Aerial and Naval combat/strategy

NukeAJS

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In older civ series, you started with armies, then weak navies, then quite strong navies, and then air units were introduced. The introduction of air units changes things -- big time.

However, CivBE doesn't have this historical barrier. All factions landing on the planet clearly have an enormous amount of knowledge of aeronautics simply displayed by the fact that they made the journey and (most?) the colonists survived. Their knowledge would obviously be far beyond our current knowledge.

So, where does this put air units as far as the start goes in CivBE?

To me, it would make sense to have some basic scouting air unit(s) become available fairly soon. I'm thinking the Civ5 gunship but it cannot attack and with the ability to not be targeted unless the aliens or rival has a special unit or ability (think drone). Also, the inability to pick up "goody huts" just because moving 6 hexes a turn with goody huts out there seems silly.

From there, I really don't know. Like I said before, air units are a massive game changer on so many levels in Civ5 and 4. The first to great war bombers can basically defend or attack anyone, first to get a good amount of interceptors either takes air supremacy or nullifies it, then there are atomic bombs which make interceptors even more valuable (on both sides), and lastly their are stealth bombers which basically means the same thing as great war bombers except that there is no counter true counter.
 

3of5

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With explorers being basically archeologists that are consumed on use, exploration will be quite slow on planet. Their role is not "explore until consumed by barbarians" any more, so they probably won't explore that far outwards. As an alternative there is the terrain scanner as ship loadout option on game start. Unmanned drone tech would, even if uninterrupted non-base dependant flight being unlikely, at least drastically improve the Explorers range of sight. I also don't know this gunship unit that you are referencing too. Would that be an air unit that has no need to return to base and refuel, like the airships in the steampunk szenario?
 

Catalytic

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I would argue there's a good basis for delaying both naval and flight already written into the story.

The colony ship arrives with some materials, yes, but they're used to establish living quarters and basic facilities for sustaining life on a new planet.

Ships in a modern navy are enormous. You'd need a very large industrial base to support such things: a way to produce the various metals, do necessary metallurgy and forging, then assembly. Keep in my you'd need to already have large drydock machinery built to construct these things. Then add in all the wires, plumbing, and various engine works to suit your power source of choice and you've got a pretty tall order. Even the wooden ships of the Age of Sail took years to construct and the best carpenters and shipwrights you could find. All of this infrastructure would have to be build from scratch on a new planet, people educated and employed to run it, and ultimately a large enough specialized enough economy to allow them to spare the time and resources to build it.

Now, add in the costs of building a plane. The specifications are demanding in order to physically get it aloft and keep it there. All of the same industrial and economic base needed to build ships would be needed to build planes. And of course you need a power source available on the planet to tap. Do they have oil to make into jet fuel on other planets, or do you need something radically new?

---

Just in terms of building complexity of the combat mechanic, I'd like to see these delayed or at least significant resource barriers put in place before you get massive shore bombardments and hard-to-counter or defend bomber waves.
 

10lire

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In Alpha Centauri the knowledge and the ability to build "flying units on a virgin planet" come later in the game. The reasons are more or less the same explained by Catalytic. Colonel Santiago (one of the AC's leaders) explains this concept here (from 2m22s to 2m56s; she talks about orbital probes, but the concept is the same for aeronautics).
 

Lancor

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When you start a new game in Civ games you already see quite some distance around your capital. Think of it as the gathered knowledge of the tribe and it's lands.
Now in CivBE the starting intel could be the result of some unmanned drones in the first few weeks after planetfall. They have limited range etc. Could be an explanation. Of course some cheap, buildable scouting drones would be cool too.
 

Darsnan

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I would argue there's a good basis for delaying both naval and flight already written into the story.
The colony ship arrives with some materials, yes, but they're used to establish living quarters and basic facilities for sustaining life on a new planet.
Ships in a modern navy are enormous. You'd need a very large industrial base to support such things.

+1 :goodjob: I’d also say that delaying the ability to build navies (and to a certain extent air forces) falls under the mantra of “a game should be an interesting series of choices”: give the player the choice if he wants to pursue gaining the ability to build aquatic units.

Two other thoughts:

1) One of BE’s map types is going to be aquatic, so shouldn’t the players be able to immediately be able to build aquatic units? From a gaming perspective I think it makes sense, especially in regards to the AIs (i.e. if it’s a water-centric map then you want the AIs to focus on this aspect of the game).
2) In SMACX submarines came very late in the game. I’d say move these units closer to the beginning of the game: AIs use these units very well, and they can prove to be a real PIA/ frustrating to human players to deal with.

D
 

KrikkitTwo

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+1 :goodjob: I’d also say that delaying the ability to build navies (and to a certain extent air forces) falls under the mantra of “a game should be an interesting series of choices”: give the player the choice if he wants to pursue gaining the ability to build aquatic units.

Two other thoughts:

1) One of BE’s map types is going to be aquatic, so shouldn’t the players be able to immediately be able to build aquatic units? From a gaming perspective I think it makes sense, especially in regards to the AIs (i.e. if it’s a water-centric map then you want the AIs to focus on this aspect of the game).
2) In SMACX submarines came very late in the game. I’d say move these units closer to the beginning of the game: AIs use these units very well, and they can prove to be a real PIA/ frustrating to human players to deal with.

D

1) I think both air+sea units should be available early-mid game (depending on how you prioritize them)

2) regarding "aquatic" maps... so far as we know there are 3 biomes
-fungal
-lush
-arid

and 4 map types (ie scripts)
-Atlantean
-Terran
-Vulcan
-Protean
[which I would guess as Islands, continents, pangea, and fractal]

I doubt you will actually have a map that is all water (especially since they haven't indicated any ability to build sea cities)
 

Darsnan

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2) regarding "aquatic" maps... so far as we know there are 3 biomes
-fungal
-lush
-arid

and 4 map types (ie scripts)
-Atlantean
-Terran
-Vulcan
-Protean
[which I would guess as Islands, continents, pangea, and fractal]

I doubt you will actually have a map that is all water (especially since they haven't indicated any ability to build sea cities)

Sorry - should have been more specific - I was referring to the Atlantean/ Islands environment. I do think that the game should prioritize aquatic elements when using the Atlantean script, possibly by initially giving all players the prerequisite tech to explore the sea (a la the Pirates from SMACX initially having Doc: Flex).

D
 

KrikkitTwo

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Sorry - should have been more specific - I was referring to the Atlantean/ Islands environment. I do think that the game should prioritize aquatic elements when using the Atlantean script, possibly by initially giving all players the prerequisite tech to explore the sea (a la the Pirates from SMACX initially having Doc: Flex).

D

If the map is not all water then
1. they don't necessarily need to build a sea going unit (naval military) immediately (although they should prioritize it)

2. I can say that it would Possibly be worthwhile to start units with the ability to embark.

And we don't know what requirements are needed for units to do that yet (its possible that all units can embark on all maps from the beginning)... or maybe just Explorers can embark from the beginning... and possibly only on 'coast tiles' ocean takes research.


If it is a 'tiny island' scenario (ie islands only large enough for 1 or 2 cities max) then you will need to prioritize navy

However, the only thing you are doing at the start of the game Before you research techs is exploring...

So If the Explorer starts with the ability to embark on coastal tiles from the beginning of the game on all maps, then remaining water maps issues can be handled by establishing research priorities.
(Planetary Survey looks like a probable case)


E3 Video at 3:32 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfQyG885arY

Fabrication tech gives

Naval Carrier unit
and
Alloy Foundry building

So carriers are in (and reasonably early ie second ring)
It seems normal ships may be in computers (first ring..but requires 1 other tech)

[also this suggests the crossed swords in Engineering (first tech) may be air units.. silly to have Carriers without air units]
 

s0nny80y

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You'd be forced to play larger maps which means you might never threaten territory of another, except for your relationship to alien lifeforms.

Aerial units in the early game could dominate and make Harmony exploitation of the land, feasible.
 

Denkt

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In Pandora first contact you can get aircrafts quite quickly but not at start because they have to be adapted for the planets condition which are not exactly the same as earth's.
I guess something similar will be in this game, you have to adept before you can build.
 

KrikkitTwo

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Looking at the tech tree, the only unit that looks like it might be an air unit is unlocked with Robotics , which is in the third of four tiers.

I don't know, Engineering seems just as reasonable for an air unit (given Carriers are available at Fabrication, So I would expect air units to be available first/at a directly connected tech)

Perhaps Bombers at Robotics & Fighters at Engineering?

Asssuming the 'tank' and 'naval' units are at computing, and a "ranger" unit is at physics
 

AriochIV

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I don't know, Engineering seems just as reasonable for an air unit (given Carriers are available at Fabrication, So I would expect air units to be available first/at a directly connected tech)

Perhaps Bombers at Robotics & Fighters at Engineering?

Asssuming the 'tank' and 'naval' units are at computing, and a "ranger" unit is at physics
My guess is that the crossed swords unit at Engineering is Cavalry, and the "tank" unit as Computing is Artillery, but it's guesswork at this point.
 

KrikkitTwo

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My guess is that the crossed swords unit at Engineering is Cavalry, and the "tank" unit as Computing is Artillery, but it's guesswork at this point.

That would make sense... the Carrier is the only thing that seems to throw that off...(I would expect the Carrier to be available directly connected to an air unit (otherwise, why put the carrier there?)

Although I could see it if say the Carrier also had some other benefit (Anti Air.. I don't have Air, but someone else does...perhaps it can Melee attack?... sort of like a Destroyer crossed with a Carrier)


Which would put most 'main' military units 2 techs away

1 tech away Physics (Ranger) OR Engineering ('cavalry'=tank)
2 techs from Either you can get Air units (at robotics)
from Engineering you can also get Carriers/ or Naval attack + Artillery*

*Actually that makes sense, those are both Ranged Units

That would be interesting if the "Carrier" at level 1 was basically the melee attack ship, can also carry 1 air unit... as it gained levels it could gain more ability to carry aircraft, AntiAir Intercept abilities and AntiSub abilities (and then 'sub abilities' would be possible perks for ranged naval units)


Also Robotics seems to be cheaper than Fabrication (Robotics (6), Fabrication (12) in the image)... so that does support that more
 

reddishrecue

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Some naval units had good anti airs while others had better naval strength stealth and vision. Air units didn't always have bonuses against naval units though. Only the high ranked aerial units had that targeting that is good against naval units.
 

KrikkitTwo

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Some naval units had good anti airs while others had better naval strength stealth and vision. Air units didn't always have bonuses against naval units though. Only the high ranked aerial units had that targeting that is good against naval units.

in Civ5, CivBE (how do you know) or reality?
 

reddishrecue

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That's what used to happen in civilization 5 . In civilization be I don't know who would know how the aerial and naval interaction will work. Life next to a water source.
 

Karl0413

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Alright, we know carriers are in. We know naval fighters have a bombardment attack because of what happened to the PAU colony in the demo video. Any word on submarines yet?
 
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