Advice for playing Byzantines on Immortal for Religious Game

[danaphanous]

I play immortal usually, occasionally emperor if I want a more relaxed game for experimentation. Returned to Byzantines today to see if I could build a sweet religion--then I remembered why Byzantines annoy me on the level of difficulty I play...

The issue I have with religious civs like the Byzantines is they are set up perfectly for getting a great religion, however, due to not having any starting faith sources unless I get a lucky ruin strike the shrine often isn't enough to get the early pantheons thus I lose 15-20 turns chasing it. This snowballs. when I finally found all that is left is weaker picks. I can do it on smaller maps but big maps too many competitors get there first and I'm left with not so good choices. So are Byzantines only good on Emperor and below where the AI don't get pottery? Does anyone have any advice for getting a competitive religion going on immortal and deity and big maps?

This past game I got pottery from a ruin which saved 5 turns, built shrine in 5, and missed the first pantheon by 3 turns despite this wonderful luck. Missed the 2nd pantheon by 1 turn. Missed the third by 1 turn...it sucked. I was all ready to go with stone circles but because of this cascade due to the AI starting with pottery and it being a huge map with twelve civs this resulted in me getting the 4th founding.

The result was worse then picking someone like Shoshone or Celts despite the Byzantines supposedly being great for religion due to so much of the good religious buildings being gone. I'm trying to go wide but all but monastaries was gone for religious buildings which has no happiness. To offset I picked+2 happiness from and +2 culture from temples. Now I realize this is the same as a pagoda that costs me money and I have to hard-build and I'm stuck with like +50 faith a turn able to buy buildings every 3 to 4 turns but no way to spend it. I guess I was naive to hope I'd get 2 buildings but it would've been super nice and I was so close! I'm now wondering if the Byzantines ability is wasted on immortal. I just can't seem to get a decent religion and the 3rd choice is usually just making up for this fact. My religion with Celts on similar settings was far, far stronger and the wide empire much more feasible.

My neighbor has pagodas, cathedrals, and Jesuit Education and if she would spread it to me I would love to buy all her buildings with my massive faith output then convert them back but she isn't sending any missionaries my way. Any advice for getting her to do so? Usually this is not something you want but it would be so nice if I got her buildings in half my cities then flipped them back. I have the faith to easily do this and could get the best of both religions. So what's the best way to get her mad and start a religious war so I get tons of missionary spam?

On another note, does anyone have advice for a religious build the AI doesn't pick so often, maybe a different strategy then wide/religious buildings? The issue is those buildings are the best source of happiness from religion as well so my wide empire misses them and cities are staying smaller this round. I can concieve of some local religion that boosted growth and production in a tall empire but honestly I find tall play rather boring. I love expansion and war and the growth is wasted when I can't support it due to happiness issues so I find myself gravitating towards happiness and money from religion.

One another note I've already been attacked by two neighbors due to my aggressive expansion and crushed both. My archers are close to logistics, my cataphracts close to march & blitz and most of my dromon's got range upgrades. I may have to turn this into a conquest game. The random map rolled Archipelego too

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[Kriogen]

Your best bet is nearby religious City State(s) or religious Natural Wonder.

It's why Byzantium is not top tier civ. If you get lucky its near the top, if you get unlucky its like why bother. Like Spain I guess.

By the way. I prefere continents map. A bit easier to get early contact with CS and/or NW. No need to swim from start. You still start near water so you can burn something with dromons.

 

[beetle]

So are Byzantines only good on Emperor and below where the AI don't get pottery?

Nah, you can found (late) at Deity, and any religion is okay. Just about every game Tithe and Religious Texts are available, and those are the best Founder and Enhancer beliefs. Everything else is gravy. If you miss all the building you can almost always get Happy from Shrines or Temples.

Does anyone have any advice for getting a competitive religion going on immortal and deity and big maps?

I would guess big maps means fewer choices for follower picks? I can only say re-roll until you like your start. Or hand-pick you opponents to leave out Maya, Celts, and Ethiopia.

I'm trying to go wide but all but monastaries was gone for religious buildings which has no happiness.

Yeah, but it has a discounted faith cost and so pays for itself all game long. It is good building if you can get them early, which it sounds like you can.

To offset I picked+2 happiness from and +2 culture from temples.

Happy from Temples is great! You should be building temples anyway, to unlock Grand Temple ASAP. Temples generate +25% gold too, since you should eventually unlock all of Piety.

I am not sure about +2 culture from temples. That is pretty weak, compared to your alternatives.

...I'm stuck with like +50 faith a turn able to buy buildings every 3 to 4 turns but no way to spend it.

Reform, and get To the Glory of God. You are going to have a good game!

I guess I was naive to hope I'd get 2 buildings but it would've been super nice and I was so close! I'm now wondering if the Byzantines ability is wasted on immortal.

You are defining “waste" as not getting two faith buildings. That is very narrow thinking. My preference for the bonus belief is a second enhancer.

So what's the best way to get her mad and start a religious war so I get tons of missionary spam?

I would say stalk her territory and make a DOW by pinching a GPr.

The issue is those buildings are the best source of happiness from religion as well so my wide empire misses them and cities are staying smaller this round.

The +2 Happy from Temples is a good catch. If you have lots of rivers, the Happy boost to Gardens can be nice.

I may have to turn this into a conquest game. The random map rolled Archipelego too

That sounds fun!

It's why Byzantium is not top tier civ. If you get lucky its near the top, if you get unlucky its like why bother. Like Spain I guess.

I actually think Byzantium is worse than Spain in this regard. Getting two faith buildings needs crazy amount of luck -- much more luck than Spain needs for a decent game! Not founding with Byzantium is worse than not finding any NW first with Spain.

On the other hand, so long as I found, which is about 50/50, I have a good game with Byzantium. Spain with no nearby NW, which is not unlikely, is very underwhelming. So all things being equal, I would rather play Byzantium!

 

[Makenshi]

Spain with no nearby NW, which is not unlikely, is very underwhelming.

And that's why I only play Spain in the scenarios, Into the Renaissance [where Spain is a beast] and Conquest of New World Deluxe [where UA doesn't matter so much].

 

[fyar]

Yes, that's precisely the problem with Byzantium. As for trying to spread an opposing religion to you, the best way is through warfare. Ideally, you can go to war and steal a great prophet from them. Otherwise, you could take one of their cities, and faith buy yourself missionaries since it sounds like you have some extra faith.

 

[danaphanous]

thanks for the encouragement! I realize that my thinking is probably a bit narrow, I just love the religious buildings. I have fond memories of spamming them away with the Celts and simultaneously able to go tall and wide as a result. I'll experiment with some other picks then. I guess the optimal thing would be to find a combo I like that the AI doesn't pick so often and they definitely prioritize religious buildings.

Just out of curiousity why do you say that the +2 culture from temples is weak? I didn't have a ton of choices and it looked ok to me. My thought was to generate more culture to speed through piety faster. I was hoping to get enough extra culture to make it so my expansion didn't hurt my policy acquisition. I may have not needed it with monastaries though which I'm buying really rapidly as you say. Now that you guys mention it I do have one city in my empire that is her religion and a city site where it would probably acquire it as well. I can produce missionaries that spread her religion from there correct? I'm thinking if I can get her religion in 2 more cities it'll give me more things to buy in the meantime while I finish piety.

If I have the choice should I go sacred sites or glory of god? Those are probably the best 2 left. I have low tourism from my wars which is why I was considering sacred sites but I don't need a culture win, I just need enough defense I won't be affected come ideologies.

 

[darkskies]

Play with fewer AI's (10 on a huge map is a good compromise I find). Build two scouts first thing to increase finding ruins and religious city-states, though I usually just do one along with my warrior usually gets the job done. Of course if you're on an Island bee-line for sailing and optics you need to get out and get off the rock fast. But on immortal and Deity you're probably not going to get top pick unless you are really lucky (like getting two religious point ruins after getting your pantheon). If you are really desperate, you can reload the game until a ruin gives you religious points but that gets pretty tedious .

Also you can pick non-religious bonus AI's to play against though I usually prefer random except in water games where I hate having King K pop up out of nowhere.

 

[beetle]

Just out of curiousity why do you say that the +2 culture from temples is weak?

Because 2 cpt per city is just not that much. I would bet you could get more from God of the Open Sky! Even for a wide empire, I don't think Choral Music is as good as Religious Art. But my strong preference would have been for a 2nd enhancer that buffs missionaries or GPr.

Also, Sacred Sites is not very good at higher difficulty levels.

 

[durron597]

What social policies did you pick? If you really really want to push a religion fast, open Piety first before switching to Tradition or Liberty for the Shrine Build speed. Also it sounds like you probably had a bunch of other religious civs in your game, if you are against Arabia / Ethiopia / Celts you're probably not going to get your religion as fast as you want.

 

[Redaxe]

I think policy wise you should try for Liberty > Collective Rule, Piety > Organised Religion.

Go wide, lots of settlers.... shrines take priority. At immortal if you have a decent start then Stonehenge is an option if you steal a worker and have forest to chop.

Build order should be 2 scouts, shrine, maybe a third scout.... You need to find religious CSs fast. Also if you find ruins after turn 15 you might want to sit a scout there for another 5 turns to see if you can get a faith ruin...

 

[danaphanous]

That's a great strat red, but I was stuck on a large island this game. 2 CS, one militaristic, one mercantile, and mongolia. I found 3 ruins in about 6 turns but none gave faith. When it started to look like an island and I saw a mongolian scout to the north I aborted my 2nd scout on the 1st turn of build and part-built a monument then switched to shrine and did it as fast as I could. Then settlers as you say. For the faith I had 4 nearby stone/marble, unfortunately all near different city spots but I built settlers, sent workers and got stone circles and built shrines early. Still lost the race for pantheons but got the religion fairly quick. Finally found religious CS later, of course they were all halfway across the world next to the AI> Just a bad luck game I guess. I'm probably lucky I got the 4th pantheon tbh with no advantages. The ruin that gave me pottery saved 4 turns of research so that was probably what did it. Being on a continent with mongolia I was also forced to prioritize my UU's and he conquered both CS then DOWed me by turn 60 or so, so it was good I prepared. I easily won that war and took a lot of his cities. I now have a tidy wide empire and am consolidating and building science right now. Buying buildings every few turns.

Spreading my neighbor's religion via missionary worked really well but she never does it to me even though we've been at war and I denounced her and she denounced me. I guess she's scared or something, or maybe they only do it to you if you break clause first and send missionaries to them? Regardless I built my own missionary and I got it in my two second-best cities with one missionary (she might have that tenet that degrades other religions because they flipped fast) and bought pagodas and university since they have poor production. Built another city south to get it naturally, so now I have 4 cities to buy her 2 buildings and the science buildings. I'll probably leave it like that for a while before flipping them as being able to buy science buildings with faith in these production poor cities is really nice and public schools are very soon. I saved 19 turns on one of them because the only production hexes it has is one horse. The entire south is flat grassland, desert, coast, and no hills. I got lucky to have 2 sparse forest spots and definitely didn't chop them lol I'm crossing my fingers for oil otherwise this area will suck all game.

 

[Puhi]

In one of my more fun Byzantium games, I was able to found a religion quickly (religious cs and good faith pantheon - don't remember which one), and I choose the founder belief that gives culture for every 5 foreign followers of the religion, plus cheap missionaries as an enhancer. I spammed missionaries like crazy, and before too long I had increased my culture output tremendously. I was flying through social policies. It was a good alternative to the tithe/faith buildings approach.

 

[fyar]

Also, Sacred Sites is not very good at higher difficulty levels.

I've had a different experience. It's not the insta-win that it can be at lower levels (I won a cultural victory in the medieval ages at Prince by taking 3 buildings as Byzantium), but that does not make it "not very good." I've used Sacred Sites as a solid complement to my culture game. Even without going super-wide. I just went 4-city tradition, and the +16 additional tourism I got from sacred sites was definitely worth it and helped me to a cultural victory even before international games.

At higher difficulties, you definitely still have to do all of the other things: build up your tech, lots of other wonders. At Prince, you can win a cultural victory doing nothing else but spamming sacred sites, and that won't work at Deity. But it's still definitely effective.

 

[Mrdarklight]

My advice is this: be lucky.

Find a faith NW, or at least one impressionable Religious civ, who has a nearby camp they need cleared. Just building a Shrine isn't going to get you there. It might get you a pantheon, but not a religion.

In fact, I think the luck you need to get a religion on higher difficulty levels is one of the more annoying things in the game, although I understand why they did it this way. Some religions are good for getting religion, whereas some are good when they get one.

 

[beetle]

I've had a different experience. It's not the insta-win that it can be at lower levels (I won a cultural victory in the medieval ages at Prince by taking 3 buildings as Byzantium), but that does not make it "not very good." I've used Sacred Sites as a solid complement to my culture game.

I am happy to be corrected. So long as one is not thinking it will be an early win, the extra tourism is just fine!

I just played a game where I did not found but an AI gave me SS after I had built a couple faith buildings from a different AI. Then I got one more faith building from the SS religion. My Tourism was strong enough to get me Exotic or better with everyone, so I was able to stay in my preferred minority Ideology.

Still, OP is looking for faith sink. If you don’t finish out Aesthetics, then I think TtGoG is the way to go.

 

[fyar]

Still, OP is looking for faith sink. If you don’t finish out Aesthetics, then I think TtGoG is the way to go.

I agree that for the OP, Greater Glory of God is better, because he specifically said he is not seeking a cultural victory. And if you're not going into Aesthetics or seeking a cultural victory, then Sacred Sites definitely is not worth going 4 policies deep into Piety.

I disagreed with the notion that it's "not very good at higher levels" as a general statement. For a peaceful cultural victory on Deity, I'd argue that it's very powerful. Is it worth 4 policies into Piety? Consider that even if you only have 4 cities with two faith-bought buildings each (either you enhanced early enough to claim two, or allowed another religion to spread its buildings to you), I would estimate that sacred sites starting in the medieval era gives about as much tourism as, say... building the Sistine Chapel, Globe Theater, Uffizi, and Broadway in those cities. At Deity, building those four wonders might STILL not guarantee a peaceful cultural victory... but if you do build them, consider yourself well on your way.

 

[Redaxe]

That's a great strat red, but I was stuck on a large island this game. 2 CS, one militaristic, one mercantile, and mongolia. I found 3 ruins in about 6 turns but none gave faith. When it started to look like an island and I saw a mongolian scout to the north I aborted my 2nd scout on the 1st turn of build and part-built a monument then switched to shrine and did it as fast as I could. Then settlers as you say. For the faith I had 4 nearby stone/marble, unfortunately all near different city spots but I built settlers, sent workers and got stone circles and built shrines early. Still lost the race for pantheons but got the religion fairly quick. Finally found religious CS later, of course they were all halfway across the world next to the AI> Just a bad luck game I guess. I'm probably lucky I got the 4th pantheon tbh with no advantages. The ruin that gave me pottery saved 4 turns of research so that was probably what did it. Being on a continent with mongolia I was also forced to prioritize my UU's and he conquered both CS then DOWed me by turn 60 or so, so it was good I prepared. I easily won that war and took a lot of his cities. I now have a tidy wide empire and am consolidating and building science right now. Buying buildings every few turns.

Spreading my neighbor's religion via missionary worked really well but she never does it to me even though we've been at war and I denounced her and she denounced me. I guess she's scared or something, or maybe they only do it to you if you break clause first and send missionaries to them? Regardless I built my own missionary and I got it in my two second-best cities with one missionary (she might have that tenet that degrades other religions because they flipped fast) and bought pagodas and university since they have poor production. Built another city south to get it naturally, so now I have 4 cities to buy her 2 buildings and the science buildings. I'll probably leave it like that for a while before flipping them as being able to buy science buildings with faith in these production poor cities is really nice and public schools are very soon. I saved 19 turns on one of them because the only production hexes it has is one horse. The entire south is flat grassland, desert, coast, and no hills. I got lucky to have 2 sparse forest spots and definitely didn't chop them lol I'm crossing my fingers for oil otherwise this area will suck all game.

What I would do is - build 1-2 scouts. Use them and your warrior to try and destroy Mongolia's scouts (so they cant find ruins) and take their workers/pillage their land. Leave a couple of ruins until turn 20. Faith ruins aren't available until turn 20 - so long as you are sure no-one else can get to them.

Generally speaking though large island probably isn't the best map type for Byzantium. They depend on being able to settle a lot of cities to leverage of faith. Pangaea, Fractal or continents or small continents plus (large map) is a better way to go.
Either way I think in this scenario Stonehenge is your best bet - so i would put that as #1 priority. You can open liberty and then take the free worker (before republic) if you think that will help.

 

[Redaxe]

Oh and the other trick to playing wide with Byzantines is to try and keep as many of your expo's on the coast as you can, especially if you are forward settling. It's often not mentioned but the Byzantines as much as they are a lacklustre civ in general have absolutely amazing bonuses to defend coastal cities from early attack.
The Dromon unit can sit in a city and launch a strength 10 attack. If you have archers garrisoned in a city combined with the city attack this gives the Byzantines a unique advantage in that they can have 3 ranged attacks from each city (other civs have to get to Compass before they can do this). Thus you can hold coastal cities even if seriously outnumbered.
Even better is that the Dromon gains a +33% exp against land units if you take that promotion - land ranged units only get +15% bonus. So once you get to to 30exp (which is easy) your dromon is doing a strength 16 attack, making it nearly as powerful as a crossbowman at attacking land units! Not bad for 56 hammers.

 

[fyar]

That is a great point about the dromons, redaxe! I found dromons to be extremely powerful for that early part of the game, and I didn't even think about the promotions advantage they have over the archer promotions. They were so good that I almost felt like using them to explore (like I normally would normally do with a trireme) seemed a waste!

 

[danaphanous]

Didn't know it was as late as turn 20. Yeah, the landmass was pretty small, no ruins lasted that long this game. I'll remember your advice for next time. On immortal I figured I had little chance for stonehenge, esp. because my capital had poor growth opportunities in the beginning. It was good I didn't try for it because as I thought it was gone very quickly. I think T30 or so. I remember stonehenge disappeared before even the first pantheon was founded this game. I got a lot of hyper religious AI this game. I've seen so many missionaries it's ridiculous. Maybe the fact the map is huge is what did it. More chance for that flavor? ANyway it's been fun, the game is going well and I'm sure I'll win despite all the early trouble.