Actual discovery of the entire continent far too easy?

[Astat]

Okay I have bought the game this week and only played like 150 turns so far, using your mod.

But I am a veteran of the original.



Doesn't anyone feel that it's just too easy to explore the entire landmass of the new world? I mean, it took a while for the Europeans to leave the coastal areas and drive inwards, and those were all costly and dangerous expeditions back then.

In my game with the Spanish, it was more like a race to visit as many native villages as possible and cash in their massive welcome presents before other European powers could do it.

My 2 scouts explored the entire landmass and visited all native villages without ever getting into trouble. I mean, how about some native tribes being more hostile right from the beginning? Appears to me they all start with friendly relations that will only deteriorate after a long history of close borders. From what I've read, the explorers weren't always greeted nicely.

I understand there's a chance to piss of natives or outright die by visiting the wrong burial ruins, but that just wasn't enough for me.


So what do you guys think about this matter? Any creative ideas for delaying the complete mapping of the new world?

Okay this may be the wrong board since the mod is already finished, but I figured there'd be a decent community in here.

 

[Astat]

I got annoyed by the Pacifistic League of the native tribes who would back down on every confrontation, so I simply attacked them in genocidial fashion.

But I feel bad about it, those natives where the most peaceful peoples the world had ever seen.

* I sent treasure convoys through half the continent without escorts, they never got harassed by native raiders.
* Again and again, I took land from the natives without compensation. The response of the natives? They abandoned villages in the vicinity of my settlements.

Instead, they kept sending me all these presents.

Is this a normal game experience? Or do the natives usually behave more aggressively?

 

[Dale]

Are you playing French and gaining the FF's that increase native friendliness?

Try the Spanish and expand agressively.

 

[arkham4269]

I* I sent treasure convoys through half the continent without escorts, they never got harassed by native raiders.

I agree. Plus considering I live in Vancouver (America's) we get a lot of the whole Lewis & Clark info around here and it was a big deal that they made it. That a lone seasoned scout can pretty much explore a continent by himself is just weird.

Plus in Col1, you had bands of raiding Indians regardless of whether or not the local Indians like you or not. That you can run around totally unescorted is historically bunk. Pretty much everyone back in the day would take the opportunity to whack you if they felt they could get away with it. Much of 'classic' piracy was just that most mariners felt if they could take you, it was all good.

I just find it odd there aren't any 'barbarians' nor pirates.

 

[Dale]

Geeze mate, get over it. It's a game.

It's like when it takes a warrior 50 years to move 1 tile, but the same warrior only takes 1 year 2000 turns later.

 

[arkham4269]

Geeze mate, get over it. It's a game.

That is usually the excuse given so as not to deal with a potentially way to make the game more enjoyable. Obviously there are going to be problems with game play in regards to time.

However there is a big difference between moving (and being in supply) in your own territory and another traveling in the big bad world that has never been explored.

I don't think it is unreasonable to perhaps have some mechanic where a scouts a certain distance from home start taking damage and either have to rest, find a village to rest (and them perhaps go 'native') or return home.

Plus and while it is a game, for many of us, the game is more fun the more accurate it is. We're willing to accept a lot for the sake of game play but to me this is something that could be fiddled with. Besides, since this whole game is about colonization instead of the growth of civilization in a broad span of time, you'd expect a bit more detail to such things.

 

[Dale]

So what you want to do is PENALISE the player for doing a positive action? Very bad design principle IMHO. A fast way to make players pissed off with your game and leave it.

This is what made Civ3 a VERY BAD game, the fact that so many postive actions resulted in a penalty on the player.

 

[Astat]

Plus in Col1, you had bands of raiding Indians regardless of whether or not the local Indians like you or not.

So what do you say about that?


But actually, I think there's no use in starting a debate now anyway.. you've made the mod exactly the way you like it, and many other people like it just that way, want to explore the whole of America without hassle etc.
And some other people, like me, or arkham4269 for that matter, are searching for a different experience. Maybe I should try to get a discussion started on the main board.

Oh, almost forgot: No, I was playing the Spanish, not the French. I was aggressive in terms of stealing their lands and converting them to Catholicism. As I said, I was going to kill them for gold, but they handed everything over for free to the first scout who would visit them, so there wasn't really a need for that.

 

[Aerion]

AS I recall, I managed to explore a LOT of the Americas with only one or two scouts in the original Colonization. In vanilla Civ4: Col, the indians are very passive and you can easily explore the entire continent with one scout. But in the latest version, even on medium difficulty, I get my scouts killed off pretty regularly. So I guess I don't know what the beef is.

 

[Astat]

How do they get themselves killed? Do the Indians declare war on you and take them out?

 

[Aerion]

How do they get themselves killed? Do the Indians declare war on you and take them out?

Best I recall, an indian nation gets mad and declares war. Presumably because I robbed their burial grounds or something. In 1.12, the indians are a lot less passive than vanilla and even the earlier versions of Age of Discovery. Last game I played, it seemed like at least one tribe was always at war with me - usually two or three. And that was with me doing by best to make nice with them.

But, truthfully, it sounds like Civ IV: Col and even AoD II might not be the game for you. And there is nothing wrong with that. There are LOTS of very popular games otu there I can't stand. For example, I don't like RTS games at all. No reflection on those games.

But Dale put a lot of work into AoD and it's pretty much a full-blown expansion pack for the game. He's fairly happy with it and a lot of us are too. It's not exactly the way I would have done it but it's a really good mod.

If the game isn't what you want, you're welcome to mod it into what you think it should be. And I'll look forward to playing your mod.

 

[apenpaap]

I think this would be solved by having Barbarians spawn. I think it's pretty weird that they aren't included in vanilla Colonization, actually.

Another idea might be to do something like Fall From Heaven. If you explore stuff there, there is a chance some powerful barbs will spawn, or that your unit may get negative promotions or get damage etc. However, there are also very good stuff, even Great people, you can find.

 

[arkham4269]

I think this would be solved by having Barbarians spawn. I think it's pretty weird that they aren't included in vanilla Colonization, actually.

Another idea might be to do something like Fall From Heaven. If you explore stuff there, there is a chance some powerful barbs will spawn, or that your unit may get negative promotions or get damage etc. However, there are also very good stuff, even Great people, you can find.

I totally agree and as a avid FfH/Orbis player, it's sort of what I had in mind. I've play a bit now and have never had anything really bad happen while exploring. Occasionally I'll get attacked by some angry native but I've never had a unit die from it.

Considering the dangers of exploring, I'd think random events in the 'lairs' like "Bad water causes dysentery! -10% healing" sort of thing.

Plus, for those of us who like things a bit more historical, you'd think that the plague option a lot of Civ mods have would be installed. Not a "Black Death" sort of plague but more of things like smallpox that has a moderate effect on European cities but would really hurt the natives. I mean from what I've read in books like Pox American http://www.powells.com/biblio/74-9780809078219-0 something like 90% of the initial First Natives died of it and other European diseases. The whole Mississippi Mound builders died out before even being 'discovered' by Europeans.

Plus, I think that there needs to be a lot nastier health penalty being around marsh and swamps. Malaria was no joke back then and the was one of the prime reasons slaves from Africa were brought in since they weren't as affected by malaria as the Northern Europeans were.

 

[kaibayashi]

It is pretty easy to explore everywhere, tho i enjoy that part of the game. I have had scouts and warriors attacked by natives and animals and lost quite a few, tho not as many as original col. Personally I dont mind so much as there is plenty else to concentrate on without having to respawn scouts constantly, and it is a v. lucrative and competitve part of the game to lose out on. I'm pretty careful with my scouts now. I do think however that unprotected treasures should be more targeted by natives/other euros.

 

[Astat]

But, truthfully, it sounds like Civ IV: Col and even AoD II might not be the game for you. And there is nothing wrong with that. There are LOTS of very popular games otu there I can't stand. For example, I don't like RTS games at all. No reflection on those games.

If you put me in the C&C corner now, you couldn't be more wrong.
I'm the kind of guy who plays meticulous games of 'Hearts of Iron II' with some ultra mod installed. I am not playing RTS where units have health bars and all that.
What I am suggesting here is no arcade-ish element, but enhancements that would improve on the realism factor of colonization.

I have had scouts and warriors attacked by natives and animals and lost quite a few, tho not as many as original col.

You were attacked by animals? You are referring to the wild animals mod, right?

 

[Dale]

Whilst realism is all good, in a game I'm a designer who does not agree with the principle of putting a negative response to a positive player action. As a player I've always hated negative responses (such as my scout dieing in some random native ambush) to a positive action (exploration is good).

I'm a designer who focuses on positive responses to player actions.

 

[drjest2000]

Well there is a serious downside to all of that easy exploration, it takes 30 or more turns for your discovered treasures to migrate the entire continent to a coastal area where you can finally get them off the map and to Europe. I find it to my advantage to let the computer's AI have its way for about 75 turns them buy the rest of them map from the other colonies. Anything farther away from the shore than I can settle in 300 turns is meaningless anyway. Exposing the whole map simply to do it is at best a distraction from doing what is needed and at worst a waste of my time.

 

[Astat]

Dale, so you didn't like the civ4 barbarians?
And native ambushes don't have to be random if done right. Roaming native raiders can be avoided if moved with caution.

And the game offers enough positive responses to exploration as is. You get tons of gold and founding fathers. "Some" negative effects wouldn't hurt.
By the way, did you change the amount you get from visiting native villages and raiding native villages? Or are those vanilla values?

 

[kaibayashi]

If you put me in the C&C corner now, you couldn't be more wrong.
I'm the kind of guy who plays meticulous games of 'Hearts of Iron II' with some ultra mod installed. I am not playing RTS where units have health bars and all that.
What I am suggesting here is no arcade-ish element, but enhancements that would improve on the realism factor of colonization.

You were attacked by animals? You are referring to the wild animals mod, right?

Umm, no. i might be gettin confused cos i havent actually played col in ages, and was playin mp civ4 couple w/e's ago.

Whilst realism is all good, in a game I'm a designer who does not agree with the principle of putting a negative response to a positive player action. As a player I've always hated negative responses (such as my scout dieing in some random native ambush) to a positive action (exploration is good).

I'm a designer who focuses on positive responses to player actions.

Well I guess it depends on how 'postive' you consider scouting to be. I think of it as an integral part of the game, but not necessarily something especially positive. I think their should be an element of danger, so that people who are careless with their scouts may well end up losing them.

I never set my scouts on autoexplore as I like to have control over where they are going and choose quite purposefully where they go to make most efficient use of them and to reach any native villages/burial grounds etc before the other euros.

 

[TC01]

I'd advise people interested in making exploring dangerous check out this discussion thread in the Westward Ho forum, where I am taking suggestions on whether some system like blizzards, impassable terrain, or random events, or something like that should be implemented. Of course, no one's ever replied there (save one person) so I really have no clue whether it would be good to work on stuff like that. And I personally don't feel like having to dig through threads like these that are basically with the same points, in different areas of the forum, to get ideas.