Affinities levelling using the BNW tourism mechanic

[Greasy Dave]

The thing is, nerfing trade routes will only reduce bpt - it won't change the basic game mechanic and problems that that brings - the tech hard and win routine
A nerf will make players look elsewhere for their bpt min maxing...but it won't change the basic strategy or game play.

The game has two very interesting new ideas - the tech web and affinities and I'd love to see them grown to their full potential.

The problem though is that because the two are tied together they can't create any kind of differential dynamism or tension. Increase tech, you increase affinity etc... yawn, game over, I've won

I just don't understand why the two aren't separate.

The tech tree needs to take you to the affinity military unit techs and the victory wonder techs - but it shouldn't allow you to increase in affinity. Affinity level/ experience needs to be earned elsewhere (and not through quests) - so there's tension in the game play. My bpt is high, I've just unlocked the mindflower tech - but my affinity level is bum low and I'm going to have to build it up.

They actually have the answer in BNW. If affinity levelling was made into something like the tourism/ ideology mechanic - OK, hold your fingers back from your keyboards and let me explain. I don't mean that affinity levels needs to be unlocked by culture. But it needs to be some kind of cultural propaganda, which can be generated and spread much like tourism is in BNW.

Think about it, my empire has discovered xeno swarms...but who am I going to get to volunteer to be morphed into this bio unit, unless my population actually believes to a degree in the harmony affinity. Maybe my neighbour is purity and is bombarding my satellite channels with videos of Bill the Battlesuit warrior and my population all want battle suits. How am I going to get them to cuddle up to the aliens if that's the case.

The game would have far more dynamism if this was the mechanic. Perhaps it wouldn't be exactly like BNW "tourism" where you raise your levels and go through set influence stages - perhaps it's to do with your own population and the percentage of them who believe in your chosen affinity. You're generating "affinity propaganda" and depending on the level and quality you're pumping out, and how much access your population has to alternative affinity propaganda your populations belief in your harmony choice will increase or decrease. The percentage of population who believe would unlock the various units and wonders eg. 20 percent might unlock level 4 units, 40 for level 7 etc.

This would open up a whole new dynamic. Spies could "tourism/ propaganda" bomb other nations (like great musicians in BNW) and lower their affinity level. Trade routes would bring in bootleg dvd's of other affinity video shows to your cities and increase the other affinity followers amongst your inhabitants - so TP's would actually nerf themselves. And finally the satellite layer would offer the opportuniy to launch media satellites above your neighbours, or your own cities where your bombard the citizens with "Harmony" tv shows - "Mork and the Alien"

That's my idea/ thoughts. Firaxis already have the mechanic solution in BNW. It just needs a little rerigging and lateral thinking.

 

[Greasy Dave]

double post deleted

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Similar idea in my signature

 

[SantoshKashyap]

Intersting idea. I really liked it!

 

[WiseGreen]

I don't think your affinity should exert pressure over other people's affinities. From a flavor standpoint, your affinity is not only a cultural system of beliefs and a certain social structure the way a ideology is in BNW, it is a path towards human evolution; past a certain level in one affinity (maybe lvl4-7, certainly past lvl12), one's not talking about different societies, it's pratically different species; you can arguably propaganda a communist society towards cultural collapse and adoption of capitalism/fascism, but you can't propaganda cats into wanting to be eagles or sharks. It might make sense at the start of the game when devotion to an affinity hasn't fundamentally changed your people and environment down to biological and geological levels, but not on mid-to-late games when people are breathing miasma to survive, or when most of their internal organs have been replaced by biomechanic systems. And from a gameplay standpoint, it would be extremely frustrating to suddenly lose access to your affinity uniques/upgrades after spending dozens of turns of research focusing on developing towards your affinity; either the AI couldn't deal with the system and it would become an exploit, or it could and it would be almost impossible for a human player to keep up militarly, and either way contact becomes the default win condition because it doesn't rest on any one affinity.

EDIT: OK, the cats/eagles/sharks analogy is a tad exaggerated, but the point is that the deeper you are on an affinity, the harder it should be to go back. It's not a question of fighting tourism (or an analogous currency) with culture. Past a certain point, it's not a matter of convincing anymore.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions

 

[Maximus_Light]

I had a similar, though different way of going about it in a thread, so I'll refer you to that if you're interested in my specific thoughts on the matter. It's called "Tying Culture and Affinities Together"

That said though, I don't know about separating them completely but I definitely agree that it shouldn't all be tied to science and culture should be a big part of it, and finding some way of making them push back and forth on each other, plus making culture be a part of developing it, since that should in theory affect the philosophies we would in real life. (plus the unique ability of fraco-iberia (spelling?) would make more sense as they would be better suited to developing their philosophy/affinity faster.)

 

[Bezurn]

I like the idea for establishing which direction you wish to lead your people through a tourism like system for the start / middle of the game. I think the next step after you have cemented your chosen ideology is to not make the "tourism" mechanic such a driving force of increasing the affinity level, but to instead transform your land, cities, and population into that society type. There would be about (three?) different vectors in which this would be approached in the mid to late game.

• Transform the land - Some of the worker improvements in the game are already tied to a certain type of affinity in that affinity experience is on the leaf tech and as a side effect certain tile improvements get a boost. Farms become more powerful with Purity. Supremacy can use Nodes and Arrays to supplement their troops, and Harmony embraces Biowells and Miasma. Additions to the tech could be made that would further separate the three affinities to make their land more unique. At a given affinity level (4-6)? further progress in your affinity can be earned over time by improvements that are being worked that mesh well with your chosen affinity. Points are added to a pool "affinity pool" which is a large counter that eventually ticks you over to a new affinity level once so many points have been accumulated.
  
  I'd also like to see improvement tile growth brought back much like cottages in Civ 4. Higher tier improvements would grant higher affinity point gain per turn, but they would also be more costly to maintain in either a reduction of energy, food, or production on that tile. Tiles could actually incur a negative yield, such that it reduces the output when worked by the city. This encourage a system where spamming your specific affinity tile improvement all over the map would cause a great drain on your economy of one of those yields, which are all important and would require some careful balancing to maintain positive incomes of all the yield types.
  
  • Purity Improvements:
    • Terrascapes: +Food, +Production, -Energy (+maintenance)
    • Dome: +Culture, +Health, -Food (+maintenance)
  • Supremacy Improvements:
    • Node: +Culture, +Energy, -Production (+maintenance)
    • Array: +Science, +Health, -Energy (+maintenance)
  • Harmony Improvements
    • Biowell: +Health, +Culture, -Production, -Energy (+maintenance)
    • Miasma: +Food
  
  You will notice I did not add Academies or Manufactories to this list. Science and production are important for any society, and as such should remain neutral to all affinities.
  
  ...
• Great People Return - What better way of furthering the ideology of your cause than to have notable people who make impactful progress in evolving your society to the one you have chosen. This would make specialists more meaningful and provide some incentives for a tall vs wide approach. A tall player would focus more on specialists, while a wide player would focus more on improvements. When a great person is born he can be used to increase a specific affinity, or be sent on a mission.
  
  Missions:
  • Great Engineer: Rush a wonder
  • Great Scientist: Gain a Beaker Boost (no free tech out-right)
  • Great Trader (merchant): Conduct a Trade mission
  • Great Artist: Gain a free virtue
  • Great Grower: Gain additional population in a city (more than 1 most likely)
  ...
• Golden Ages - Haven't fully thought this one out yet. But either tie this in with great people, or have it be its own thing. Perhaps excess health (stability) leads to faster affinity gain, while lower health slows down your progress. Perhaps have this a fallback mechanic that keeps the ball moving towards advancement in your affinity over time, but at a slower rate than focusing on the other options. Perhaps I'll sleep on it and think of how this dovetails into my silly ideas

In any event I like your idea and would like to decouple tech and affinity levels. Learning a tech should be about learning how to make and implement these new ideas. It is through the actual use and practical application that your society progresses in transforming itself into the path you have planned out for them.

 

[Bandobras Took]

The thing is, nerfing trade routes will only reduce bpt - it won't change the basic game mechanic and problems that that brings - the tech hard and win routine

I'm failing to understand how this is a problem, since it's been that way in just about every single iteration of Civ I can think of, even if the tech in question is Bronze Working.

 

[Greasy Dave]

Learning a tech should be about learning how to make and implement these new ideas. It is through the actual use and practical application that your society progresses in transforming itself into the path you have planned out for them.

This sums up my view exactly. MY idea of using the tourism mechanic was just an attempt to find some method to do it.

Not sure about your terraforming ideas though - it'd kind of box different affinities into specific different playstyles..because you'd be spamming the specific improvements to get the kick.

@ wisegreen, I'm not so sure I agree. To be blunt I was just looking for a way to implement some kind of mechanism that'd separate affinity experience from bpt. Tourism/ propaganda is a somewhat crude approximation, I agree. But I disagree that a whole population would instantly sign up to a particular affinity line. Humans don't work like that - and although you say they head down different evolution lines, they ultimately have a human core. I mean what happens when a harmony civ conquers the cities of a purity or supermacy civ? Do you think that everyone in those conquered cities willingly unplugs their cyber implants, hooks up to the gene machine and accepts the new regime without question after a few turns of marshal law? I doubt it.

Also, don't you think there will be individuals within those civs who will question the wisdom of the leader's chosen affinity? Pretty much half of all sci fi tells some kind of story like that, in one form or another. (OK, not half, but you know what I'm saying - individual in a super state who tries to rebel).

If the leader was doing a bad job and the empire was seriously "unhealthy" - I'm sure there'd be many more than a couple of heroic individuals who'd be fighting the system and looking to other affinities for answers

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Two affinity tourism / trade route threads merged.

 

[Greasy Dave]

I'm failing to understand how this is a problem, since it's been that way in just about every single iteration of Civ I can think of, even if the tech in question is Bronze Working.

Fair point.

On the other hand I'd like to point out 2 things.

First, BNW is tech hard or die, but that's not all it is - which is why it's a great game. If you focus only on your bpt and ignore your tourism and culture you're going to be stung in the end game at the harder difficulties. SO even if you're going for a SS vic, your game play can't be one dimensional. In this iteration of BE the game play pretty much is though - and I think that's a shame and my suggestion was looking for a way for it to be deeper.

Secondly, BE isn't quite like the other civ games - or at least IMV it doesn't have to be. It has affinities which hold a significant influence over the military units you can field. Currently affinity levels and those units are tied to bpt, so effectively it's no different from other civ iterations -tech hard, get stronger units, win. My question is, why do you think that model should be set in stone? Affinities and their connection to the military units have the capacity to provide so much deeper game play than this.

I'm suggesting a way to try and explore that.

@ moderator, perhaps this thread could be merged with the thread: "TP's don't need a nerf - affinity tourism will do it automatically" - they both contain the same idea and one got moved here from general discussion. Thanks

aah never mind- you beat me to it while I was typing. Thanks

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I had an idea that had I posted would probably have been merged into this one too. I would have titled it "Affinity flavored culture" and suggest that things like domes give culture tied to their appropriate affinity.

 

[Qbix]

It would already help if they would remove affinity level techs beyond the first 2 rings. This way you woud still have the dynamic early game but also the need to look outside of simple research in order to progress your Affinity further.

 

[Greasy Dave]

It would already help if they would remove affinity level techs beyond the first 2 rings. This way you woud still have the dynamic early game but also the need to look outside of simple research in order to progress your Affinity further.

Yeah, that would make a difference. You would have to commit to deep teching particular branches of the tree and not just snag the low hanging fruit. The only issue that I see with that is there'd be claims that one affinity had an advantage over another because it's deep tech branch also had better benefits than another affinity. Which is why I really think it needs to be a separate mechanism altogether.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Which is why I really think it needs to be a separate mechanism altogether.

Attaching affinity points to (national) wonders would make racing to wonders a lot more appealing and also work with the narrative aspect: a civilization needs to be a trailblazer for new kinds of humanity.

Shouldn't be the only additional affinity mechanism, of course, but it would make wonders more desirable without the need to make them "must-haves" for everybody.

 

[Greasy Dave]

Attaching affinity points to (national) wonders would make racing to wonders a lot more appealing and also work with the narrative aspect: a civilization needs to be a trailblazer for new kinds of humanity.

Shouldn't be the only additional affinity mechanism, of course, but it would make wonders more desirable without the need to make them "must-haves" for everybody.

It would definitely help. I can already imagine the competing Harmony AI civ pipping a player to the harmony wonder he was rushing to rush level 4 units.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Fair point.

On the other hand I'd like to point out 2 things.

First, BNW is tech hard or die, but that's not all it is - which is why it's a great game. If you focus only on your bpt and ignore your tourism and culture you're going to be stung in the end game at the harder difficulties. SO even if you're going for a SS vic, your game play can't be one dimensional. In this iteration of BE the game play pretty much is though - and I think that's a shame and my suggestion was looking for a way for it to be deeper.

Secondly, BE isn't quite like the other civ games - or at least IMV it doesn't have to be. It has affinities which hold a significant influence over the military units you can field. Currently affinity levels and those units are tied to bpt, so effectively it's no different from other civ iterations -tech hard, get stronger units, win. My question is, why do you think that model should be set in stone? Affinities and their connection to the military units have the capacity to provide so much deeper game play than this.

I'm suggesting a way to try and explore that.

Actually, I like the suggestion of attaching Affinities to Wonders, if that was done instead of attaching Affinity to techs, that would open up the game for a different focus.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Actually, I like the suggestion of attaching Affinities to Wonders, if that was done instead of attaching Affinity to techs, that would open up the game for a different focus.

I've thought of wonders for affinity points, although I do like picking up other affinities through covert ops and picking up cheep tech later so I wouldn't want all affinity through wonders. It should probably be projects though.
I considered it when I thought about putting negative modifiers on affinity technologies so if you took and off affinity tech it might affect something else you need more. Then I remembered tech stealing and it would suck to steal something that took down something you used a lot.

 

[silvertuerk]

"And from a gameplay standpoint, it would be extremely frustrating to suddenly lose access to your affinity uniques/upgrades" -- this sounds a bit too frustrating indeed. Perhaps propaganda satellite could give your Harmony affinity XP to the Purity guys among other things such as increasing your trade route yields by 25% and reducing their military unit production by 10%.

"It would already help if they would remove affinity level techs beyond the first 2 rings" -- perhaps. Perhaps adding a tech level equal to Pioneering and Planetary Survey that grants a key to gain a level of affinity (directly or via a national wonder) also reduces the science race feel because it is extremely early tech that does not require much dedication.