Adjusted UA's for BNW- No New UU's

Rajjah

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I know this is slightly redundant, we have had polls about underpowered Civs,and individual threads discussing which ones have too much overlap and have had countless ideas thrown out there for new units. However realistically we need to acknowledge that old Civs are not going to get rid of thier units or buildings. The only reason France is getting such a change is because they have found another role for Foreign Legion in Freedom.
So the only real area for change in the old Civs is to alter the Unique Abilities and even this shouldn't be too dramatic. Just look at the examples of England and the Ottomans , two that changed with G&K. England simply got a small addition in the form of an extra spy, which while not really tying into thier units and previous UA was a new mechanic from the expansion. This is the most likely way they might change existing civs as it takes less work and is in less danger of upsetting valence. The ottomans swapped out thier lackluster converting of barbarian boats for every naval unit starting with prize ships. This kept the original theme of the old UA but simply made it more effective. This is the only other way changes will be made, and likely only to a certain few Civs that have depowered in light of all the changes.

So using these rules what do think will be some of the changes ( if any) Please propose your ideas!

Just as an example I'll give you my ideas for three common Civs to come up in these discussions India, Germany, and America and one that doesn't .

•India trades it's penalizing UA for one that accomplishes a similar goal and it operates with a new mechanic while also reflecting thier modern reliance on locomotives.
- Cities built on rivers provide +extra growth/reduced unhappiness %
- Domestic trade routes connected by railroads provide extra food when transferring with granary

•Germany has a highly criticized UA tied to getting lots of barbarians. Rather than add something that can be perceived as more representative of modern Germany like a production or great people bonus we should reward them for using thier UA.
- Archeology discoveries from converting barbarians or destroyed camps yield unique Germanic themed artifacts and allow for more powerful landmarks due to ancient pride.

• America's manifest destiny is all about expanding,exploring, and building outward. A few simple additions could help with this.
-Settlers do not cause growth to stop while under production
- While building tile improvements, workers do not cost maintenance

•China doesn't really need much help, simply proposing a change will probably send flak my way, but I might as well propose my idea while I'm sending in this essay. This small change will help reflect thier more defensive mindset and less aggressive war mongering.
- Remove the added benefit to great general but keep thier increased production
- Instead allow citadels to provide the benefits of a great general in the immediate tiles around it
 
I like the limitations you propose, so here go my suggestion:

•America
All land military units have +1 sight range. 50% discount when purchasing tiles. Can buy tiles belonging to another civ.

This would make America a very dangerous rival mid to late game, as they could push right into you territory and take all kind of resources, even worse if America uses some citadels. Of course it wouldnt be without diplomatic repercution with the former owner of the tiles.

It even ties nicely to their expansionistic history (which its UA is all about), and it would turn America into a very dangerous expansionistic power, rather than just the early game bonus it has right now.


•Aztecs:
Gains Culture for the empire from each enemy unit killed, doubled if near Great General.

I think its rather clear, just a way to help the Aztecs keep on producing decent amounts of culture via killing later in the game. It would give them even more synergy with the Honor tree.

•Mongolia
Pillaging improvements weakens city defenses. All mounted units have +1 Movement.

(yes its a bit of a dramatic change but I think it works better than the original)

Ok so here's the thing, going only after CS doesnt sound like something the Mongols would do, they took down the largest empires of their day after all. If you let the Mongols roam free through your contryside and pillage, your cities will fall soon after, you are forced to stop them instead of turtling behind a city. As a Mongol, it takes even more advantage of your +1 movement as you want to pillage as much as you can before attacking a city. This would make the Mongols a treat to everyone not just CS's.
 
Japan:
Instead of the bushido that isn't so useful any more, they could have something like 'All military units gain a +X% bonus per unit destroyed within the last Y turns. Max +KX%'. My first guess at balance could be 1%, 10 and 30? Alternatively it couls be 'on killing an enemy unit, any military unit gains a +30% (or so) combat bonus for 5 (or so) turns.

Not sure how historically relevant it is, but it would be just as manic as the aztec UU - maintaining the bonus means you can't put war down. Super fun to play imo. Is a pure war trait so pretty similar to the last one.

edit: btw I really like the OP's idea for Germany, especially if it gave unique great works with some cool tourism/theming or other bonus as well as unique landmarks. An increased frequency of sites off barb activity wouldn' hurt either.
 
I like the limitations you propose, so here go my suggestion:

•America
All land military units have +1 sight range. 50% discount when purchasing tiles. Can buy tiles belonging to another civ.

This would make America a very dangerous rival mid to late game, as they could push right into you territory and take all kind of resources, even worse if America uses some citadels. Of course it wouldnt be without diplomatic repercution with the former owner of the tiles.

It even ties nicely to their expansionistic history (which its UA is all about), and it would turn America into a very dangerous expansionistic power, rather than just the early game bonus it has right now.


•Aztecs:
Gains Culture for the empire from each enemy unit killed, doubled if near Great General.

I think its rather clear, just a way to help the Aztecs keep on producing decent amounts of culture via killing later in the game. It would give them even more synergy with the Honor tree.

•Mongolia
Pillaging improvements weakens city defenses. All mounted units have +1 Movement.

(yes its a bit of a dramatic change but I think it works better than the original)

Ok so here's the thing, going only after CS doesnt sound like something the Mongols would do, they took down the largest empires of their day after all. If you let the Mongols roam free through your contryside and pillage, your cities will fall soon after, you are forced to stop them instead of turtling behind a city. As a Mongol, it takes even more advantage of your +1 movement as you want to pillage as much as you can before attacking a city. This would make the Mongols a treat to everyone not just CS's.

I like these suggestions a lot, and also OP:s suggestions for India. I expecially like the idea of America being able to buy tiles from other players since it ties well into their history. I do think however that it has to have a limit at two tiles from city or something like that to make it less overpowered.
 
I'm liking both of the suggestions for American a lot. I don't think there is anything wrong with their UA, but a small boost like the ones mentioned wouldn't make it too powerful, it would be a nice addition.
 
Buying another civs tiles would be way overpowered. Plus there's not much historical precedence outside of smaller nations. If they made a mechanic like that which only applied to city states it would be fine. But it's not like the us got Mexican land without a fight or even native American land in many cases. The us taking land from a country that is an equal militarily and economically in a civ game is ridiculous
 
Buying from other civs might be too drastic, maybe if they had built that into America from the beginning and there were other mechanisms to balance that but I don't think they would change a civ that much.
I like the idea though, what if it only applied to city states? Even then it would need a few restrictions Imo.
Its kinda hard to portray manifest destiny in game, ideally I would have liked an America built around another aspect like immigration or great people, but that is what they went for so we have to work with it :-\
 
Buying tiles from other civs would make America very interesting, I think (especially imagining that the purchase price goes to the "selling" civ.) It would be a great way to goad the AI into war without getting the "warmonger" hit and really just feels appropriate for America's expansionist history (fought less via war and more by purchasing land or just taking it and daring anyone to try to stop them.)
 
Maybe make it just "may buy unimproved land tiles from other civs" to make it less overpowered.
 
Maybe make it just "may buy unimproved land tiles from other civs" to make it less overpowered.

The closest you can have cities now is four tiles apart. Because of this, along with the fact that you can only purchase up to three tiles away from any given city, you can buy up to fifteen tiles, at most from one city. You can maximize this by planting several new cities just bordering an old enemy city to smother a single city, though of course this would mean plopping three new cities right beside enemy borders meaning you were either winning because you were capable of defending your numerous newly formed small cities, or just signed your death warrant.

Saying unimproved land tiles just opens up a whole new can of worms for America. Do pillaged tiles count as unimproved tiles? The ability would likely be useless for America in either MP or high-level SP, given that players with knowledge that since America is in the game, you best focus on improving border tiles, making that stipulation moot, and that in high-level SP, the enemy AI has more worker turns to just improve everything, though given its fickle nature it might go the other way and not improve anything and you've basically just gone a step backwards in limiting it. IMO, any ability that is based on interaction with the AI, is rather gimmicky at best and prone to hit-or-miss with players. *See Sweden and The Netherlands

Most of all, limiting this ability in such a way is very gamey. It's a neat add-on ability, but what sense does having a trading post in a border tile defend it from being bought out by America? Oh, we claimed that territory, see? We put a TP on it. You can't buy the land because we built something on it! You can't buy the land and the TP. That'd make no sense!

A simpler, and more elegant solution is simply to increase the cost of buying out enemy tiles by, let's say, 10x. That would make border tiles, the tiles closest to you cost somewhere along the lines of 500 gold for the first ring (cost will vary as this will likely be a situation unique to America), ~950 for the second ring, and ~1800 range for third ring. There, you've created an interesting dynamic because, you are capable of spending gold to undermine your enemies and influence your own. By increasing the price by so much, you create a question of opportunity cost. Yes, that nearby tile is useful, but is it worth 500 gold? For some random tile? More than likely not, that gold would be put to better use buying a Crossbowman to just roll over the enemy. For a luxury/NW/strategic resource to give you an edge? Hell yes. This way, you actually feel enjoyment in using America's UA to strategically cripple your enemy, given its high relative costs, rather than just spamming it in every game, or letting that neat add-on go to waste thanks to the fickle AI.
 
Ok yeah with those restrictions I completely love this idea. Being able to buy unimproved land from city states would allow America to settle in areas that previously too crowded from the indigenous city states (>_<) And it would allow America to snatch natural wonders and undiscovered resources.
I can image a scenario where America discovers oil and notices that Monaco's unimproved desert tile has oil. *Yoink* I'm guessing there would need to be some influence hit as well.

I'm trying to decide if my other ideas should go with this one:
America
Manifest Destiny:
&#8226; Land unit sight is increased by 1
&#8226; A 50% discount on tile costs and can purchase unimproved city states tiles
&#8226;Settlers production doesn't stop growth and workers improving tiles cost 0 maintenance

*Edit*: or the above mentioned idea of exuberant costs to limit it. My original plan was to add smaller less game changing things to UA's but this one has such potential I'm not sure which I like better.
 
Personally, I always thought America's ability should remain exactly as it is but get a bonus to be able to buy tiles in a 4-tile range rather than just a 3-tile range. So you could build a city in the spot you desire and still get those 1 or 2 luxuries that are just barely out of reach and blockade parts of continents/sea early in the game.
 
Ok yeah with those restrictions I completely love this idea. Being able to buy unimproved land from city states would allow America to settle in areas that previously too crowded from the indigenous city states (>_<) And it would allow America to snatch natural wonders and undiscovered resources.
I can image a scenario where America discovers oil and notices that Monaco's unimproved desert tile has oil. *Yoink* I'm guessing there would need to be some influence hit as well.

I'm trying to decide if my other ideas should go with this one:
America
Manifest Destiny:
&#8226; Land unit sight is increased by 1
&#8226; A 50% discount on tile costs and can purchase unimproved city states tiles
&#8226;Settlers production doesn't stop growth and workers improving tiles cost 0 maintenance

The problem with that is, quite simply, to opportunities to do so are much more constrained than what you'd think. For one, you can only buy up to three tiles away. That in and of itself is a limitation of the cultural borders mechanism. Second, you did not actually do anything to neuter the UA. If anything, you've just focused the UA on neutering CS's, effectively neutering other UA's dependent on CS's. Again, to reiterate, assuming minimum distance, you can only buy 15 tiles from another city. This means that with three cities, you can effectively strangle a CS down to the one tile it holds. And given that CS's are much more peaceful compared to enemy civs as well as relatively slow to improve, especially if you bully every worker out of them, you're doing this for maximum gain. Congratulations, you've weakened both Austria, which probably needed a nerf, and Venice, which is wholly dependent on CS's for peaceful expansion. And by completely bordering a CS with just three cities, you can easily exploit the CS. Bully the CS? Sure why not? They don't even have an army to defend themselves. You want to see the other civs? Pft, stay in your box only-religious-CS-in-the-map.

Again, the solutions involving unimproved tiles and CS tiles are both gamey and easily exploitable, not to mention dependent on a fickle AI that thinks dancing its sole melee unit within range of a city is intelligent. You want to reward the player for making rational, intelligent decisions, not reward the player for making harebrained and exploitative schemes against an addle brained AI.

Also, generally most abilities have up to two parts of their UA, though addendums could be added if the theme is right, like Denmark and embarkation. Simply put, you can have at max four different UA aspects, with Venice being the standard, but at least two of them must be thematically the same. For example, Venice UA has: Cannot build Settlers or annex cities but can buy units and building in puppets, as one; two times as many trade routes, as two; and get a free Merchant of Venice, as three.

Simply put, if you stick with the above, you'll have to cut out one, maybe two aspects.
 
Personally, I always thought America's ability should remain exactly as it is but get a bonus to be able to buy tiles in a 4-tile range rather than just a 3-tile range. So you could build a city in the spot you desire and still get those 1 or 2 luxuries that are just barely out of reach and blockade parts of continents/sea early in the game.

Only if they could work that fourth tile range, as otherwise you would have no reason at all to buy the exponentially-increasing-in-cost fourth tile range.

Actually, that'd be awesome if they could work a fourth tile range. No thematic flavor whatsoever but an awesome mechanic, though given the topic of flavor, that would be better off on the Shoshone to give its UA a unique niche. The name just matches perfectly with your idea, don't you agree; The Great Expanse.
 
I understand, America's UA is already so unfocused its hard to come up with additions to it that aren't just piling on or completely changing a (vague) UA focus.

What do people think of the German or other changes though?
 
I understand, America's UA is already so unfocused its hard to come up with additions to it that aren't just piling on or completely changing a (vague) UA focus.

What do people think of the German or other changes though?

Actually America seems to be focused on early expansion and land grabbing, similar to their colonial era. With that in mind, having +1 sight, cheaper tile costs and capable of buying tiles from other civs and CS's at increased cost makes perfect sense. You get the lay of the land, and the latter two can easily work off one another.

As for Germany, one of the older suggestions for a Military-Industriocomplex UA sounds amazing. +1 :c5production: for every XP building, and a 15% combat bonus when facing multiple civs. Fits in perfectly both thematically and in niche (an efficient and well-trained army unlike the current UA which focuses on a hodge podge of cannon fodder). Would be amazing if it got in.
 
They could add something related to other parts of America. The Spy for England doesn't really fit the whole Sun Never Sets theme, unless I missed something.
 
America: Manifest Destiny: Settle production doesn't stop city growth. Workers build roads and railroads at double speed.

Arabia: Trade Caravans: Caravans travel at double speed through desert. Oil resources provide double quantity.

Byzantium: Patriarchate of Constantinople: Choose one more belief than normal when you found a religion. Build shrines and temples at double speed.

Celts: +1 Faith per city with an adjacent Forest. Bonus increases to +2 Faith in Cities with 3 or more adjacent Forest tiles.

China: Eastern Ingenuity: Discover technologies nobody has discovered 10% faster until the Renaissance. No anarchy for switching ideologies.

Egypt: Monument Builders: +20% production towards wonder construction. +5% production towards all other buildings.

Germany: German Efficiency: Land and air units are built 10% faster. Cities with factories build land and air units 15% faster.

India: Indus Valley: +1 faith from cities founded on rivers. Starting in the Industrial Era, cities on rivers grow 20% faster.

Japan: Bushido: Units can attack twice per turn at the cost of 15 HP.

Rome: Glory of Rome: Domestic trade routes provide double yield. +10% strength against barbarians.

Russia: Cold War: Horses, Iron, and Uranium provide double quantity. Other civilizations coups against your allied city states will always fail if they follow a different ideology.
 
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