Adding Packaged Tea and Peanuts to WTP? [OBSOLETE]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

one of the most requested changes in the history of RaR and now WTP was and is: "Tea"

There are some aspects to discuss considering "authenticity / immersion" with Tea:

Spoiler :

A) Tea was mainly imported from Asia (via Europe).

The earliest historically proven date of tea imports to North America is 1650 by the way.

In the age of Colonization Tea was not really produced in any considerable amounts in the New World.
Almost all considerable tea production was in Asia and Africa and the English and Dutch were afraid to loose their
monopolies by bringing the tea plants to the New World (specifically South America which was dominated by Spain and Portugal).

I once heard that the English as well as the Dutch colonies were explicitly forbidden to try to grow tea plants because the English
and Dutch were afraid of the plants being robbed by other Colonial Nations (mainly Portugal and Spain).

Also there are some misconceptions considering the "Boston Tea party".
The tea the Colonists (poorly masked as Natives) destroyed was imported from Europen and heavily taxed (thus expensive).
It was in no ways related to goods produced by the Colonies themselves. (It was originally produced in Asia as far as I know.)

B) Tea did play an important role however in the New World (especially for North America)

It was one of the most imported goods of the North American Colonies and very popular for everybody who could afford it.
It was also important for the mother land to keep the trade balance with the New World at least a little bit balanced.
Otherwise the routes from Europe to the New World would have been very inefficient because of half empty ships.

C) The Natives of South America had (and still have) "Mate Tea"

It is not the same as the Green Tea, Black Tea, Ceylon Teas or Darjeeling Tea or other teas you might know.
The plant is acutally quite different (not a bush, but a tree) but it is also cooked with hot water and has a similar stimulating effect.

D) Generally growing Tea (like the one from Asia) in Hills and Mountains of South America

As far as I know there are a few areas in Colombia that actually do grow kinds of tea plants originally from Asia today.
But the mass production of teas you buy in your store is from Asia and a bit from Arabia/Africa.

-------------

Summary:

A) Tea was an import good and not a production good of the New World
B) Other kinds of "Tea" (e.g. Mate) were known by the Natives in South America though since thousands of years
C) Still, many people believe that tea was produced in North America during the age of colonialization
D) In fact, it would generally have been possible to cultivate tea plants from Asia in South America

Old outdated concept:

Spoiler :

However,

1) I was once told: "Give the people what they believe and not what is actually historically accurate or true."
2) In a "Global Colonialization" mod-mod, tea would in fact be a very important Trade Good / Yield.
3) Other Yields we have, e.g. Coca are infact historically correct, but were not really important.
4) It was a really important import good, but the imported tea as from Asia / Africa was not really produced in the New World.
5) But "Mate Tea" in South America is historically correct as well.

---------------

Technical issues / limitations:

Well, the only problem we have is that in City Screen the space for more Yields is the 2 bottom Yield Rows is really limitted.
(But 2 more Yields might still fit.)

General Considerations:

We already have a lot of Yields and would not need more.
But Tea would not really hurt us either and can still be balanced. (see below)
It might also get a special importance for Domestic Market.

---------------

So how could we do it and limit the effort? (Especially considering graphics.)
(If community wants to have it anyways although not being 100% historically correct.)

We will have 2 Yields:

• Raw Yield: Tea Leaves
• Produced Yield: Packaged Tea

- Coca Leaves will only grow on "Swamp Hills" --> it will become relatively rare but become more expensive
- Tea Leaves will only grow on "Savanna Hills" --> moderate prices in Europe, but very high demand in Domestic Market

1. I can do all 2D graphics for Yield and Profession (Buttons, Icons and Gamefonts). [CHECK]
(Even though my graphics will not be as pretty as the ones from Schmiddie.)

--> I will create all graphics for the Yield and Profession.

2. The graphics for a Bonus Ressource "Tea" are no problem, it can be obtained from CivFanatics download. [CHECK]

--> I am pretty sure we will find something.

3. For Building: We will simply give the "Tobacco Trader House" a 2nd Profession using Multiple Professions per Building. [CHECK]
(It will be renamed "Tobacco and Tea Trader House".)

--> No new graphics for Building needed.
(Only a new "Multiple Yields" Button for the Specialbuilding since it now has 2 Yields.)

4. For Expert of Raw Yield: We will simply have the "Expert Coca Planter" become "Expert Tea and Coca Planter" [CHECK]
For Expert Produced Yield: We will simply have the "Master Tobacco Trader" become "Tea and Tobacco Trader" [CHECK]

--> No new graphics for Experts needed.

5. For Improvement: We will simply also use the "Collectors Post" [CHECK]

--> No new graphics for Improvement needed.

-------

Summary:
Do you want to have "Tea" in WTP even though it is not 100% accurate to plant / grow it in the New World?

New Concept:

A) No Production of raw Yield "Tea Leaves" and no Bonus Ressource "Tea" in the New World.
(So no changes in Professions or Buildings either.)

B) Produced Yield "Packaged Tea" that can be acquired only in Europe and sold on Domestic Market (also used for "Happiness", once it is implemented)
(It will work similar to "Luxury Goods" but more demanded by "normal indoor workers" and thus generally having a real high "Domestic Demand".)

• Maybe I will even add a small "Boston Tea Party" Python Event.

C) Some other realistic / historically correct Yield that will be used for Domestic Market as well, but also producable in Colonies.
(I will need it to have equal number of Yields to fill up the 2 goods row in City and Europe Screen to look nicely.)

- What about Peanuts? (Graphics exist in DoaNE)

• Peanuts would replace Barley for Terrain Plains
• Change for Barley balancing: would only be available on Terrain Grasland (which I really like, because it was too common)
  
• Peanuts would have a price comparable to Tobacco in Europe
• Peanuts consumed via "Domestic Market" by Native Slaves, African Slaves, Indentured Servants and Petty Criminals (considered "Food for the Poor")

Graphics:

• Graphics: Icon (for Gamefonts), Button for City Screen and Europe Screen, Profession Button and Bonus Ressource exist in DoaNE
• Peanuts could not be further refined (no Building, no InDoor-Profession)
  
• Expert: Expert Farmer (no new Graphics)
• Improvement: Farm / Large Farm (no new Graphics)
• Maybe I will even add a Founding Father to increase Peanut Production

Summary:

Generally the concept should be realistic now.

All it does is:
- Improves Balancing for Barley a bit
- Adds 2 new Yields mainly used for "Domestic Market" (1 only buyable from Europe, 1 producable in New World)
- Giving Native Slaves, African Slaves, Indentured Servants, Petty Criminals a Domestic Market Yield as well

It is however a little bit more boring considering gameplay now, because there is no production line involved.

Do you want to have it or is it too boring?
(Maybe we can even do something more interesting with Tea, than just "Domestic Market with Happiness" in the future.)

-------

Like always it is the choice to community and team.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

No.

In the original Colonization and Civ IV Colonization I play more games on the american continent than on any other map.
Tea however is a product that would belong to the other side of the world, being produced first in China and later on british plantations in India.

The Americas Gigantic Map contains only America and already plays a bit slow on my PC. Having a map that would be large enough to contain America and Asia would lose it’s focus - after all while we start playing as England we have leaders to become the US (one colonial nation). Having a map with the whole world and cities on the whole world would be better suited to recreating the british Empire than building the one rebellious colony within that Empire that later breaks free.

If Asia would be added on the map (and not just be an off-map location like Europe, Port Royale and Africa) map would either lose accuracy (if all has to fit on a gigantic map) or slow down the game (if you want an accurate map that then grows to larger than gigantic size).

The Indias is something better suited to the East India Trading Company game.

If anything Tea should only be added as a good that "Europe" sells because of the british "Tea party" event that gives the name to any of the trading embargoes if we refuse to pay taxes in the game.
Due to e.g. the Navigation Act the colonies often were restricted with whom they traded, so importing tea would be from British-India, over England for British-America, from French-India, over France for French-America etc.


"Mate tea" is in fact, no tea. Just like "herbal tea" or such is not really "tea" but an infusion with hot water and herbs.
Tea in it’s true sence is only what is created from the tea plant, creating the different forms of tea by drying, fermenting or sorting what is harvested (only the tips of the leaves, entire leaves etc.). So both shold not be mixed into one good, because then we could just as well mix Beer into Rum...


Adding more resources would need a delicate balancing. Currently the game tries to be balanced to create your colony in both north, middle and south america. Every region has resources that can be harvested and sold and all have really specific growing conditions (e.g. red pepper that appears as a bonus resource only on prairie hills as far as I remember).

 

[raystuttgart]

In the original Colonization and Civ IV Colonization I play more games on the american continent than on any other map.
Tea however is a product that would belong to the other side of the world, being produced first in China and later on british plantations in India.

That is completely true.
I wrote the same in my spoiler.

Having a map that would be large enough to contain America and Asia would lose it’s focus - ....

That is not the intention for WTP core mod, do not worry.

But people contacted me and requested that a mod-mod like that would be possible by using our DLL.
(And to make it possible I was considering to already add "Tea" for them because they would like to use the rest of the Yields as well.)

"Mate tea" is in fact, no tea. Just like "herbal tea" or such is not really "tea" but an infusion with hot water and herbs.

I know, Mate is a tree and not a tea bush.
I wrote the same in my spoiler.

Adding more resources would need a delicate balancing.

I know, but I already have a general balancing concept for this.
(Since I did the original balancing of RaR - basically still the current balancing of WTP - I know the challenges for this.)

"Tea" would basically replace "Coca" on Savannah Hils.
(Coca would occur only on "Swamp Hils", become more rare but also a bit more expensive.)

--> "Tea" would be the common Bonus Ressource on Savannah Hills
--> "Coca" would become a relatively rare Bonus Ressource on "Swamp Hills" (but get higher prices in Europe)

------------
Summary:

Considering authenticity I absolutely agree with you.
(See my Spoiler)

However, in RaR and WTP players have regularly asked for it.
Some players really do not understand why we do not have Tea as a Bonus Ressource and Yield.

Tea Leaves (as raw Yield) is a bit of "ignoring authenticity" but some people simply do not know the real facts and expect the New World to have tea.
(And I was once told by a game designer: Do not give your players what is historically true. Give them what they think is historically true.)

Packaged Tea (as produced Yield) however would make sense because it could / would be of high value for Domestic Market.
(But if we add only "Packaged Tea" some players will complain because there is no Bonus Ressource and no raw Yield to produce it, which they would simply expect.)

I am thus asking community:
Do you want to have it anyways and "bend" historical accuracy a bit - just because it would theoretically have been possible?
(I am not trying to be a teacher. I am trying to design and implement a fun game.)

For me, WTP is not necessarly a 100% accurate historical simulation. I can forgive small "bending" of history like that.
As long as community and team like it and it is fun for gameplay, everything is ok for me as well.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I would probably say no unless it has some implication other than 'money crop'.

It could perhaps be the ultimate 'happiness' item.

It could also be fun if it explored the 'illegal' aspect of it, being incredibly valuable for boosting happiness, but expensive to buy and if you attempt to cultivate it you attract the wrath of the king in some way.

You could perhaps only buy the final 'packaged tea' from Europe, but can smuggle tea leaves from Africa or Port Royale and make your own for a reduction in import costs.

In the future it could be unlocked as a farmable yield through a tech. Depending on the tech system it could be a tricky tech to acquire in some way. (Having to smuggle in viable plants, etc.)

If it is just another money crop I don't really see the point as there are plenty of money crops, everything is more or less a money crop (which is base Col game play).

 

[raystuttgart]

I would probably say no unless it has some implication other than 'money crop'.

More or less yes, it would mainly be useful to sell on Domestic Market though.
(Similar to "Luxury Goods", which give higher prices on Domestic Market than in Europe.)

It could perhaps be the ultimate 'happiness' item.
It could also be fun if it explored the 'illegal' aspect of it, being incredibly valuable for boosting happiness, but expensive to buy and if you attempt to cultivate it you attract the wrath of the king in some way.
...
In the future it could be unlocked as a farmable yield through a tech.

Before we can build features like that ontop, we would first need to have the Yields.
For now I was not planning to make the implementation too complicated though.

See guys, I understand that everybody wants to have everything right away.
But it is more like a puzzle, you place the first piece and then you see what further pieces match to it.

Summary:

We do not really need another Yield.
And yes there are historical inacurracies which we would need to accept if we implement it.

Since it was simply requested so often however, I was asking if community wants to have it or not.
I can live without it to be honest but some people simply want to have even more Yields.

Also in the future we might have features like (Happiness, Techs, Civics, ...) that can do more interesting things with those Yields.
But those are not going to be implemented in the next couple of months. They will need some time.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

If the american colonies can produce all the tea they want for domestic use, would we then have no Boston Tea Party, because taxed tea from Europe brought into a colony producing tea would have been silly?

 

[raystuttgart]

If the american colonies can produce all the tea they want for domestic use, would we then have no Boston Tea Party, because taxed tea from Europe brought into a colony producing tea would have been silly?

As I said, I am not trying to convince anybody that "growing Tea" in the New World is historically correct.
In fact it was definitely not (see my own Spoiler in the starting post).

But some people do not know what the "Boston Tea Party" really was about.
They start WTP and think "This mod has so many Yields but why is there no tea?" because they heard of the "Boston Tea Party".

See, we modders and historical freaks, we know about all of these details.
But some (or even many) WTP players do not.

We even had an issue posted about this recently in our team forum.
Also in the past of TAC and RaR, it was discussed / requested several times to add "Tea".

And I know that there are modders that still dream about "Global Colonization" (but lack our programming skills) and might one day build a mod-mod upon WTP.
It is currently not that likely though while we are still in so heavy development.

I am perfectly aware that we would be "bending" historical facts if we allow Tea to be grown in the New World.
But for me the world does not end with "bending" historical facts a little bit.

Summary:
I do not really need to have Tea in WTP but I do not mind to implement it either.
I just offer it to see what community thinks about it.
If our community does not want it, it will definitely not be implemented.

 

[OzzyKP]

I would like it as a commodity that can only be purchased in Europe. I'm against having it grown on the map like other yields.

I'd be in favor of replacing an existing yield so the double row of yields doesn't get messed up.

 

[Glak]

Tea should be in the game as a good that you can import. You should not be able to produce it. Tea, like other imports (spices, dyed cloth), should be used to produce happiness.

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok guys, I hear you.
After all, that is why I asked for your opinion.

I have been redesigning my concept.

A) No Production of raw Yield "Tea Leaves" and no Bonus Ressource "Tea" in the New World.
(So no changes in Professions or Buildings either.)

B) Produced Yield "Packaged Tea" that can be acquired only in Europe and sold on Domestic Market (also used for "Happiness", once it is implemented)
(It will work similar to "Luxury Goods" but more demanded by "normal indoor workers" and thus generally having a real high "Domestic Demand".)

• Maybe I will even add a small "Boston Tea Party" Python Event.

C) Some other realistic / historically correct Yield that will be used for Domestic Market as well, but also producable in Colonies.
(I will need it to have equal number of Yields to fill up the 2 goods row in City and Europe Screen to look nicely.)

- What about Peanuts? (Graphics exist in DoaNE)

• Peanuts would replace Barley for Terrain Plains
• Change for Barley balancing: would only be available on Terrain Grasland (which I really like, because it was too common)
  
• Peanuts would have a price comparable to Tobacco in Europe
• Peanuts consumed via "Domestic Market" by Native Slaves, African Slaves, Indentured Servants and Petty Criminals (considered "Food for the Poor")

Graphics:

• Graphics: Icon (for Gamefonts), Button for City Screen and Europe Screen, Profession Button and Bonus Ressource exist in DoaNE
• Peanuts could not be further refined (no Building, no InDoor-Profession)
  
• Expert: Expert Farmer (no new Graphics)
• Improvement: Farm / Large Farm (no new Graphics)
• Maybe I will even add a Founding Father to increase Peanut Production

Summary:

Generally the concept should be realistic now.

All it does is:
- Improves Balancing for Barley a bit
- Adds 2 new Yields mainly used for "Domestic Market" (1 only buyable from Europe, 1 producable in New World)
- Giving Native Slaves, African Slaves, Indentured Servants, Petty Criminals a Domestic Market Yield as well

It is however a little bit more boring considering gameplay now, because there is no production line involved.

Do you want to have it or is it too boring?
(Maybe we can even do something more interesting with Tea, than just "Domestic Market with Happiness" in the future.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Edit:

I also updated the starting post.
If you changed your opinion to this considering the new concept, please also update your vote in the post.

 

[devolution]

I would prefer that we do not add new yields at this time until we figure out a way to make the existing yields more interesting (I've already proposed how we could rework health and\or add a happiness mechanic to use the yields we already have).

Having said that, keeping the future of WTP (potential mod-mods included) in mind, we could look into modularizing the existing yields so that we could "easily" add more.
We'd have to look into how to graphically represent the yields (i.e. the city view) and how the AI should deal with them in a generic manner.

 

[OzzyKP]

Meh, not super interested in peanuts.

How about silk, linens or glassware as more Europe only goods?

 

[raystuttgart]

I would prefer that we do not add new yields at this time until we figure out a way to make the existing yields more interesting (I've already proposed how we could rework health and\or add a happiness mechanic to use the yields we already have).

That is ok for me as well.
Although it is a bit less effort to first add the Yields and then implement the features using them.

"Improving Health" and "Happiness" will be implemented, I am pretty sure of that.
(But they will not add any new Yields except "Yield Happiness", they will just use them.)

Having said that, keeping the future of WTP (potential mod-mods included) in mind, we could look into modularizing the existing yields so that we could "easily" add more.

Would be nice as well, althought it does not really make a difference for WTP core mod.
The effort for modularization will only help potential mod-mods that currently do not seem likely.

And honestly for adding the few more Yields, e.g. Happiness in WTP core mod the effort for modularization and the risk of introducing bugs is not worth it.
It would only be worth it, if mod-modders would actually start creating mod-mods.

We'd have to look into how to graphically represent the yields (i.e. the city view) and how the AI should deal with them in a generic manner.

Sure but for this concept, I would just have done it like always.
(Graphical representation we will always need and there is really no necessity to change it generally.)

AI improvements are always useful though.

Summary:
Ok, let us simply see what we will do in the future considering Yields and / or City Screen.
Adding more Yields does not need to be implemented right now and is not really necessary to be implemented at all.
(It is not that difficult though to implement the concept suggested above - but true, it is also not the most interesting ...)

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Ok guys, I hear you.
After all, that is why I asked for your opinion.

I have been redesigning my concept.

A) No Production of raw Yield "Tea Leaves" and no Bonus Ressource "Tea" in the New World.
(So no changes in Professions or Buildings either.)

I do not know if you could do that, but if you would want to add tea as a bonus resource for specific squares,
would it then be possible to have an option to use it or not?
e.g. "mark map as America" = no tea bonus resources/tea Yields produceable shown/no specialist tea units ingame
"just a random map to colonize that could as well be Asia" = tea bonus resources/Yields produceable shown

I am content with having "Tea" being subsumzied unter "Luxury Goods" from Europe
but I am not against adding "Tea" as a good of it’s own, that can be bought from Europe (and has be brought there before from the asian colonies).

I do not want to see tea bonus resources on games that use randomized maps of the Americas (e.g. the gigantic random Americas map)
but I am not against adding a "tea bonus resource" for modders to be used if they want to create maps of South East Asia/India/China.

I just do not want to see tea grown in America in my games, for historical reasons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tea#Global_expansion
(the first tea was shipped to Europe from Asia in the early 17th century - far after the game start in 1492, the production monopoly for the first centuries was in chinese hands - which was the reason that the british started to plant tea in India to break the chineses monopoly, as the chinese demand to sell tea only for silver siphoned off huge amounts of bullion from the british economy)[/QUOTE]

 

[Alaah]

That is ok for me as well.
Although it is a bit less effort to first add the Yields and then implement the features using them.

"Improving Health" and "Happiness" will be implemented, I am pretty sure of that.
(But they will not add any new Yields except "Yield Happiness", they will just use them.)

I want so bad that the colonist wont live alone on bread, high skilled workers demanding resources to be happy or even starting revolts would be amazing.

Anyway about tea, I would be ok if it's not another just luxury resources copy and paste. If you want realism, then I guess you would need to make another port to simulate asian colonies/East India Company and make it expensive or hard to get there like you did with piracy (only a particular ship can get there and you will get that ship in an event after X years maybe, that would prevent someone going there before the correct time).