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Advice for Emperor attempt

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Rurik, Jun 3, 2006.

  1. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    I think my earlier DOW for Russia's workers screwed me. I don't like re-starting a game but for this purpose (practice) I did. Even though I already know the layout and many of the other AI civs I think, on a practical production level, it shouldn't matter too much.

    I did EXACTLY as was suggested earlier. I settled BERLIN on the forest next to the nearest cow and settled LEIPZIG on a coastal forest next to the other cow. Also, I'm going straight for THE WHEEL before getting IRON WORKING since I know where the IRON RESOURCE is and it's unfair to let that improve my start. I don't know where the horses are so I'll go that route first.



    In 3050BC the Russian Scout came by and I bought POTTERY for 35g+3g/t.

    Now I can switch to building a GRANARY in each of my two cities so I can produce settlers and workers.
     
  2. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    There's KIEV again. Knowing how close MOSCOW is I think preventing a culture revolt in any city I put near the MOSCOW-KIEV culture corridor is going to be a problem, especially since I can expect Russia to complete a WONDER...probably PYRAMIDS.

    I don't think building around KIEV is going to be do-able. I'll stop the game here.

     
  3. MAS

    MAS Chieftain

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    More workers means less pop to keep happy.
    More workers mean all cities connected to Furs and Incence, 2 happyness in all cities!
    More workers means more road, means more gold per turn income, means a small hit from the lux slider does more, and faster research, and your settlers will move towards the edge of your empire with 3 tiles a turn.

    Whenever a citizen is working an unimproved tile, it is a good idea to build a worker right there!

    Kiev is annoying alright, a big setback if you are not expecting it, but I think it wil lbe doable. Remember, you'll soon overrun and wipe out Russia, but first settle the free land.
     
  4. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

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    :hmm:
    Timing...I'm not sure setting back your economy so early was worth buying pottery with 3gpt.
    You should follow Wacken's research advice and waited for better trades. You probably could've picked up all of Russia's techs by going vertical. The AI typically researches horizontally.

    You were building warriors and the worker wasn't finished with his cow so you didn't need pottery right away. Both cities were at pop 1 so there really wasn't a huge rush to chop grans till the cities grew a bit. IMO you could've waited to make that purchase or developed a pre-build in anticipation of closing a pottery deal later.
     
  5. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I have not followed this, but I looked at the image and was wondering why so many roads that do nothing?

    A worker had to walk to the furs passing over grass to road it and then walk back to the grass. 2 trns lost and nothing gained. The furs are not connect yet, but could have been.

    Road going to the mountains, why ? I know you wanted to get a roaf to some site you had your eye on. How did that work out for you? Not to mention you will take forever to road that mountain.

    Thes acts are not the bestuse of the limit workers you have. I am not fond of hurting myslef to get a site near my capitol. It is going to be mine anyway or I will loss. So no need to misuse my workers.
     
  6. MAS

    MAS Chieftain

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    you must be refering to post #56.
    Well, I agree about the way the Furs are hooked up (now that you mention it) But the road to the mountain, I guess was to city site #3, that was suppsed to be where KIEV is in that screenshot. The AI beat him to it. I think a read through the mountain range there would have been justifyed as it allows fast travel of more settlers past it. To bad about Kiev though.
     
  7. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I doubt you can justify spending that many turns roading to the moutain and then a road on it. Not when you have so much else to do.
     
  8. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    I've been thinking about the 2-3 starts which resulted in Kiev being settled next to the lake. In hindsight, settling my 2nd city along the coast is the wrong thing to do; probably in any similar situation, in which I have contact with an AI unit from a different direction.

    In this particular case the Russian Scout appears from the SE where there's visible tundra. I should assume Moscow is somewhere East since I must know there's an "Antarctic" coast nearby. Therefore, I should be settling my 2nd city due East/SE since that is in the direction of my closest rival. I should know North/NW is not likely to contain another AI rival....possible but not likely. The other thing is: The scout is scouting and discovered me. That would give AI Russia a priority to settle in my direction. I had been ignoring this.

    I read the other, more recent posts, and combined all that was said. Last night I did another re-start (trying not to make decisions based on foreknowledge) and after the Russian scout came by I prioritized settling in the "assumed" direction of Moscow to that spot next to the lake which had always been desireable as a 3rd city location. I made it my 2nd city (Leipzig) location.

    After that I (painfully) followed recent advice re: settlement,etc. I *did* trade for Pottery but later and from the Aztecs (45g). Until getting POTTERY I did what Germany does best in between producing SETTLERS and WORKERS...I built BARRACKS and produced CHARIOTS/HORSEMEN (also traded from AZTECS).

    At one point, which you'll see in the next post, it looked like Russia was going to DOW Germany (in 850BC). I wasn't prepared so traded for several techs at once with 15g down and something like 12g/t. This improved Russia's attitude from "annoyed" to "polite" until 490BC. Had Russia DOW'd the 12g/t would be cxl'd.

    In 490BC, when I had REXed 11 cities and occupied all city sites within d12 of BERLIN, Russia demanded some minor "gift" (something like terr.map + 20g). I refused (had just pd. off American and Aztecs and wasn't in the mood for more) and Russia obliged by DOWing Germany (which let me off the hook on another trade...saved about 20g).

    In the relatively brief war which followed (490BC-320BC) there was a validation for the use of vet. HORSEMEN (which surprised me when nearly all retreated when they should and didn't when they shouldn't). I was worried about my use of the HORSEMEN, as I'm not particularly good at it, but I made hit and run attacks, stacked them to protect the injured, and tried to make sure there was a safe tile to retreat to at the end of each turn.

    BTW: Germany cap'd 3 cities (dest. 0) and 5 workers(50sh.), killed 7 spearmen (140sh.) and 14 archers (280sh.) at the loss of 4 swordsmen (120sh) and 5 horsemen (150sh)[Total Ger.:Russ. losses...270:470 shields. Germany got a LEADER from an elite HORSEMAN and used it to form a 3 horsemen ARMY (for HEROIC EPIC).

    I had to call for peace when a hidden Russian galley landed an archer next to an ungarrisoned German city (see pic below...I think). Russia pd. Polyth., Lit., Math., Map Making, and 1 worker for peace (not great but okay).

    Current Situation:
    Germany's Demographics- #2 in pop.; #4 in Mfg.(shields), land, family size (food); #5 in productivity (I'm using entertainers instead of lux. slider); #6 GNP (other AI's probably are Republic).

    Known Civs:
    Aztecs 510pts (13 cities) annoyed Republic, start Hanging Gardens in Tenochtitlan
    Russia 483pts (11 cities) furious Republic, 20t peace, start Hanging Gardens in St.Petersburg
    Germany 423pts (14 cities)
    America 398pts (8 cities) annoyed Anarchy (to Republic?), galley near Hannover

    Each of these civs each have all the techs I could learn next: Monarchy, Code Laws, Philos., Currency, & Const. (plus Republic) and I suspect Feudalism (pikemen) and Monotheism are "out there".

    City Placement:
    I planned my CP differently than my usual pseudo "all war" (AW) Monarch game; especially difficult now being Germany. Cologne because a settler, at the time of Russia's expected DOW, counted against unit support. Bremen for same reason plus wanted friendly zone of control (ZOC) near Tblisi (and later Yakutsk) for injured units to retire to and expected each to be dest. or cap.'d.

    I'd like to PALACE JUMP or **FP** HEIDELBERG.
     
  9. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    This is the situation at the time I made a 15g+12g/t deal with threatening Russia.

     
  10. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    This is the situation the turn after Russia pd. for acceptance of my requested peace.



    If I FP Heidelburg, city distances would be as follows [# before name=d. from BERLIN capital//# after=d. from FP HEIDELBURG]:

    0*BERLIN 7
    4 Hamburg 7
    4 Konigsberg 8
    7 Nuremberg 7
    8 Cologne 10
    7 HEIDELBERG 0*
    9 Kiev 3
    4 Leipzig 3
    10 Yakutsk 3
    7 Munich 4
    8 Frankfurt 4
    10 Bremen 6
    14 Sevastopol 8
    12 Hannover 9
     
  11. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    Plans:
    - make contact w/ other civs
    - switch to Monarchy or Republic
    - switch showing prod. queues (right now they are off-the-cuff place holders)
    - substantially increase military HORSEMEN only??? (current total # units: 34 // Despotism # allowed: 56)

    Current Units:
    1 settler
    7 workers
    6 warriors
    2 spearmen
    5 swordsmen
    12 horsemen
    1 3-horsemen army

    Currently Under Production (bldgs. as placeholders in most cases):
    4 settlers
    3 horsemen
    3 temples (ea. in GER-RUS border city)
    3 harbors (ea. in 2 pop. max. coastal city)
    1 granary

    I seem to remember my Pre-Calc final (many yrs. ago) was not as difficult as keeping to the advice on how to proceed with an Emperor level REX. From 850BC onward Russian units were all over the place and it was like "holding sand in a seive" in keeping track of all the potential vulnerabilites I could have so, please, give me a break about what I should have done. It's already been done; in time I'll get better. Trust me, I'll be reading this thread repeatedly in the days, weeks, months to come. I know where I compromised, counter to what I was previously been told (ie. my current unit roster), and I know the impact of having done so.

    Given the unchangable situation you see above, what do any of you honestly think should be done next? Please feel free to ask questions.

    And, mostly, I want you to know I truly appreciate both the criticisms and advice you've given. I'm sure you've helped not only myself but all the lurkers that have viewed (and will view) this thread. **Thank You***
     
  12. MAS

    MAS Chieftain

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    I don't think so, keep in mind that in a "normal" game you wouldn't know that Kiev would be placed there. Given the information you have at the start, placing your second city near the 2th cow would be a good choice.

    And I think you could have won from russia just as well even with Kiev near your capital.

    Some notes:
    #Your improved roadnetwork has worked out well. I think It is the biggest reason you did better this try. :goodjob:
    #For what reason are you building/did you build those temples?
    #why is sevastopol making a granary?
    #why didn't you irigate the wheet near Munich?

    If those shields where invested in horseman, you could maybe have wiped Russia completely.

    Taking an other look.. ehm, you are right, I see now there are some other things that could be done first.
     
  13. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Chieftain

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    - make contact w/ other civs
    >That is very important indeed. High priority on this one. Get 1 or 2 galleys to move around the world.

    - switch to Monarchy or Republic
    >Republic is normally prefered. You may need to pay a little unit support. Get cities to size 7+ and get many more cities from Russia. Also ICS corrupt lands for even more cities and thus unit support as well as scientists.

    - switch showing prod. queues (right now they are off-the-cuff place holders)
    >Temples are no good really for those border cities. You will capture their border cities by the time your culture starts to accumulate anyway.

    - substantially increase military HORSEMEN only??? (current total # units: 34 // Despotism # allowed: 56)
    >Keep building horses for a while. When you swich to republic, you can disband those warriors and the 2 spears to reduce upkeep..

    Russia should soon be history.
    You just add a bunch more horses to destroy russia completely.
    Fill the conquered land with cities for unit support and scientists.
    Then you decide if you are gonna win this game with knights or not. If you think you can, you just keep building horses and galleys needed to transport them. You can then upgrade horses to knights when chivalry is reached.
    If you don't think you can win with knights, you start building some libraries after having enough units to handle Russia. Building libs doesn't mean you are gonna stop fighting though. Just find your next opponent and do all the damage you can do with your horses. Build libs only in cities with 12+ uncorrupted commerce.

    Keep your units together. Don't let the horses move around by themselves. Keep them in large stacks so that if there is an enemy near, you can be sure to kill it. If you attack with 1 unit and your horse gets redlined and retreats, it will die next turn in a counter attack. Also, whenever you attack a city, you must be 95% sure you are gonna capture that city in 1 turn. Wasting units on a failed attack is no good.

    Oh, and a little tip: be carefull using those spaceholders in your build que. I know exactly how it happens, you are fighting a war, a city is ready with it's production and you don't really want to think about that build que, you want the next turn to attack those damn russians ! So you just choose something random and continu the war.
    This is dangerous. Another difficult aspect of civilisation (difficult because of the needed discipline) is to keep thinking about every detail, also while fighting wars.
    It is pretty easy to forget about those prebuilds and find out you actually should have build something while you already have way too many shields for that.

    I think you are still using some not fully worked tiles. You have many tiles roaded but not mined. You may need a little more workers to do the mining. It also looks like you should cut that forest near koningsberg, it has only 1 grassland tile available now. cut that forest to give it a second one. Try not to use forest tiles or other tiles that give only 1 food before you are in republic where you can compensate by using irrigated grassland.
    Oh ye, you say you have 7 workers in your last post. That ain't enough. You need a bunch more.

    Berlin 11, Frankfurt 13: That is the proof you are using 1 food tiles or specialists. Don't do that. Always let your cities grow as fast as possible.

    This complete focus in food is the difference between a struggle on emperor and a gotm win on deity:
    -cutting forests where needed
    -not using 1 food tiles
    -not using specialists
    -irrigating every food bonus tiles when possible
    -rexing as fast as possible (for example, when you can choose between completing a settler 2 turns before your cities grows size3 or 2 turns after it grows size3 with a warrior first, do not build the warrior, a warrior is not worth the 4 food you lose by far. You lose 4 food because you could have a new city with 2fpt surplus 2 turns earlier)

    Just keep us updated. We keep answering all questions and giving you advise you did not ask for as well :D
     
  14. MAS

    MAS Chieftain

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    Saying what should have been done is usefull advice for any lurkers and for any future games.

    But from this situation on, I think you should build more settlers, workers, and horseman. You'll want to remove russia, so prepare for an other war, probably when your current peace deal ends.
    Do not build any more temples. In fact, you may even want to sell some existing ones. Just build barracks in towns that are productive enough to be unit pumps, all other towns need to build settlers and workers. More granaries will not be needed, only core-city settler pumps need them.

    BTW: good work on that war! :goodjob:
     
  15. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    Thanks for helping me go on from this point. I won't have a chance to get back to the game for another day or two, I think. However, every once in a while I start a new game for an hour or so and am getting more comfortable with expanding without so many defenders.

    I saw a reference to SCIENTISTS. To tell you the truth...I've almost never used them on other levels. I assume they're only useful once one is out of Despotism and into Republic.

    Also, if I'm going to go from Despotism to Republic then my wars will have to be relatively short to mitigate the affects of war weariness, right? Or do most just use the luxury slider to deal with a longer war.

    I'll change the build orders for the temples...and hope they're still my cities in 20 turns. I suspect I'll lose them when I conduct my Despot-Republic REVOLUTION.

    Thanks for the encouragement and praise (it felt nice to hear).

    Have a good week-end. Happy Father's Day on Sunday.
     
  16. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    ...means I won't be painting the house today, darn!:D

    In the above game I played on from 310BC-70AD. I'm falling seriously behind in techs and the 20t peace with Russia means a wait before taking them on again for more techs...but the next war with them should be of conquest as time is passing.

    Anyway, the Aztecs are the next nearest civ and they made a second demand of me...which I paid.

    I switched the temples to workers/settlers and irrigated that bonus wheat tile next to Munich. That was an oversight because I'm so used to mining in Despotism and haven't really been ingrained with the idea that bonus grasslands are the exception to mining.

    NOTICE THIS, PLEASE: I also meant to ask...what do you all think of either PALACE JUMP or FP Heidelberg? Should I PJ later in the game....borderline exploit...and FP or neither? I have another LEADER (the first made a 3-horsemen ARMY which has been victorious). As Germany, I'm anticipating you would advise using this second leader for rush-built HEROIC EPIC rather than a Great Wonder or FP, right?

    THIS, ALSO: I made contact with FRANCE...there's England up there somewhere, too. Making these contact should improve my tech research costs but, at this point, I'm wondering if I should research at 0% and rely on peace settlements for techs.

    BTW: In 90BC I DOW'd the AZTECS. I figured they are aways off and will take time to get units to me and there are chokepoints between them and Germany. On a whim I asked Russia to ally vs. Aztecs and for world(map), 5g+9g/t they did! This will help deplete their military by the time of my next attack in 20t.

    Since Russia was so cheap I asked America the same....for world, 10g+13g/t they joined in.

    After making contact with France, in 70AD, they joined in for world, 5g+7g/t.

    Notice I pay little down and mostly in gpt...in case they make peace with Aztecs before the 20t alliance is up.

    I think these other AI civs were willing to ally vs Aztecs because the Aztecs are in the lead:
    Aztecs 656
    France 594
    Russia 536
    Germany 519
    America 482
     
  17. MAS

    MAS Chieftain

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    This was Vanila correct? Yeah, build the FP in Heidelberg, that should work out very well.
    We don't know yet how big that russian area is there in the black, but if it is big enough, you'll want to build the palace somewhere in that area.

    Other options are to build the FP in Leipzig and the palace in Moskow.

    The scientist (or taxman) should be placed in the totally corrupt towns far away. In those cities, you irrigate everything and use the surplus food to support specialist.
     
  18. Rurik

    Rurik Chieftain

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    Yes, Vanilla. I didn't realize I hadn't updated the map. I'm starting to get quite a few elite horsemen and was debating doing Heroic Epic to increase chances that much more.

    Thanks for the SCIENTIST idea.

    Current map:


    Current Situation:
    110AD Russian-Aztec peace
    130AD Russian-German ally vs Aztecs...2nd time (Ger. pd. 3g/t...1st time: 5g+9g/t))
    150AD American-Aztec peace
    170AD American-German ally vs Aztecs...2nd time (Ger. pd. 15g+9g/t...1st time: 10g+13g/t)
    210AD France DOW'd England
    230AD Germany DOW'd England (and then got 10g+2g/t from gracious France for alliance vs. England)
    280AD Russian-Aztec peace (again)
    280AD furious Russia asks for RoP w/ Germany (no current per turn agreements between us)...yeah, right, like that's going to happen.
     
  19. MAS

    MAS Chieftain

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    The city called "Malinalco" looks tasty, you should somehow get controll of that location. And keep controll of it. When your current deals with the civ that owns it are over.... Then concentrate in taking Russia, and then the Aztecs.
    Have a gang of workers ready to hook up that lux on the far side of Russia as soon as possible.

    If you get a leader, you may want to use it to get the palace in the Aztec area. Then, after some thoughtfully placed courthouses and citylocations, you'll have a huge empire where most cities are at least reasonally productive.

    I'm not sure when you should switch to republic, my first thought is to take on russia till about Krasnoyarsk, then switch. Assuming most of your core cities will have grown. Have them build aquaducts between horses, not all at the same time ofcourse.
     
  20. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Chieftain

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    I don't think you should get too fancy about strategic locations.

    I'd rather just start fighting against Russia first and leave malinalco for later.

    If you want to control the troops moving between the 2 semi-continents, you can do that without taking that city.
     

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