Adopting policies between Tradition and Rationalism

[Athenaeum]

Say that you finish Tradition, and you have a couple more policies before the Renaissance Era.

You might have used those policies on Aesthetics because you wanted to go Tourism, Commerce for military, or Patronage because you were Siam, Sweden, Greece or another civ that synergized well with it.


Let's say that you really wanted to finish that second tree. But it's really hard to compete with Deity AI's in science if you don't go rationalism (possible but still hard) and so skipping Rationalism is out of the question.


What do you do? If you get to Renaissance with the second tree half-finished, do you finish it up then go to rationalism? Or do you Adopt Rationalism first (Humanism, Free Though and the Specialist policy because those are by far the most important) then come back to finish Aesthetic/Patronage/filler later?

 

[lemonfreshness]

Depends on how the AI are faring scientifically at the time. If I can spare a few policies in Aesthetics/Patronage/Commerce, then I would go that route until I finished one of the trees and then go right to Rationalism.

But if the AI are always ahead in tech then going for Rationalism is essential.

 

[Acken]

Rationalism first.

Scholasticism is the exception.

 

[Dushku]

or Patronage because you were Siam, Sweden, Greece or another civ that synergized well with it.

I think this is a good tree even if you don't synergize well with it. I find using gold to purchase CSs is a great way to get more culture, food, faith, happiness, deprive the AI of an ally and/or culture, etc. I've been reflecting on my recent games and realizing that I haven't given Patronage enough attention.

To answer your question, once Rationalism is available, I usually open it, take Secularism, Humanism, and Free Thought, then grab a few key ideology policies, Sovereignty, and then play it by ear. I'll finish Rationalism when the free tech would be useful. After that, I'll take whatever ideology policies I might still want depending on how the game is going and what my VC is likely to be.

After that, I've taken to going Piety, Organized Religion, and Theocracy. The faith and gold boost are quite nice even that late.

@Acken: How useful is Scholasticism? I've been thinking about focusing more on Patronage and since I'm only playing on Emperor, I'm interested in taking it ahead of Rationalism like you suggest.

 

[Acken]

It's not very good below immortal to be honest I'm affraid. A problem I also fixed in my mod using Fruitstrike idea. Instead of using a % of their science it now give X science per ally regardless of difficulty.

And also depends on the number of ally you have. You must also have already invested into Patronage. If you reach renaissance with only 1 in Patronage it isn't worth it to delay secularism for it.

 

[wayneb64]

On Immortal I usually get ahead of the AIs technology wise and I seem to rack up more policies than most, but I never finish anything but Tradition and Rationalism (eventually). I take a couple each from Piety and Patronage with maybe one or two from Commerce and/or Exploration. World's Fair really pumps up my culture mid game and I don't B-line the techs to open up Rationalism.

Happiness and Gold are often needing boosts due to my over road building and active military.

 

[CraigMak]

I would open patronage because Forbidden Palace is amazing. If coastal then exploration, if at war then commerce for the gold.

 

[docbud]

Like CraigMac said--patronage opener just for the Forbidden Palace.

 

[reddishrecue]

Rationalism could fail since it lacks happiness. Recommended for really happy civilizations.

Commerce lacks science but could get you some good ideological support if happiness is an issue.

Patronage is good for city states like henelic league.

 

[CraigMak]

Rationalism could fail since it lacks happiness. Recommended for really happy civilizations.

Commerce lacks science but could get you some good ideological support if happiness is an issue.

Patronage is good for city states like henelic league.

Rationalism is not fail. It is the optimal policy tree. However the question is what to open before renaissance....

 

[claudiupb]

It's very situational. Realistically you have 2-3 policies after finishing your starter tree, and before getting the first policy in renaissance.

At 2 policies you can get good bonuses from Piety (opener + extra faith for shrines/temples), Exploration (3 hammers for coastal cities is good if you have a lot of cities on the coast), Aesthetics (half cost for culture buildings is good if you want hermitage, and also helps with broadcast towers). Even honor may help (for Sweden for example)

At 3 policies, Patronage up to Scholasticism is a good choice, and also Commerce up to Mercantilism is a solid choice.

Of course there are various combinations, you can open multiple other trees with those SPs you get before getting to renaissance, but it all depends on what you intend to do with the tree (maybe you want to eventually finish it, or you just want some policies for it) and what you require in the game.

 

[joncnunn]

I'd ALWAYS interrupt whatever partial tree I had started right after Tradition after I was allowed into Rationalism even if there was only one policy left.
There may be a few occasions to delay the last policy of Rationalism just to get a more expensive free tech if RA partners are lacking. (Too far ahead of the AIs in which you are in good terms with)

Poland does though if they've also built Oracle have a shot at completing an entire second tree before being allowed into Rationalism.

On what I use for filler, Aesthetics is only if seeking a Cultural victory, and so in that case following Rationalism would be completed.

When I use Commerce as filler, it's not for military, it's instead for synergy between right side of Commerce tree, Spaceship procurement, and possibly Big Ben. I skip left side entirely.

When I use Patronage as filler Consulates is the goal and usually I don't ever come back to it after Rationalism has been opened. (Even if I was delaying Rationalism closer, I'd be picking a policy tenet.)

 

[Dushku]

Commerce lacks science but could get you some good ideological support if happiness is an issue.

Could you elaborate on how Commerce offers ideological support? You can get enough great works to get exotic with everybody without any policies.

 

[reddishrecue]

Could you elaborate on how Commerce offers ideological support? You can get enough great works to get exotic with everybody without any policies.

The commerce social policy finisher, protectionism, doubles luxury happiness which does add up because you get double the happiness. Protectionism is like having the same amount of luxuries that you currently have again along with the luxuries that you currently have. If you suffer from late game mass ideological unhappiness, the protectionism finisher could be useful because of this.

 

[Dushku]

The commerce social policy finisher, protectionism, doubles luxury happiness which does add up because you get double the happiness. Protectionism is like having the same amount of luxuries that you currently have again along with the luxuries that you currently have. If you suffer from late game mass ideological unhappiness, the protectionism finisher could be useful because of this.

50% by my count, and that requires a whopping 6 social policies. Instead, you could make a few great works over the course of the game (you need the culture anyways) and voila, no ideological unhappiness to combat. You can now use those 6 social policies for things other than combating a non-existent problem

https://youtu.be/HvgyqhmoRCw

 

[Acken]

Or just win before the AI even gets Ideology ^^

 

[Redaxe]

If you have a few policies to spare before the Renaissance many players would argue that Commerce has the most benefit as Mercentalism and the Big Ben give you a 40% discount on purchasing.

But the Patronage opener is pretty compelling too just for the Forbidden Palace.

Generally though once you hit the Renaissance you want to get at least 2 points in Rationalism for the opener and Secularism. Depending on how your science fares with your neighbors you can continue to invest points in Rationalism or put more points in your 2nd tree.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Patronage opener or Commerce opener if not aiming for a CV, otherwise Aesthetics

 

[Athenaeum]

Perhaps a tad off-topic, but did you guys know that if you adopt the Patronage opener with Greece and spread your religion to city-states, your influence with them degrades 0 per turn. I found that out recently and was astounded by it.

 

[Mesix]

I always take the right half of Commerce when going for a Tradition/Rationalism mix.

This is the policy choices I use for fast Science VC games. I often find that I have 1-2 policies after finishing Tradition but before reaching the Renaissance. I also find that I don't want to delay Oracle for a Rationalism policy because the AI will often build it before me in that case.

The reason I take Commerce is because I also take Freedom for my Science VC games. With Mercantilism and Big Ben, purchasing SS components (and anything else...hello Research Labs) is 40% cheaper. I find that I generally build 2-3 SS components and buy 3-4 SS components for the win.