of UUs that youll never get a chance at. But Im definitely sticking with the main theme of the wonder and then boost or nerf accordingly.

Lean · Aug 26, 2009

It was one of the Tanks used, and yes, it was, in theory, THE first tank, because the Mark IV is a modified Mark I, the first tank developed. I think giving it as a free unit would be key, since, while good, one of the best in WW1, it left a lot to be desired.

Alsark · Aug 27, 2009

achilleszero said:
Well it is kind of a bad thing, but its only missing the natural +25% that the longbowman has. The idea of the unit gaining extra strength but losing an innate bonus, is that all other bonuses and promos have a larger effect on Yumi. I might have to raise it to 8 strength and then take away the hills bonus. As it is now it is slightly weaker than Longbowman, but as the promotions pile on it gets stronger. Tokugawa makes them really good. But some other idea for its ability is welcome.

Ah, I guess I was confused over what "loses city defense bonus" meant exactly. I thought it meant that it wasn't going to get the +100% some defense bonus you'd get from cities; but if you meant just taking away the base +25% then I think what you had there seems reasonable. It would only make the Yumi Archer slightly weaker on non-hill cities, but a good deal moreso on hill cities. Plus with Protective it balances out anyway.

Also, unfortunately, you won't really find much regarding the Inti Warrior or Inti Slinger. What I did in large part was use Rise of Nations as a reference. It's a good idea... to a degree. For example, if you go to this nations page and click on the Zulu, you'll see several unique spear units (one of which is the impi). If you try to Google the other two, though... the only results you get are from Rise of Nations. It almost seems like they just made something up. The Inti Warrior and slinger are along these lines - just something I think that was made up; but Inti was an Incan God (the Sun God). Something could be said that warriors would devote themselves to gods, which, while I am sure was probably true on some personal level, doesn't really seem to have much historical documentation. Therefore, I would recommend just going with straight up "Slinger", as, indeed, the Incans relied heavily on the sling and stone (even though they did know of the bow and arrow). The only problem is that I don't see how a slinger could be considered stronger than a normal archer - but that would be one of those things you just have to do for the sake of gameplay. I'd not go with a melee unit of any kind because the Incans did not have swords, which really limits your options (and probably why I think Rise of Nations made up names. Even "Quecha" is made up - that's the Incan language, not the name of a warrior. It would be like calling a unit "English".). The chasqui could also be used as a scout (I believe the UU in AoE 3), but historically they were messengers, not scouts.

Note: I also just now found a good site. It's actually for a Medieval 2 mod, but the topic creator seems to know his stuff. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64114 (On that list I'd go with the slinger/bola since the warrior is taken).

If those names are real (though I looked some up and didn't really find much) then we could use those. When I searched for Tangul I found this, which seems to be a sort of Incan dictionary: http://www.stormpages.com/beto/lang/runasimi32_nivel0_nucleos_notending_vowel_1.html This can be helpful in that you can find a word like "Archer" in Incan and just use that (not that Inca was particularly known for its archers).

As for the Maya... Balam (Balamob is plural) translates to something along the lines of "guardian of the corn field." It's more of a mythological thing, but the term could probably be twisted a little bit to mean guardians of the land in general - and thus of Maya. Maya also had primitive technology, so the balam would also likely be a slinger.

The ancient American civilizations are definitely harder since you have less to work with.

Sorry, I got into a rant.

I like that idea for the Flavian Ampitheater. It's certainly unique. I'm still not a fan of luck-based things but I think it's still a good idea the way it is implemented.

achilleszero · Aug 27, 2009

Good links, Alsark. Ive got several ideas for the maya and inca now. Atleast names. The Chachapoyas might be a good name, considering that it means 'the warriors in the clouds'. I purposefully didnt give the Hebrew a slinger or peltast because I knew I would have to resort to somesort of andean slinger. Although I might take your suggestion and have that mayan one as a slinger or maybe a javelineer.

I just realized something. Bolivar is a Inca leader. So that means I can have a Libertadores UU. Maybe a curiassier or cavalry. Even still Im not above giving the inca a 3rd. If I gave them a slinger to replace the archer, I would probably make it a 2 :strength:

with some bonus vs melee and probably some first strikes. That way they are weak against horses (which makes historical sense). Inca dont need another powerhouse that early, quechas are pretty good, atleast on small maps.

The chasqui could also be used as a scout (I believe the UU in AoE 3), but historically they were messengers, not scouts.

Well thats closer than some of the units in vanilla. I know Ive said this already somewhere in my ramblings, but UU suggestions could be for any type of unit. Ill make a warrior missionary if its cool and balanced enough (although I would prefer not a missionary as I would have to make one for each religion). Even spys, settlers,catapults, whatever.

I like that idea for the Flavian Ampitheater. It's certainly unique. I'm still not a fan of luck-based things but I think it's still a good idea the way it is implemented.

Yeah, Im not a fan of randomness either. But it would be too powerful to just give you a UU everytime. But you can look at it as you will probably get 1 UU for every 5 units you build (if your vassal has a UU of that class). We'll definitely have to work on tweaking this one. The vassal strengthing part is also interesting.

Take a look at the some of these other wonders and see if theres anything you find interesting.
Tsentoms Wonders
Most of them are obsurdly powerful or are just too out there, but there are some genuinely well thought out ones as well. Ones I found interesting: School of Confucius, FlavianAmpitheater, Topkapi Palace, Goldern Gate Bridge(mostly because it builds an bridge that spans across the ocean, graphical only but really cool)

bigfatjonny · Aug 27, 2009

Alsark said:
The ancient American civilizations are definitely harder since you have less to work with.

Why not just create non-historical modern units for the civ's that dies out early in history?
I always liked the idea of babylonian cavalry or incan infantry.

achilleszero · Aug 27, 2009

bigfatjonny said:
Why not just create non-historical modern units for the civ's that dies out early in history?
I always liked the idea of babylonian cavalry or incan infantry.

No thats not really a good idea. We already do have babylonian cavalry an inca infantry in the game but as graphics only, they dont do anything more than a normal infantry. UUs are one of the few aspects of civ that do try to copy the real world. Some of the names are made up, like the 'quecha', but for the most part they are all things that existed.

Shadowhal · Aug 27, 2009

well, there is one type of non-military UU which is the indian fast worker, so in a way it's already in. tbh, I'd use unique spies more for germany (GeStaPo) and maybe russia (KGB) (in fact, almost every major power in the last century had a notable spy section), as I cannot readily recall Austria being reknowned for its spies. the jäger was in fact a pretty good idea, but I'm slightly at a loss for other UU examples. it was and still is a prett catholic country, so something with religion could fit, but then there are many others that would probably be even better suited for that kind of unit.

another idea I had was for the bombard to be replaced by a culverin (Feldschlange). basically, those are field cannons which part of Austria apparently produced very good ones of. but since I could not really find much info on it, it remains doubtful. could like like 8 :strength:

, but with only +25% city attack. so, basically, slightly weaker than bombard in city attack, but more useful in the field. normal cannons would still be more powerful and the thing would still replace catapults and trebuchets. plus, it would be one of the few UU siege weapons in the game.

btw, I was thinking of a few combat units that require a religion in the city. sort of like knights templar, zealots and the like (better generic across religions for PC and simplicity). only problem is that without a particular role or function that is not already filled by another unit of its time it seems rather pointless.

Ambassador · Aug 27, 2009

I proposed specialized spies for Austria because Habsburg, as Austria's ruling dynasty from 1260s till 1918 wasn't so successful because of its army or great fighting capabilities (maybe except Eugen of Savoy or Wallenstein) but for its secret policies. They gained their great empire by strategic marriages: "Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria nube" (Let others wage war, you shall marry, fortunate Austria). As Marriage policies (forging whole empires together) can't be simulated in LoR, I thought espionage might be a substitute.

Shadowhal · Aug 27, 2009

well, I would not call that secrecy, but I get where you are coming from and you are right. diplomacy and marriage played a much bigger part than the military did. maybe there is some other way to reflect this. is it possible to have a spy mission that improves relations with other civs? like cost a bunch of gold or even spy points and consumes the spy, but gives you a positive modifier. ignoring balance for now, the unit could then replace the standard spy and be the only one to have that abilitiy. maybe via a special unique promotion or sth that only it has access to. but I guess that's already far too different from other civs abilities.

achilleszero · Aug 27, 2009

Shadowhal said:
well, I would not call that secrecy, but I get where you are coming from and you are right. diplomacy and marriage played a much bigger part than the military did. maybe there is some other way to reflect this. is it possible to have a spy mission that improves relations with other civs? like cost a bunch of gold or even spy points and consumes the spy, but gives you a positive modifier. ignoring balance for now, the unit could then replace the standard spy and be the only one to have that abilitiy. maybe via a special unique promotion or sth that only it has access to. but I guess that's already far too different from other civs abilities.

Thats interesting. It most likely is possible to give it those abilities. Ive seen great diplomats/statesman with relations boosting powers. Not sure how complicated making the spy do it will be. I like the overall idea. So I will be working on ways of adapting it. Probably need to figure out how the super spy promotions work, as most of thier abilities arent in the xml.

We just need a name for it, like Hapsburg emissary or something (just an example, I have no idea what to call it)

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