Advice for Emperor attempt

[Rurik]

v.1.29

I want to start playing Monarch level in a way that will get me better prepared for the Emperor level. So, last night, I started a test Emperor Persia game thinking it would take 30-60 mins. to lose and I could go to bed with some idea of what I was getting into. Instead, I decimated the Zulu and Babs. and discovered I had a tech and score lead over the Egyptians by 800BC. But I was playing sloppily and not keeping track of things so I trashed that game and started this one.

[EDIT: ImageShack image deleted]

Instead of being between Zulu and Babs I'm at one end. They started trading techs sooner and more prolifically and that changed my feelings about repeating an ultra-early Immortal rush. Instead, I went for what you see here. But now I think I have a good chance to blow it or make it and I'm not sure what to do.

If anyone is willing to offer ideas I'd be glad to give any requested additional info. about this situation. I'll save the game here and hold off playing further in case there's interest in helping. Thank you.

 

[Rurik]

I think this will be a better pic...expandable.

 

[Rurik]

This is the .SAV in case anyone is interested.

 

[vmxa]

Are you trying to use those 1.5 towns as camps? If not they are too close to the capitol. I doubt you need camps on a map with so little open space, unless you plant to go all out to warmonger them.

I would rather see something like this map. The red and yellow with a red line could go either one. Actually any shuffling that give you the use of rivers and some room is ok at this level.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Same advise as alway when someone comes for advise:
-Don't build any frickin spearmen.
-Don't build any frickin temples.
-You need more workers.
-You are too slow in expanding or you quit expanding too early. You should have massively more cities and population at 630BC. Don't build military pre 1500BC, just settlers, workers and granaries in cities with food bonus.
-don't mine cows, irrigate them, even if you need to bring water to them.

 

[vmxa]

If you had Arbe moved then Pasara is fine were it is sitting. I did not look at the rest of the game, but I am sure Wacken is correct. That is almost always the case, not enough workers.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If you had Arbe moved then Pasara is fine were it is sitting. I did not look at the rest of the game, but I am sure Wacken is correct. That is almost always the case, not enough workers.

Oh, i only looked at the picture, not the file. I simply see less tiles fully improved than citizens in the cities.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Scrap the temples. In case it is happyness that you are after, well at this stage there is a simple solution. Keep your towns small. If it is the cultural borders, you can basically have the same by building more cites.

Scrap the spears, they won't win you anything. Get more workers instead. 15 workers and 0 spears instead of 1 worker and 14 spears would be a start.

 

[Rurik]

Wow, so quick with the advice, thanks. I'm kinda anxious to play this one but will continue to hold-off a day or two.

I will consider what has been said, so far. Some of it I see already; some I'll have to get comfortable with.

How things got to where they are:

Distance 3 towns:
I was going to ultra-early rush Zulu with my Immortals (that's why the dist.3 temp barracks towns) but...
- I was the first to get Iron Working but...
- all those mts. and I had to find an iron source,
- then I discovered Babs. was NW of Zulu and was concerned an ultra-early Immortal rush would benefit Babs. more than me,
- then I learned both Zulu and Babs. got Iron Working and, I think, linked to iron resources (there goes my tech/military edge) so I thought I'd let my towns stay at pop 3-4 as I re-started my aborted REX.
- I intend to Palace jump to Zimbabwe...that would take Persepolis out of the picture.

Spearmen:
- faster to build, upgrades, cheap def. unit to screen more expensive/longer build Immortals (which I thought I'd use in counter attacks...I don't play Persia much so don't know...)
- all my warriors (more of which will be built) will be upgraded to Immortals as soon as iron is linked and I'll want (cheaper than my UU) spearmen to garrison cities

Workers:
- I anticipated (still do...but later) capturing Zulu workers so didn't build any... but I think you are right, one is not enough for the 3 settlers currently under production (somehow I kept thinking I'm about to get Zulu workers)
- so far, few unimproved tiles are being worked which, to me, is the indicator I use for determining whether or not more workers are needed...but, yes, that will soon change (thanks for making the point)

Temples:
- I have recently learned (I think) the age of a culture-related city improvement impacts the amount of culture per turn it gives, that is true?
- Isn't Babs. that civ. which runs away with the culture game? I'm going by memory...civ notebook not here. Therefore, I thought I would improve my overall culture in prep for being adjacent to Babs borders
- also, I would like a quick culture push against the Zulu border NW of Susa, both to get close to Ulundi before my attack and...
- ...conclude my coming war vs Zulu without attacking those cities it has along the western coast (get them via culture flip once the Zulu capital has jumped even further away...after I take Zimbabwe and palace jump to it). If Zulu offers cities in the peace I would avoid choosing these. However, a palace jump will decrease shield production in these cities. That's why I started the Temples...but I'll rethink them.

 

[vmxa]

Rurik

"How things got to where they are:

Distance 3 towns:
I was going to ultra-early rush Zulu with my Immortals (that's why the dist.3 temp barracks towns) but..."

Rushing is not a bad thing, but I hate to do it with an early UU and get a GA, unless it is at least AWDG. Immortals cannot be built without IW and Iron hooked up, so that sort of makes early rushing moot. It is no longer all that early. If you have 2 move units and could find some 1 defender towns, great.

One move units will not be so lucky. The AI will get up some defenders by the time you can muster up a stack of Immortals.

"Spearmen:
- faster to build, upgrades, cheap def. unit to screen more expensive/longer build Immortals (which I thought I'd use in counter attacks...I don't play Persia much so don't know...)"

You do not have anyone at war with you so you do not relly need defenders yet. Better to make more workers and warriors, than spears.

"- all my warriors (more of which will be built) will be upgraded to Immortals as soon as iron is linked and I'll want (cheaper than my UU) spearmen to garrison cities"

Where are you going to get the cash for that? I know vanilla it is cheaper to upgrade, but it could still be a problem.

"Workers:
- I anticipated (still do...but later) capturing Zulu workers so didn't build any... "

First you are not going to get that many workers from anyone at this stage. They will not have a bunch and many towns will yield none for razing as they will be too small.

Second you cannot wait for them, if you could count on getting them.

"Temples:
- I have recently learned (I think) the age of a culture-related city improvement impacts the amount of culture per turn it gives, that is true?
- Isn't Babs. that civ. which runs away with the culture game?

Yes Babs are a strong culture civ, but there is no need to counter it. First it is time to start to forget about flips, except yours being flipped. I cannot recall how things were in that regard in vanilla, but as you move up culture belongs to the AI. They can afford it and you cannot.

Ok at emperor you could, but why do it. I do not mind a temple in a few top cities once they get up to a good size. No point in cranking them in asap. I really hate to see that at size 2,3,4.

I am playing sid right now and do not have a single temple with 1o cities up so far in the ealry BC's. The capitol is steady making 4 turn settlers and nothing else. It has no need for a temple as it will not be large enough for some time.

True, it will not be able to make a wonder, but I am only going to build one anyway.

The time you take to make a 60 shield temple at 5 shields or so a turn is painful. Even a chop to speed it along hurts as you have other things to do and do not need to pay up keep for temples.

The way to deal with Bab culture is eradication.

 

[Rurik]

Thanks, all, for the help. I appreciate it.

VMXA, you are being particularly helpful in that your comments seem most directed at responding to my concern about what I might want to do from this point forward. I know that type of critique takes more consideration than giving "pre-game" advice. Thanks.

 

[Rurik]

This is kind of what I had started for the first time.

 

[vmxa]

Well some things do not look all that pleasing. Pers making a settler at size 2 and no growth. I hope that is placeholder for something. Basically you usually do not want to make a settler or a worker during the GA.

I would rather have the settler not found a town in the tundra with all those plains still up for grabs.

Bapedia no road anywhere near it.
Mpondo making a spear and no barracks at this stage. The immortals with no barracks is not great, but they can promte on attacking.
Zim making a temple, it is only size 1? I know it was captured, but if you are that worried, you should have razed it. That settler could have been used for it.

You are now paying for having that early UU, with a despotic GA. That would not be all that bad, but you have few towns and even fewer mines.

I would have suggested holding them back till you build up more towns and roads with mines. Then the GA could have been more productiive and you could have had more units to really do damage.

 

[MAS]

This is kind of what I had started for the first time.

And this time I think you build the cities a bit too far appart, at least you are wasting that jucy cow there next to you capital.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The second picture actually shows the reason why building spears in order to send them along your attakers (swords, immortals) is often pointless too. The swords/immortals will soon become elite (just as the dude fortified in Zimbabwe) and be top defenders of their stack - unless you also have elite spears. But how likely is that?

 

[Rurik]

And this time I think you build the cities a bit too far appart, at least you are wasting that jucy cow there next to you capital.

Give me a break...at dist.3 they're too close...at dist.4 they're too far apart! Jeez.

 

[Rurik]

The second picture actually shows the reason why building spears in order to send them along your attakers (swords, immortals) is often pointless too. The swords/immortals will soon become elite (just as the dude fortified in Zimbabwe) and be top defenders of their stack - unless you also have elite spears. But how likely is that?

Some of us use spearmen quite efficiently and smartly.

 

[Rurik]

I tried, sincerely, to follow all of the advice and could not implement it all to success.

Maybe part of the problem was being told what I should have done after I had done it and, therefore, already at a disadvantage. Also, I think there is a disadvantage, for those giving great advice, to not understand what it is I'm seeing and why I'm making the decisions I am.

I really appreciate the help I'm getting and would like to make the most of it...while others see my trials and tribulations and benefitting from it for themselves.

If I may beg your continued indulgence, I'd like to ask for a mini quick start together from a virgin game (where the map, etc. are completely unknown). This way, perhaps, you can catch me before I get too far into a bad decision and others can see the progression of my failure or success.

[To the Moderators: I think it's okay to do this...and in this thread. But, if not, corrective action humbly accepted]

 

[Rurik]

Given this starting position I'm thinking already I'll want to palace jump (since my relative starting position is along the map edge...not a central location) and won't be able to if I settle on the cow (since I'll not be able to build a settler with zero or negative food at 1 or 2 pop, right?).

If I settle where I'm at I can forest harvest a barracks (not a granary since I don't have Pottery) after mining/roading the cow. I would have potential of an iron source if I go for Iron Working and put a dist.3-4 city both along the coast and into the hills...garrisoning these with vet archers & warriors (which will upgrade to swordsmen).

What do you all think?

 

[rysingsun]

i'd probably settle in place and produce a couple warriors to explore, then build either a granary or a settler. and in all probability once the warriors explored the hills and showed how poor my territory really was i would probably start over