Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by GGracchus, Feb 19, 2011.
10 tiles from London, not too bad
@GG: Try exploring NE of the corn and then south of the gold (SE-ish of the c between the pigs and gold) with your warriors. Thatll tell you (i) whether the corn is best used in a city site with the copper (or if theres another resource off to the NE that the corn should be settled to obtain) and (ii) whether theres a food resource south of the gold (which will tell you whether you need to settle a city incorporating the pigs to enable you to work the gold). Depending on what your exploration throws up, you actually have the option of settling a very nice city 2N of c to net you gold, copper, loads of hills for production and pigs and corn to feed all those tiles. Admittedly, the city will be one off the river (so you miss the health bonuses and a levee), but its a very nice site IMHO.
BTW, ARs right IMHO on the other site youve marked out....the absence of food means itll take an age to grow. Have a look SW of the spices to see if theres more food in the area that will enable you to grow the city fast and still work the gold mine.
This is why exploration is so important early on to help find your neighbours, identify future city sites and help prioritise the order in which they get settled.
I've played to T42...
I'll post after you have so you're not tempted by the spoilers
You hvae NICE land is all I am going to say for the time being
Played up until turn 46
Kept on exploring, popped a scout from a hut
Turn 28: I found Izzy, so no isolation. She's to the east
Teched Wheel-Mysticism-AH-Pottery, built warriors(2)-settler-Stonehenge
Founded York turn 40
At turn 46, got Stonehenge. Stonehenge built by the English, most historically accurate? Or possibly it should have been built by the Celts, idk.
Here's the current scenario at turn 46
Just got AH, a source in my capital's BFC and another one to the south, another 1W of my spot in the south(I think)
Izzy's to the east, probably settle that direction to steal land from her before she settles it
You need workers - at least 2 more - I see you've queued them, but you could have improved the riverside GH already.
Not sure about your western City site - again no food until you get a border pop (10 turns IIRC, and nothing you can improve until then apart from 1 farm....
My report to follow.
Another major weakness of mine, I never build enough workers(ie 1.5 per city). Should I just cottage the capital?
@GG: Two things. Firstly, judging by your screenshot, I’d definitely have settled York 1E to get the gold in the BFC. (Indeed, I did precisely that in my earlier playthrough.) Yes, it takes York off the river but you’d have been able to work the gold and get a major source of commerce for your empire.
Secondly, one of the most common mis-plays amongst those playing at or around noble is their lack of workers. As has been mentioned many times previously, around 1.5 per city is a very good norm. More generally, the idea is to try and avoid working unimproved tiles, which I can see that you’re doing. Therefore, building a worker in the capital right now (which it looks like you’re doing) is a very good idea. Indeed, given that you’ve built Stonehenge (which means quick border pops), you might even consider building another worker after this one finishes – so you can improve all those resources ASAP. If you find a worker has little to do, remember that Vic is imperialistic – so you can always chop out settlers very fast, or indeed wonders with that stone.
EDIT: Sorry, crosspost with AR re: the workers...at this level, it's a very good idea IMHO to make yourself stop and build a worker whenever you find yourself working unimproved tiles. You'll be amazed at the difference it'll make to your game.
BTW, before you decide on cottaging the capital, count its food surplus - that'll tell you how many of those grassland tiles you need to farm.
Very true, but next city'll swipe a gold, although it, like the land i've seen, dosen't have an abundance of food. I'll get two workers, then what? Settler or GW? Uh...I'm not good at counting food surplus, so...i'm at a loss...
That’s why I was talking about the importance of the corn and pigs earlier – when you see resources like gold, try and pair them up with a food resource that enables you to grow your city whilst working that gold mine.
Re: settler or GW, there are a few things to consider IMHO:
(i) How good is the surrounding land? To know this, you need to keep exploring – it’s one of the great unwritten rules of Civ IMHO. So many civvers at noble see stone / marble and instantly plan wonders, but whether you build them depends on (i) who and where your neighbours are and (ii) how good the surrounding land is. To make a good judgement about whether you should build a wonder, you need to consider it’s merits alongside these two things...and you can only do that if you explore.
(ii) TGW is really beneficial if you have lots of land around you (which is true here), enabling barbs to practically spawn from anywhere. However, you have copper, so barring the barbarian uprising event, you should be able to fend them off quite easily with axes.
(iii) The other advantage that TGW gives you (apart from the 100% GG rate) is the potential to spawn a GSpy. This could be very useful here – it depends on how many other AI you meet. If there’s someone else in addition to Izzy around, you’ll probably be able to trade for a few techs. If it’s just you and Izzy on this landmass, she’ll be more reluctant to trade some techs (since most AI like to see that at least one other person they have met – apart from you – already has the tech before they’ll trade it.) As a result, if it is just Izzy and you, you could use a GSpy to steal some techs from her.
All this means that, before you make a decision on settler or TGW, explore a little more and see if there’s a great city site worth settling. If there is, then given that you have copper to kill barbs, I’d be inclined to get another settler out. If the land is mediocre (or you think that you have time to nab the city site you want before Izzy gets there), perhaps chop TGW (for the GSpy points), and then chop the settler.
EDIT 1: The part of this article titled "Feeding your city" will teach you everything you need to know about counting food surpluses:
EDIT 2: I notice you have a worker mining a hill by York...get him / her pasturing those pigs ASAP. Growing your cities is key...the more you grow your cities, the more tiles you work.
You have a basic +5 (+2 from city and +3 from corn) and a basic -13 which makes a total of -8 so you will need a total of 8 farms.
5 of them can be on the plains tiles, 2 now and 3 after you get irrigation with Civil Service, which means that 3 of your Grass tiles need to be farmed and the rest can be cottages (or a plantation in one case).
Now, it may be that you don't need to farm the riverside grass in the short term, you can farm the riverside plains and cottage the riverside grass, and farm the other grasslands once you have got CS.
If you get the Pyramids for Representation or Monarchy for HR and raise your happy cap, you might need to farm earlier in order to grown on without starving.
Fingers crossed I got all that right....
I got it wrong, it's -13 not 12.....
@AR: You were right the first time...its -7 (pre-civil service and biology), because improving the spices nets one extra food. Personally, Id be inclined to farm the grassland tiles (including 1N of the capital to irrigate the corn) and mine the hills to grow the city faster.
Oh god... I need a lot of farms...
Anyway, I played until turn 85.
Right now I've got 5 workers, 3 cities, and a settler
I built 2 workers, settler, GW
Lost the GW, unfortunately...
Continued to expand, got Nottingham ahead of Izzy, though at the cost of the GW
I had a mine and pasture on the horses, but 2 barbs forced me to sack a promoted chariot and lost both the mine and the pasture.
Anyway, I'm going to settle the 4th city at the c just south of nottingham.
Here's the south
And the situation at turn 85
<<< Still a newbie
Thanks learner gamer - I'll leave my mistake up.
Bad luck with the barbs.
My update to T42
I decided to go Masonry - Wheel , so changed my tech choice
T21 Started Worker on the riverside GH
T25 33Gg from a hut
T28 approx, warrior in started 2nd Worker - city size 3
T33 Met Isabella's warrior from the N, no idea where she is, but I'm not alone. However she can cause problems. Need to know how far away she is.
T34 2nd Worker out - started 3rd warrior.
T36 - Wheel done - started Pottery, Stone improved starting road to 1st expansion. Also 3rd warrior out, starting 1st settler.
T39 4 improvements done - starting pre-chops for poss wonders.
T42 Settler out - decision time....
Firstly; where to settle.
The blue circle 2N of pigs looks very good indeed, and I would be very tempted to settle there. However, I have seen Learner Gamer's comments and think the the GH is probably a better site. Despite that, I am going to play this as if I didn't know that and settle at the game suggestion site. I get riverside and with a Levee later on this will be a fantastic city. Might even move the capital here.....
There are a three very good sites in the south, including a potential GP farm with the pigs, fish and gold on the south coast which my warrior is going to check out now.
I definitely need to research both mysticism and animal husbandry next. Pottery was a mistake.....
That makes two of us
Yeah, I probably still could have settled the city and gotten the GW, but whatever
@AR: No worries at all, it was a very good attempt and explanation.
@GG: Wow, youre playing quite fast. I understand the logic of settling the corn / gold / horses site but what will you do about the fish S, SW of the corn (given that you then wont be allowed to settle another city in between the corn and pigs)? Presumably, youll be settling the pigs / fish / horses?
Do you have OB with Izzy BTW....theres a road from Nottingham to her empire (via her corn) so you can now get foreign trade routes.
One other point, did you actually build that granary and library showing in the 1360BC screenie? If so, Id humbly submit that youve built them a little early. Youre usually better off IMHO spending the early game building wonders or units (ie. settlers, workers, military) so you can settle land, work improved tiles and defend yourself / attack a neighbour / fogbust good city sites. Infrastructure usually waits IMHO until youve achieved (i) (iii) and gotten the early wonders you wanted, unless either your economy has crashed through RExxing and / or you have a stellar GP farm.
Talking of wonders, Im certain that not getting TGW is due entirely to the lack of early workers. Indeed, it illustrates the irony re: getting more workers early. A lot of noble players look at the time it takes to get out a really early second worker, decide to postpone its build and grow onto unimproved tiles instead. However, that extra early second worker means you can grow onto improved tiles to boost production and / or road into new city sites and / or chop in settlers and wonders and usually pays for itself many times over. Indeed, it was only by getting an early second worker out and doing things like chopping the forest and farming the spices that enabled me to settle York, Nottingham, Hastings and grab Stonehenge and TGW (at 1600BC IIRC) all by 1400BC.
Shadow to 1400BC attached avert your gaze GG until youve explored your landmass a little more.
That's why I don't get enough workers/settlers: I build infrastructure
I think I'm going to settle 1W of the gold, and another 1 SW of the pigs, plus a dye city(probably) for 6...all in 1360 years
I've now played to T66 I think.
report incoming, but I have explored a lot more than you GG just with the 1st warrior so don't look yet.
uploading photos now will edit in 5
So I made a few mistakes....
T42 started 'mids - should have goen for stonehenge then the mids, but mistake 1 - I didn't know Mysticism.
T43 Pottery done, Started Myst - AH. Spy points towards Isabella.
T44 York Settled - started worker as can't build monument. Worker 2 on Corn.
T45 Map from a hut in the S (which looks very nice land) - I spy Izzy
T47 SH built somewhere in the world.
T51 Hut - XP for unit - woods 2 TYVM - also chopping 'mids
T55 AH done - Horses in BFC. Started writing for Libraries
T58 Isabella asks for OB - yes
T61 writing done - what next? Plumped for alphabet. I don't need Monarchyy for HR if I have the Pyramids - which I will get in 3 turns now (2 chops done into it).
Could go Aesthetics, bit not convinced it's a good choice with only Issy so far, we look to be semi isolated which is a bit of a bore. HBR and archery don't need yet - copper soon for axes. sailing for trade - probably soonish not needed now though.
T63 Monument and worker are both done in York (size 3 now), started TGW. 'Mids built started Settler
T64 TGW built in a distant land - 56 fail gold TYVM.
Current map and cities
What next - I need to revolt into representation - rex like mad and built up a defence against Izzy in case she's looking for action.
Need Astro to go see what's out there soonish - will build a coastal city next, so sailing looking a priority. I might just go for the southern cities asap and back fill.....
No worries at all...its a very common mistake...I know I certainly made it many, many times when I first started playing noble. It’s why I mentioned earlier that it’s a really good discipline to stop and build a worker whenever you see yourself about to work unimproved tiles. If you can do that, you’ll start breezing through noble in no time.
BTW: Is the dye covered by jungle? If so, how do you plan to acquire IW...and do you want to wait to settle the dye until you have IW? Personally, I thought 1E of the gold was fine for corn / horses / gold.
EDIT: If you do OB with Izzy, don't forget to keep exploring and scout her out.
Played until turn 136, 520 AD
I kept on teching, now I'm backfilling all the religious techs.
Really wished I got TGW, almost lost 3 workers to a warrior before I ran them back. Got Izzy to pleased, although she's still not willing to trade
I settled Hastings and Canterbury
Luckily got a late pyramids, flipped to Rep
Hanging gardens came my way, too
I just got a GS
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