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Affinity Traits

Discussion in 'CivBE - Ideas and Suggestions' started by DefiantMars, Aug 5, 2015.

  1. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    After I saw the new Traits system I began thinking about the possibility of having Traits that are unique to an affinity. I thought that even within the same affinity, colonies would still turn out different based on their chosen focus. I don't think Elodie's Purity would look the same as Vadim's Purity the same way I cannot believe that Kavitha's Harmony is the same as Rejinaldo's Harmony. Therefore I felt that This system would help you define your affinity more specifically.

    This is a very, very, very incomplete draft of the concept. I wanted to wait until I had a more complete list, but I kept getting stuck. So I would like to know what you think and if you have any suggestions for both new or listed Traits feel free to leave them. Right now I'm just trying to get 2 for each of the 5 categories, and their Agreements. But if you have more, by all means go ahead.

    NOTE: This means that this list will change quite a bit so don't be surprised to see things move around, appear, or disappear altogether.

    Affinity Traits

    Your society is defined by your affinity and as you devote yourself to one, you can focus your society’s efforts toward particular ideals. Starting at Level 6 of any Affinity you will automatically gain access to 5 Trait slots; Culture and Industry Traits as well as another slot for Domestic, Political, and Military Traits.

    These 5 slot do not overlap with standard Traits and must be Affinity Traits. Each Affinity will grant you a choice between 2 Traits for each slot. These require Diplomatic Capital to be activated and will provide Agreements just as the standard Traits do.

    In order to access Tier 2 you need Level 9 of the appropriate Affinity. And in order to access Tier 3 you need level 12 of the appropriate Affinity. However the diplomatic capital cost for acquiring or upgrading traits is the same as standard Traits, but the cost scales independent from standard Traits.

    Switching to the alternate option of the Trait slot you currently have active will cost Diplomatic Capital but does not incur any penalty.

    If you have Level 6 in another Affinity, you may swap out a currently active Trait to that of another Affinity, but doing so will cause a few turns of unrest in which you will not gain the benefits of your Affinity Traits (your normal Traits continue working without issue).


    Harmony

    Spoiler :

    Domestic

    "Your colonies are quick to embrace genetic modifications that allow them to integrate into the surrounding ecosystem."

    Adaptive: +1 Food from unimproved tiles / tiles that provide Food / all tiles when covered by Miasma. Workers build improvements 10% faster.
    • Adapted Workforce: Grants Worker miasma immunity. +0.25 / 0.5 / 0.75 Health per Worker.

    "Your colonies understand the intricacies of biological systems. You know how to maximize growth utilizing the natural bounty of the planet."

    Sustainable: +2 / 4 / 6 Food from Plantations and Work Barges.
    • Urban Gardening: 10 / 20 / 30% of Food retained after a city grows.

    Political

    "Your colonies value its lands very highly and while it may be generous for you, the world knows how hard it is to assault your lands."

    Territorial: Enemies suffer 5 / 10 / 15% Strength penalty in your territory. +1 / 2 / 3 Health and Diplomatic Capital from Strategic Resources.
    • Pioneer Initiative: Colonist units cost 10 / 15 / 20% less production to build.

    "Your colonies are not afraid of interacting with the native fauna and have found ways of dealing with them while minimizing harm to both parties."

    Environmentalist: Alien Nests inside of your territory provide +5 / 10 / 15 Diplomatic Capital per turn. +1 Diplomatic Capital from Plantations, Paddocks, and Work Barges.
    • Caretaker Training: Alien relations return to neutral twice as fast. +1 / 2 / 3 Health from Alien Preserves.

    Military

    "The military of your colonies see the strength in the native life and have found ways to harness that ferocity for themselves."

    Predatory: Units heal for 10 / 20 / 30 HP when they kill a unit. Alien units under your control gain +15 / 30 / 45% Strength and Ranged Strength. + 1 / 2 / 3 Culture and Science from Alien Nests.
    • War Beast Pact: Every 25 turns alien units spawn at your Capital. (3 Wolf Beetles or Rippers / 3 Raptor Bugs or Sea Dragons / 2 Siege Worms or Krakens. You choose land or sea Aliens each time they spawn.

    "The military of your colonies values mobility and speed. The planet's terrain is not an obstacle to you; its an asset."

    Mobile: +10 / 30 / 50% Combat Strength when fighting in rough terrain. -25 / 50 / 75% Maintenance cost for for Roads and Magrails.
    • Swarm Logistics: The movement cost of your all terrain movement costs 1 for your Military Units. (DC/T cost per turn decreases with relationship level)

    Culture

    "Your colonies are greatly intrigued by the mysteries of the native life. And actively seek to understand and relate to the aliens species of the planet."

    Inspired: +2 Health and +2 / 3 / 4 Culture from Alien Preserves and Xeno Sanctuaries.
    • Planetary Insight: Alien nests provide +5 / 7.5 / 10% Science when worked by a City.

    "Your colonies view the planet with reverence and make an active effort to preserve and take care of the native flora and fauna."

    Conservationist: +1 / 2 / 3 Culture from Forests and +1 Culture to tiles adjacent to Forests. (Will stack.)
    • National Parks: Unimproved Forests provide +1 / 2 / 3 Health when worked.

    Industry

    "Your colonial scientists and engineers have become masters of the ranching, extracting, and using organic materials derived from the native fauna."

    Symbiotic: Improved Resilin, Chitin, Coral, and Shells provide +2 / 4 / 6 Production.
    • Organic Construction: +2 / 4 / 6 Production in your cities.

    "Considerable research and investment have been expended to eliminate negative impact of your colony's industry, recycling wastes and making your cities beautiful and prosperous."

    Clean: Reduces the effects of Negative Health and increases the effects of Positive Health by 25 / 50 / 75%.
    • Recycling Strategy: +0.15 / 0.2 / 0.25 Health in your cities per Building


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    Domestic

    "Your colony sponsors lavish monumental projects glorifying the best of Earth architecture and the human spirit, inspiring the citizens."

    Monumentalist: +3 / 5 / 7 Production and +2 / 3 / 4 Culture from Gold, Copper and Floatstone.
    • Architectural Renovation: +4 / 7 / 10 Culture in Cities with more than 5 buildings.

    "Your colonies excel in shaping this new planet in the image of Old Earth. Terraforming efforts have been refined beyond atmospheric needs into lush and beautiful gardens across your lands."

    Terraforming: +1 Food / +1 Production / +1 Culture from non-Terrascape tiles adjacent to Terrascapes. (Does not stack.)
    • Utopian Landscaping: +1 / 2 / 3 Culture on tiles adjacent to cities.

    Political

    "Preparedness is a value regarded highly by your colonial society. Other colonies cannot help but be impressed by the extent your infrastructure is kept up to date."

    Prudent: -20 / 30 / 40% Production and Energy costs for buildings that have been built in the Capital. +0.5 Diplomatic Capital per building in you Capital.
    • Infrastructure Investment: -10 / 20 / 30% production and energy costs for buildings.

    "Your colonies glorify both human heritage and human potential, giving it an inspiring and charismatic presence in world affairs."

    Idealistic: +2 / 4 / 6 Diplomatic Capital per 4 Virtues. Gain Science equal to 10 / 20 / 30% of your Culture.
    • Cultural Exchange Program: +20 / 40 / 60% Diplomatic Capital generation.

    Military

    "The military of your colonies is well versed in the art of defense. Your cities are veritable fortresses and will prove difficult to capture to any opponent."

    Entrenched: Military units receive +15% Melee Combat Strength when Defending. +1 / 2 / 3 Health from Rocket Batteries, Defense Perimeters, Surveillance Webs, Command Centers, and Node Banks.
    • Protective Measures: +4 / 8 / 12 City Defense from Rocket Batteries, Defense Perimeters, Surveillance Webs, Command Centers, and Node Banks.

    "The soldiers of your colonial Military are seen as noble guardians of humanity's legacy, increasing morale and public support for the military."

    Zealous: + 10% Strength and Ranged Strength when fighting aliens. Gain Culture from killing enemy Units equal to 3 / 6 / 9 times of their Strength.
    • Nest Salvage: Clearing out Alien Nests yields 5 / 10 / 15x the amount of Energy.

    Culture

    "Your colonies celebrate Old Earth and hold human history as paramount. Not a day goes by without your society remembering their distant homeworld."

    Nostalgic: +1 / 2 / 3 Culture and +10 / 20 / 30% Culture from Old Earth Relics and Terra Vaults.
    • Memorial Services: +1 / 2 / 3 Health from Old Earth Relics.

    "Your colonies place their faith in you. Your citizens are confident that together, under your leadership, they can become the epitome of civilization."

    Loyal: -15 / 20 / 25% Unhealth and +3 / 5 / 7 Culture in Cities connected to the Capital
    • Political Networking: -5 / 10 / 15% Science and Culture penalty from number of cities for new Technologies and Virtues.

    Industry

    "Your colonies have found ways of extracting the riches of this planet automatically. Freed from hard labor citizens choose to adorn themselves with ornament."

    Acquisitive: +1 Production per 6 / 5 / 4 Population in your cities. +2 / 4 / 6 Energy from improved Copper, Gold, Basalt and Silicon.
    • Material Doctrine: +10 / 15 / 20% Production cities working a Manufactory.

    "Your colonies take pride in the quality of their work. Your society views Industry not merely as production but rather as an art."

    Polished: +1 Production from Engineer and Artist specialists. Cities gain 15 / 30 / 45% of their Culture as Production.
    • Craftsmanship Tradition: Cities with a Trade route gain +1 / 2 / 3 Production


    Supremacy

    Spoiler :
    Domestic

    "Your colonies desire to be on the cutting edge. They boldly seek out the knowledge and means to construct marvels of science."

    Experimental: -10 / 20 / 30% Production cost when constructing a Wonder. +10 / 20 / 30% science in cities with a Wonder.
    • Prototype Augmentations: +5 / 7.5 / 10% to all yields in your Capital.

    "Your colonies seek to exist in the realm of technology. Cybernetic augmentations, robotic bodies, and virtual realities are the norm for your society."

    Cybernetic: Specialist provide +1 Science / 2 Science/ 0.5 Health. (+1 Science at Tier 1. +2 Science at Tier 2. +2 Science and +0.5 Health at Tier 3.)
    • Colonial Hypercomputers: Specialists provide +1 Science. (DC/T cost per turn decreases with relationship level)

    Political

    "Professionals in your colony constantly and eagerly explore new possibilities as technology advances. Your insight into the sciences is valued by domestic and foreign citizens alike."

    Analytical: +3 / 5 / 7 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched. +1 Science for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. (Does not stack.)
    • Investigative Research Agreement: -15 / 20 / 25% Science cost towards researching leaf technologies.

    "Augmentations have reduced your colony's traditional human needs, allowing for a prosperous existence that may appear spartan at first glance."

    Austere: Cities gain Production equal to 15 / 25 / 35% of their Energy. Specialists provide +1 Diplomatic Capital.
    • Efficiency Upgrades: Gain 10 / 20 / 30% additional Energy. (Your global energy total.)

    Military

    "The military of your colonies is most effective when uplinked to your satellite network. Your units and your citizens kept aware via a near continual stream of data."

    Networked: +10 / 20 / 30% combat Strength for Military units inside friendly orbital coverage. -5 / 10 / 15% Unhealth in cities within satellite coverage.
    • Command Nexus: Cities gain +3 / 5 / 7 Orbital Coverage.

    "Equipment and robotic units for your colonial military has been streamlined to be easy and inexpensive to maintain, freeing up energy for other uses."

    Optimized: +10% Combat Strength when fighting in your own borders. -15 / 30 / 45% Unit Maintenance cost.
    • Streamlined Engineering: -10 / 20 / 30% Production cost for Military units.

    Culture

    "Your colonies are quick to envision and develop new uses for emerging technologies. Your society is always eager to pursue the next scientific breakthrough."

    Visionary: +2 Energy / +2 Culture / +2 Science from Feedsite Hubs, Holosuites, CEL Cradles, and Optical Surgeries.
    • Inventor's Fair: +1 / +2 / +3 Scientist, Artist, and Trader specialist slots your Capital.

    "Your colonies see value in utility and dedicate their efforts to ensuring all their systems are capable of handling any project with ease."

    Utilitarian: Cities generate +4 / 8 / 12% more of all yields.
    • Power Conservation Algorithm: -15 / 30 / 45% Building maintenance cost.

    Industry

    "Your colonies are quick to invest resources gained by increasing production and efficiency to further advance production and efficiency."

    Developmental: Cities gain Food equal to 15 / 25 / 35% of their Production. +1 Production from Mines, Manufactories, and Firaxite Mines.
    • Enhanced Fabricators: +10 / 25 / 40% Worker Speed

    "The majority of your colonial workforce is comprised of autonomous machines, robots, and drones that make each city a hub of productivity."

    Autonomous: +2 Energy to Generators / +1 Food to Farms / +1 Production to Mines.
    • Independent Systems: +4 Energy / +2 Food / +2 Production in every city.


    Thanks:

    Special Thanks to Galgus for his collaborative efforts!
     
  2. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    I would not hardlock it that much, but maybe considering affinity level requirements for some traits could be interesting.
     
  3. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    I want to see how the new affinity wheel bonuses work because right now it just feels wrong that you can get every perk from every affinity. The inclusion of the Hybrids throws more confusion into the mix. This concept is very much a first draft. But the intent was to emphasize some of the aspects of the Affinities and let players create a more personalized vision of Affinity

    The issue that I was running into while drafting was that I think the players should have time to get through some of the base traits before delving into the Affinity ones. Level 6 is when an affinity becomes dominant if I'm not mistaken. Though I admit that it might be too late. Making a scaling affinity requirement is probably better, but I was failing at coming up with an simple yet elegant solution. I figured it would be better to show what I had then wrack my brain trying to come up with the "best possible" system before sharing.
     
  4. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
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    I like this system as a way to differentiate gameplay based on affinity, something that is sorely needed to make the gameplay more interesting and the setting more immersive.

    Though I worry that it may be difficult to create good trade-offs with the options while preserving a solid affinity theme.

    I assume that hybrid affinities would simply choose between traits of both affinities for the five slots?

    Also, would buying a trait be constrained by one's affinity?

    Anyway, these are my thoughts on the bonuses.
    _____________________

    Harmony
    ________________

    Adaptive - Good to tie Harmony in with Miasma and native resources solidly, incredibly strong. Worker speed could be tied to the contract.

    Sustainable - Personally I'd shift the Hybridized Crops contract to be this one's primary and make it stronger, to have either more food everywhere or a ton of food in cities with the right resources. The current bonus could be the contract, called Urban Gardening.
    ____________________________

    Territorial - This feels like it could be stronger, with more health and perhaps culture for Strategic Resources in a scaling system.

    Environmentalist - Oh, I love giving Harmony reason to keep nests in their territory. Well done.
    ___________________

    Predatory - Good to see an Alien focused trait and an expansion of heal on kill. The Alien units under control could be the other trait. Maybe the Contract could give the other player a Siege Worm or Kraken?

    Mobile - I think this just needs a bonus in rough terrain and Miasma to work well, playing on the guerrilla warfare theme.
    ____________

    Inspired - Solid building bonus. Perhaps Planetary Insight could give Culture from Alien Nests.

    Conservationist - Love giving Harmony a reason to care about Forests. The contract could be called National Parks and give culture to unimproved tiles, perhaps.
    ______________

    Symbiotic - I like the basic resource theme for Harmony. Perhaps the contract could be renamed Organic Construction, granting a flat production bonus in cities.

    Clean - This one feels lackluster to me. Maybe it could give some bonus production dependent on high health levels. The contract could be called Recycling Initiative and grant some health per building.
    _____________
    ___________

    Purity
    ____________
    _____________

    Preservationist - I might rename this to Monumental, focusing on beautiful architecture inspired by the past. It could grant percent a Culture and Production bonus from Wonders. The contract could be Renovation, giving a flat Culture bonus from Wonders.

    Terraforming - I like this idea, though I worry that both boosting Terrascape yields and making them cost less may phase out other improvements - unless the bonus to non-terrascape improvements was stronger.
    ________________

    Prudent - Fits this theme of expanding on what has been done in the capital. The contract could be called City Planning, giving some production when constructing buildings.

    Idealistic - Could be +1 Production for every 4 Culture generated in each city. Contract gives a small percent boost to Culture generation.
    _________________________

    Entrenched - I'd change this one to while defending personally, which has precedence in Purity. Protective Measures fits well.

    Lustrative - Personally I'd amp the culture bonus up to 10x Alien combat strength - fun stuff from my mod experience. As of now it would rarely matter. The contract is good, though I may rename it Nest Salvage.
    _________________________________

    Nostalgic - Great fit.

    Nationalistic - Perhaps doubles the bonuses of one's Sponsor trait, with a similar contract? It would focus on the sponsor's specific history rather than general nostalgia.
    _________________________________

    Acquisitive - Good for Purity's focus on terran development.

    Automative - The name could indicate trying to maximize free time rather than production with more automated processes. Contract could be called Time Saving, giving a small Health bonus from trade routes.
    ________
    _____________

    Supremacy
    _____________
    ________

    Experimental - Good theme. I may rename the contract to Research Agreement, giving a small amount of Science from trade routes.

    Cybernetic - I love the theme of this one as well. Colonial Hypercomputers could, maybe, give a little Science per specialist.
    ____________

    Analytical - +1/ +1.5/ +2 Science from Specialists. Contract - Research Agreement - +1/ +1.5/ +2 Science from Science specialists.

    Austere - +2/ +4/ +6 Energy from Specialists. Contract - Efficiency Evaluations - +2/ +4/ +6 Energy from Trader specialists.
    __________________________

    Networked - +5%/ +10%/ +15% Combat Strength for units under a Satellite. Command Nexus - +3/ 5/ 7 Orbit Coverage from Cities.

    Optimized - -10%/ -20%/ -30% Production costs for units. Contract - Refined Engineering - -10%/ -20%/ -30% unit maintenance.
    ____________________________

    Utilitarian - Works well, fits the big city theme.. Contract - Urban Planning - +5 Energy in cities with 10 or more buildings.

    Autonomous - Good for the uncaring about the environment theme. Perhaps Algorithm could give +2 Energy per city, via optimizing systems?
     
  5. Sniperian

    Sniperian Chieftain

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    This would at least make a nice mod concept! though I wouldn't mind it in the base game either way.
     
  6. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    Noted. I definitely share that concern. There needs to be big enough incentive for each choice.

    Unless someone has a better suggestion I've been operating on the assumption of "Yes" to the both of those questions.

    I'm basically taking any and all ideas. I want to at least get something in every field and then work from there. Many are from or derived from our previous conversation.

    __________________________________________________

    HARMONY

    Spoiler :
    Sure! I'll change that.

    I'm worried about loading up so much culture on everything, I think

    Environmentalist is perhaps my favorite out of any of the Harmony ideas. This one came naturally (no pun intended) which is probably why I like it so much. Although I have to say that haven't sold myself on the Agreement.

    I'm a bit fond of having the Strength to aliens under your command. It has synergy with the Environmental bonus. I'm not sure how giving players aliens units would work. A system would have to been created. For Mobile, I'm still debating the what that means in terms of gameplay.

    I'm more inclined to say Science from nests instead of Culture. Its stronger but it might give other players that may even be Purity or Supremacy some incentive to not wipe out the nest.

    No argument about Clean. It was meant as a nod to Alpha Centauri, but.... bleh. I like the idea of the health from buildings, but I'm not sold on the name.


    __________________________________________________

    PURITY

    Spoiler :
    I like the idea of Monumentalist, but I think the effects would be more situational than that of the Terraforming trait, depending on how your game is going. But I think you're right, about the Terrascapes. If you get the Utopian Landscaping agreement from another Purity Sponsor and you have this Trait yourself, it could get out of hand very quickly. I need to find an alternative.

    I'm not sure I agree about the tie between the word Prudent and building what the capital has. Wise sure, but prudent? I don't think my personal connotation matches. I'll change it to what you've suggested for now.

    I wanted to put on something different for the Entrenched, but defense just makes too much sense for Purity. The culture value is probably way too conservative. Doesn't that mean killing a Kraken would give 520 culture. x10 isn't bad for basically everything besides the top dogs of Alien units. Whatever, I requires investment to get to it should be okay.... should. I tried to go for a bit more zealous name here, but it does feel out of place.

    Memorial Services was one that felt really natural. I think its simple but elegant and flavorful. I see issues with the Nationalistic idea. With the incomparables of the Character Traits which can already be advanced, I don't know how this would would work out. Too many variables for my taste.

    I'm debating if the Craftsmanship Agreement should be a percent increase to the trade route or a flat one. Automative might invoke too much of a Supremacy vibe, though I do understand what you're saying.


    __________________________________________________

    SUPREMACY

    Spoiler :
    I trimmed back the version you suggested before, it was just a bit too much. I think there are more wonder techs with BERT so it would be very potent. Making Prototype Augmentations mirror the Purity Craftsmanship seems like it would be interesting. Science is such a dangerous yield in Civ games. On the other hand, BE specialists are on the pitiful side.

    Similar to the Terrascape issue, I see there being issues with stacking these bonuses on Specialists.

    The combat strength under satellite coverage is an interesting perk. But this is basically a duplicate of the Integrated perk from the Base Traits. It Might need more oomph. Command Nexus is the Aspirational Trait on steroids. So much orbital coverage, but I like it. Ironically I think the Optimized ideas are nice but bland.

    I maneuvered some of the stuff around, I think what I've put might fit the themes better.


    __________________________________________________

    Thank you so much for your feedback. As usual its fantastic.
     
  7. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
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    If we go with affinity limiting contracts that can be bought, perhaps it could use an increasing cost system.

    Relations with the sponsor in question could provide a discount or cost increase in purchasing from them as well as how closely one's ratio of affinity matches up with theirs.
    ____________________________

    In retrospect, the food from miasma not scaling with upgrade may be a problem.

    Is it feasible for it to scale with partial values like .5 / 1 / 1.5 food?
    ______________________________

    Good point on overusing culture, though I do think the health should at least scale to 1 / 2 / 3.

    Its fun to work in diplomatic capital into the traits, though I wonder if it could or should be used more broadly.

    Perhaps the agreement could give a bonus on Alien nests to other colonies?
    __________________________________

    Honestly I'm worried that the Alien strength boost may not be enough to make them useful come late game.

    On a similar note I'm not sure how useful a contract to get an Alien would be, but it just sounds fun.

    With Mobile, I like to think of it in terms of Harmony using the environment to their advantage in a more mundane way than usual - moving through forests and such.
    _______________________________________

    Science works well for the Alien Nest contract, I probably overuse culture.

    There does need to be some focus on studying the Aliens rather than simply admiring them, after all.
    ________________________________

    Honestly I had trouble thinking of a fitting bonus for clean, and I'm not really that happy with the main bonus or the contract theme.

    For an alternate idea, perhaps the main bonus could give a 10% / 20% / 30% population growth bonus.

    For a new contract name, perhaps something like Pollution Mitigation.
    __________________________________
    __________________________________

    I like the theme of Monumentalist, but I'm not sure that the current bonus represents it well.

    As a somewhat random idea, perhaps all Domes connected to the capital by adjacency or other Domes could gain a Culture bonus, making a possible chain of domes.

    I kind of like how it potentially synergizes the with Supremacy wonder trait in Purity/ Supremacy, but the theme seems off.

    In my opinion, the Terraforming bonus should allow players to either make clusters of terrascapes or space them so that they are surrounded by non-terrascape improvements while keeping both viable relative to the other.

    To that end I think it would be best if it granted a larger non-stacking bonus to non-Terrascape adjacent tiles and a small, but stacking bonus for other Terrascapes without a maintenance reduction.
    _____________________________________

    Its kind of prudent to build on past successes rather than try something new and risky, though its admittedly not a perfect fit.

    Idealistic admittedly stems from my desire for Purity to have other yield bonuses for generating high amounts of culture.

    I'm curious as to what you think of it.
    ___________________________________________

    That sounds like a lot of culture, but you have to consider how relatively infrequent killing Aliens is relative to the number of "Next Turns", how high culture output gets later, and how high Virtue costs end up scaling to.

    Though my views may be distorted by strictly playing Marathon.

    The ritual name went a bit too far in my opinion, since Purity only seems to get starry eyed and poetic with human heritage.
    ___________________________________________

    Agreed, memorial service just fits the theme perfectly. Elegant and flavorful is a good goal to shoot for with design.

    I kind of agree that the Nationalistic trait may not always work out well, but at the same time I love the flavor of it and the dichotomy it makes with its counterpart.

    And in theory all of the sponsor bonuses are balanced against each other.
    ____________________________________________

    I'm a bit worried that Craftsmanship may be too strong as is with as many trade routes as there can be. Perhaps the value could be reduced or it could be made non-stacking with itself.

    I think the leisurely idea behind Automative works, but I agree that the word has some Supremacy implications.

    I considered Utopian, but it also isn't quite right and makes the other option sound bad.

    Perhaps Relaxed could be a better term?

    I wonder if a Science bonus for Culture would be better so as not to overlap with the Idealistic virtue, if some iteration of that is used.
    ________________
    _________________

    I'm kind of worried that Experimental may feel lackluster if it doesn't give a bonus for Wonders, though it may not be an issue with the ability to pay to swap.

    I'm not confident on the contracts, since as you said Science is a dangerous yield.

    BE specialists definitely need help, though it should be more comprehensive than an Affinity contract.
    _________________________

    This may have gone over the top, but its partially based on Specialists being weak in the base game.

    I also like the idea of Supremacy as the most specialist focused affinity.
    _____________________________

    Integrating Satellites into the battlefield feels very Supremacy in my opinion. Perhaps it could also give a small adjacent unit bonus?

    Aspirational feels rather tame in my opinion, and Affinity traits can afford to be strong.

    With Optimized I was thinking in terms of mass production, but it may either be too bland or not pushed enough.
    ___________________________

    I like the divide between wide vs tall for the Supremacy Industry slot now, and they both fit thematically.
    ______________
    _____________________________

    Always a pleasure discussing design with you.
     
  8. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Joined:
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    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    I don't know how the game reads tiles. I'll keep thinking about it.

    I don't know, but I think Environmentalist feels very appropriate.

    Meh-beh, the question is what would be most appropriate?

    According to the Wiki, these are the Strengths of the Alien units. Provided these could change with Rising Tide:

    Wolf Beetle: 8
    Raptor Bug: 14
    Drone: 12
    Manticore: 4
    Sea Dragon: 18
    Siege Worm: 48
    Kraken: 52

    So... I have no idea.

    Your idea for Mobile would kind of be like having the Civ V Drill promotion, which I find that amusing for some reason.

    You silly Purist, you.

    Clean is proving tough. If a population bonus was the perk then I think the Sustainable deal should change.


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    Its not a bad idea, I'm just trying to figure out how effective it is and maybe streamline the perk.

    Fair enough. The scaling should help alleviate some of that edge.

    Agreed, memorial service just fits the theme perfectly. Elegant and flavorful is a good goal to shoot for with design.

    Yes, but I think this one might cause some unpredictable snowballing.

    I forgot to factor in Hutama's agreement that can give you up to 3 more routes in your capital. This needs some kind of limit on it.

    I'll be honest, I'm stumped here.

     
  9. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
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    On Adaptive, if partial yields don't work perhaps the scaling bit could be a growth boost?
    _______________________________

    Perhaps the Environmentalist agreement could give Health or Culture?
    ______________________________________

    For Alien units to be useful in battle I think it would be best if Harmony could either buff them up somehow or combine them into Xeno Swarms. somehow.

    I think the Minuteman combat style from Civ 5 fits them well, moving quickly through rough terrain and fighting well in it.
    ___________________________________

    Hard to say on the Sustainable deal.

    Another direction could be some bonus for excess health - like Clean giving Culture for every point of extra health or maybe enhancing the high health bonuses.
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    Ideally Culture conversion perks should be strong when focusing on Culture with the other option for players who are not.
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    I play Civ 5 with various on-kill bonuses boosted in a similar manner, and aside a very fast progression early they tend to fall in line with more static yield generation.
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    Off the top of my head I'd be most worried about ARC with Nationalistic, though the numbers could be tweaked to balance between sponsors.

    I'm still hooked on its flavor.
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    Per trade route bonuses worry me somewhat because of how many there can be, and how they can be focused.
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    It kind of has Agency Supremacy / Purity connotations, but perhaps the word could be Attended, or perhaps Unburdened?

    More and more I'm thinking it should be a Science conversion bonus from Culture, symbolizing freeing up people's time to create and invent.

    Aquisitive's production bonus per city should probably scale at 2 / 4 / 6.
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    Perhaps Experimental could give a 10 / 20 / 30% boost to Science generation in cities with a wonder?

    Or perhaps a more tame 5 / 10 / 15%
    ________________

    I still think the Rocktopus belongs in Purity / Harmony with its background, so it may be hard for Supremacy to access.

    Mostly I was thinking they would use it with the Tacnet Hub or the bombardment Satellites.

    Or the civilian satellites on the defensive, I suppose.

    Personally I don't see how less potent traits with better deals would be balanced well.

    Other colonies benefit more from you, but you get diplomatic capital from it. Does that actually put you ahead?

    Ideally, in my opinion, all traits and contracts should be good.
     
  10. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    I've done a pass on the entire list of Traits and Agreements. I'm still trying to figure out what a the appropriate level of power is for the Affinity Traits while trying to make them appealing in their own ways.

    I'm struggling in making them some of these perks be useful in the setting of Rising Tide. Since sea gameplay varies greatly from land gamplay.

    I've also added small flavor lines to accompany each of the Traits in hopes of giving a little perspective on the mindset of each and how the society may look if they took on that trait.
     
  11. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I like the addition of flavor text both to improve the immersion and force some designer evaluation on how well the trait fits.

    With more stuff nailed down on a flavor level, I'll try to give more specific balance suggestions.

    For now I'll just cover Harmony, both because it is late and to focus feedback.

    I think +1 Food for all tiles with Miasma is a good power target to balance level three traits around.

    Which is to say I think Traits should be very strong to be able to compete with it.

    Its hard to really suggest good balance proposals for these, but some definitely feel like they are on different power levels.
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    With Adaptive, a potential way to make it scale could be Unimproved tiles/ Tiles that grant food/ All tiles grant +1 Food with Miasma.

    It's wordy, but players wouldn't really need to read it often.

    The building part feels a bit tacked on, like its only purpose is to introduce scaling.
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    With Sustainable I'm having some trouble thinking of exactly how many relevant basic resources are around to balance it with.

    It has some steep competition with Adaptive which can benefit anywhere.

    Theoretically a Sustainable city with three or four relevant basic resources should be a bit insanely taller than a random Adaptive city since many cities would not have the resources.

    With that in mind, though this sounds incredibly scary to me, perhaps the Plantation and Work Barge bonuses could be increased to +3 / +5 / +7 Food.

    I could be completely off here, but in my head I keep seeing a super-wide Adaptive dominating the relatively tall-focused Sustainable.
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    Territorial is giving me a similar uncertainty with how many strategic resource tiles there are.

    For a relatively simple change it may make more sense to change the enemy combat strength penalty in your territory to a boost for the player, symbolizing morale and local knowledge of the terrain.

    For a change I'm far less certain of, perhaps the Strategic Resource health could be reworked to a +1 Health from Strategic Resources / Organic Resources / All Resources.

    This would be a ton of health, but it would be easier to see it somewhat compete with the Harmony Domestic virtues like this.
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    I love the theme of Environmentalist, but I think it needs more power to compete with the target power level.

    I'd either amp up its bonus for Alien Nests while possibly tossing in some Culture or let it also give a bonus for Paddocks and Aliens within friendly territory.

    Of those though, I think Alien Nests should have the highest yields by far.
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    Taking a note from some of the announced traits, I think it would be best for Affinity military traits to also give some flavorful, but non-military bonus to balance out.

    I'm really not sure on how to do this, though.

    Perhaps Predatory's Alien buff could be replaced with the ability to upgrade leashed Aliens, and a Culture and Science bonus for each Alien under one's control.

    I have no idea what the values would need to be though - there would be a cap on the number of Aliens one can benefit from.

    It feels like the main Harmony military dichotomy is using the Aliens vs relying more on in-house troops.
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    On a similar line of thinking, perhaps Mobile could grant a small trade route boost in its second and third upgrades with the extra movement coming in the first.

    Would trade range or yield make sense if that concept makes sense?
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    Inspired seems fine as a per-city bonus with two buildings needed for investment in both flavor and power.

    The contract feels weak though given how sparse Nests are, though it's only a numbers issue.
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    Though I'm tempted to throw a health bonus in for the heck of it, Conservation also seems fine.

    It's just Culture, but it is *a* *lot* of Culture.
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    Symbiotic could potentially be reworked to mirror Sustainable for Paddocks.

    With that it could grant Paddocks and improved production-related sea resources +3 / +5 / +7 production.

    Somewhat unsure of what this would mean in Rising Tide, though there was some sort of Snail water resource that I think was tied to production.

    I think a more organic theme fits Symbiotic better.

    With that in mind, this is my attempt at a quote for it.

    "The scientists and engineers have become masters of the ranching, extraction, and use of native fauna-derived organic materials."
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    I love the theme of Clean, though I think the numbers are somewhat tame for what is, at Utopian health, mostly just a +20% boost to Production, Culture, and Science.

    Again, I'll attempt a quote.

    "Considerable research and investment have been expended to eliminate negative impact of your colony's industry, recycling wastes and making your cities beautiful and prosperous."
     
  12. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Joined:
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    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    You're right with this. The building was me mentally testing to see what scaling would look like on this perk. Making the food progressively better sounds like a much stronger idea thematically. I'll try it out for now.

    Do you think splitting the difference and making it 2 / 4 / 6 be enough?

    No argument here either.

    I could see +1 or 2 DC for Paddocks. Not sure about Aliens. I have reservations with that since they "embargo" your tiles. But it would introduce the question of whether nor not to build the Ultrasonic Fence.

    The idea of directly upgrading aliens is interesting, but I think it goes beyond the current scope of this concept. I think that would require a total rework of how aliens work mechanically.

    Should the Military Traits affect the more civilian components? Right now, I don't think so.

    Yeah, that definitely needs to be bumped up. Its meant to provide incentive to not wipe out the alien nests even if you're not going Harmony. Not quite sure what the sweet spot for the yield should be.



    I can definitely agree to that. I think Coral can be but into that category as well. I know it provides Culture and not Production when improved, but I think it fits pretty well with harnessing natural materials.

    I think that's very fitting. I might reword it a bit but I like it.

    I agree it needs more. I've punched it up by quite a bit, hopefully its more in line. Given that it affects positive and negative Health the way its currently written, hopefully its in line. That's a pretty good quote. I'll put that in as well.
     
  13. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
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    I think Adaptive scaling on tiles it effects should work out with players eventually wanting to upgrade it fully.
    _____________

    With the competition with Adaptive and limits on how many relevant resources there are, I think the 3 / 5 / 7 bonus is better for balance.

    It feels very high, but I think it is appropriate without playtests to go on.
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    What is your opinion on expanding the territorial bonus to other resources to replace its current scaling?

    I feel like it either needs a higher health yield on the strategic resources or it needs to work with more resources.

    Either way I like the focus on Harmony caring about native resources.
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    Good point on the Aliens for Environmentalist.

    Those DC yields seem low to me, but I can't say anything definitive on them since I don't know how much DC contracts and traits cost.
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    Agreed that upgrading Aliens would be a major overhaul, but I think it would be necessary to keep them relevant mid to late game.

    For a Predatory contract, I'm still a bit obsessed with the idea of buying a Siege Worm or Kraken. It may be impractical, but I'd call it "War beast contract."
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    On military traits affecting civilian components, many of the announced military traits already do that.

    I fear that if they literally only help militarily they will always be a last pick unless the player is a total warmonger or is engaged in a serious war that the AI is unlikely to field.

    I'd rather not see military traits be the absolute last picks for most players.
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    The yield for not wiping out Nests for players who aren't Harmony would need to be fairly large, since they are infrequent and building a Xeno Well on the site could be tempting later on.
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    Corral definitely fits as a natural production material, but I'm slightly worried it could come off as, well, unenvironmental.

    Then again, maybe the Harmonists found some way to stimulate the growth of corral to essentially grow building material quickly.
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    Perhaps the Clean contract could be called "Recycling Drive".

    Not sure on it, mostly just brainstorming.
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    Purity
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    I've been pretty hit and miss with it, but I have a new idea for Monumentalist.

    I thought it could be focused on the mineral resources as aesthetically pleasing building materials.

    + 4 / + 7 / +10 Culture from Gold, Copper, and Floatstone.

    Contract - Architectural Renovation - +4 / +7 / +10 Culture in cities with five or more buildings.

    "Your colony sponsors lavish monumental projects glorifying the best of Earth architecture and the human spirit, inspiring the citizens."
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    Energy has be a bit wary on the Terraforming trait, since I think compensating for its maintenance costs makes it feel less unique.

    Would +1 Culture / +1 Food / +1 Culture work instead?

    Thematically it keeping it focused on Food and Culture seems strongest, though the Terrascape itself has Production from harvestable building materials.

    Perhaps Utopian Landscaping could give +1 / +2 / +3 Culture to tiles adjacent to cities.

    This is my alternate quote suggestion.

    "Terraforming efforts have been refined beyond atmospheric needs into lush and beautiful gardens across your lands."
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    To add scaling to Prudent, it could be a 20 / 30 / 40% discount.

    The contract could be called Infrastructure Investment, granting 10 / 20 / 30% lower production and energy costs for buildings.

    "Your colony has standardized and perfected established best practices in construction, increasing industrial efficiency."
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    I like the change to Idealistic, though I think it should be more focused on the virtues component.

    I'm still potshotting with DC values, but perhaps something like +3 / +5 / +7 Diplomatic Capital for every 4 virtues.

    Not sure on the contract, perhaps Cultural Exchange Program, giving +20 / +30 / +40% Diplomatic Capital generation.

    "Your colony glorifies both human heritage and human potential, giving it an inspiring and charismatic presence in world affairs."

    (I tried.)
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    On the note of giving military traits other bonuses, I'd let both the trait and the contract give a relatively minor +1 / +2 / +3 Health from Rocket Batteries, Defense Perimeters, Surveillance Webs, Command Centers, and Node Banks.
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    To try a new name, perhaps the other perk could be called Zealous.

    "The colony's Soldiers are seen as noble guardians of humanity's legacy, increasing morale and public support for the military."

    It could grant Culture equal to 5X / 10X / 15X enemy combat strength when an enemy unit is killed and a +10 / 15 / 20% Melee Combat Strength when Attacking.

    The contract could be Propaganda Campaign, giving the culture component of the bonus.
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    Nostalgic works well, but I'd probably boost the Culture bonus to +10 / +20 / +30%.
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    With Zealous, I think the Lustrative bonuses work better as the military trait.

    I still think that Nationalistic could be the better trait as detailed above.

    It seems as if it would balance out well if the Sponsor bonuses are balanced against each other.

    "Your colony emphasizes and glorifies their specific cultural heritage on Earth, providing a strong sense of cultural unity."
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    I like the change to Acquisitive and how it could stack with Monumental for industrial and aesthetic applications.

    The rulers of old bit in the quote feels a bit off to me though, this is my version.

    "Your colony places much value in a strong work ethic and ambitiously pursues a better life through industry."

    I think that Refined's current contract may fit this trait better, though it may need to be renamed.

    Perhaps something like "Management Coordination" to symbolize sharing workplace methods and culture, though it sounds a bit off.
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    I think we have different views on what Culture to Production conversion symbolizes.

    I view it as a focus on automation of the bulk of labor so that the knowledge and imagination of the colony matter more in its industry than raw work ethic.

    The ideal dichotomy with Acquisitive, in my opinion, would be maximizing production vs maximizing leisure.

    The numbers also seem a bit small, I'd bump it up to 20 / 30 / 40%

    With that theme Relaxed may be a better name, and this quote would fit that theme better.

    "Your colony values maximizing leisure over maximizing production, with a new relaxed way of life made possible by automation."

    Perhaps the contract could be Automative Investment, giving other cities Cities gain 20 / 30 / 40% of their Culture as Production as well.

    (Other colonies wouldn't be likely to benefit as much because they could not afford to build their infrastructure around a bonus that might go away.)
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    I'll comment on Supremacy later, it has quite a few blank spaces to cover.
     
  14. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    This entire idea is like one massive theory. I'm mostly nervous about the use of Weather Control satellites.

    I'm not exactly sure, but the I enjoy the integrated motif that is starting to emerge with Harmony.

    Frankly, we just need more footage. I will most likely update this when Rising Tide gets released.

    The idea of harnessing the fury of colossal aliens sounds like a lot fun. I didn't want to include earlier because I wasn't sure how to make an Agreement that made sense. But I've been giving it more thought and have an idea:

    I was thinking that maybe there could be a timer. Like every "x" number of turns an alien unit spawns at your capital. And you can choose if you want land or sea aliens (so you don't have land units stuck on islands on an Atlantean map).

    The strength could go up with relationship. So maybe it starts a trio of wolf beetles/rippers goes up to a trio of raptor bugs/sea dragons up to a pair of siegeworms/krakens.

    I definitely understand what you mean. I'm mostly a builder and am not very experienced in the military aspects. However, I'm very aware of the benefits of having a defensive military. It definitely requires more thought.

    Maybe a percentage bonus might be more attractive?

    That's what I was thinking. Maybe they found a way to take a polyps and force them to grow. They're cultivating it somehow already.


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    So. Much. Culture. I do empathize with the cultural drive of Purity, but I feel like its starting to stack up too much. I can see "some from everywhere" but we probably need to curve it somewhere. I think maybe for Monumentalist the bonus should be split between Culture and Production. I think the Contract can stay the same.

    If that's the case I feel like it should just be +1 Food / +1 Production / +1 Culture. Just to give the ability a bit more diversity.

    I think that Agreement sounds pretty cool. That's some hefty incentive to be on good terms with a Purity sponsor.

    Unless someone can think of something better, I think this is the best course of action for the time being. With the flavor text helping it out, I think it can be justified to players.

    I actually think I prefer that. I really want to see some more math on DC.

    Again, Military probably needs to be rethought as a whole. I'm reluctant to stack that much health in a city from buildings, no matter how utopian it could be.

    I was avoiding that type of wording because I used the term Fanatical for Supremacy to go along with their religious motif, though it could most certainly apply to any of the affinities when you think about it. I agree with the sentiment and think Lustrative could be moved to Military. But that leaves a gap in Culture.

    I can agree with that.

    Its true that it fits well with what Purity stands for, but I just can't bring myself to do it. If Purity is the only affinity that gets to boost the power of sponsor Trait bonuses it would impose an imbalance in the system that I am not willing to deal with. I think it would be too risky.

    Well, I am a filthy Harmonist so I'm not familiar with the exact imagery with which you Purists view yourselves. Forgive my ignorance. :lol:

    Anyway,

    Yeah, we definitely have differing opinion in how to divide this category. I was treating Acquisitive as an automated industry where the citizens value goods and live in luxury. A sort of combination of your two suggestions. With Refined I was thinking many citizens choose to be hands on, where workshops and apprenticeship are a thing. Perhaps this would be better reflected in a specialist focus.


    This is part of the reason I wanted to make this concept. Players may differ in opinion of what the societies of the different affinities can look like.

    Here we see the juggling act of making different gameplay and storytelling decisions.
     
  15. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
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    Honestly I think the Weather Controller and Orbital Fabricator satellites shouldn't create resources: the yield boost is enough.

    Letting them spawn resources kind of trivializes the importance of settling in resource rich locals and gives excessive city building potential.

    But aside from removing that, I'm not sure on the balance.

    (And it also makes no sense that Supremacy has the Weather Controller. Orbital Fabricator I can kind of see.)
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    I like the idea of a timer Alien spawn for the Predatory contract.
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    Yeah, hard to say on DC as of now.
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    A defensive military typically doesn't need other bonuses to work.

    Things like the Honor tree in Civ 5 were only ever taken by hardcore warmongers - and sometimes they weren't even ideal for warmongering.

    In my experience it is more fun to let such bonuses give additional perks to fighting, to help the civilian game in a proactive manner.
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    So long as the percent boost was only for that particular city, I think it would be fine for the Alien Nest contract.
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    Drastically speeding up growth is definitely in Harmony's corner.
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    Purity
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    I was thinking of splitting the Monumental bonus between Culture and Production, but in the end I thought culture would be more flavorful.

    You may be right that a split between the two is better - helps differentiate it from every other Purity culture bonus.

    I basically like the idea of Purity having ways to generate absurd amount of culture with an optional culture conversion path for those who want to focus on it.
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    I like that idea for Terraforming.

    Production makes sense as both useful materials and an environment better suited to Purity industry.
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    Agreed, we need more information on DC.
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    In the defense of Health on Defense buildings, they cost a pretty penny of production and don't do anything most of the time.

    Flavor-wise it follows the same logic as the Might Public Security virtue - stability through safety.
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    Fanatical doesn't really seem to fit Supremacy - if anything they are close-minded and rather cold to anyone not viewing their path as best, not passionate for it.

    At least that's my take on Supremacy - I tend to view the affinity as rather utilitarian and detached.
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    I still think Nationalistic can be balanced if the sponsor bonuses are balanced.

    It only really imposes an imbalance if they aren't balanced...which may be the case, but isn't optimal.
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    Xenos fi- I mean, I'm happy to educate you on the philosophy of true humans.
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    Personally I view Acquisitive and Relaxed as both utilizing automation, but with a significant philosophical difference behind it.

    Acquisitive views it as a way to boost production beyond what was previously possible, increasing the output of every worker.

    Relaxed sees it as a way to minimize the time people need to work to maximize free time for other pursuits.

    Both are right and both uses overlap, but they choose to focus on different things.

    I don't really think hands on workshops make sense for large scale production in this setting - a hobby, sure, and maybe a way to carry on old cultural crafts, but not an industry.
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    Most of the time I'm just thinking in terms of fitting flavor with this system - it is much more complicated to balance than a single progression system.

    Though having options does help players define their colony on their terms.
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    Supremacy
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    I still think a bonus for cities with a wonder would help Experimental.

    Even a small non-scaling one like 15% could work well.
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    Cybernetic works well as a bonus, but if you wanted to it would be easy to flavorfully focus the trait on specialists.
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    I guess the dichotomy between Analytical and Austere is looking into new possibilities constantly vs trying to maximize efficiency with a utilitarian mindset.

    With that in mind I might go for a science vs energy approach.

    So starting with Analytical - +1 Science for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. +3 / +5 / +6 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched.

    Contract - Research Agreement - 15 / 20 / 25% discount on researching leaf technologies.

    "Professionals in your colony constantly and eagerly explore new possibilities as technology advances."
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    Austere - +2 Energy for all non-Array, non-Node tiles adjacent to Arrays and Nodes. +3 / +5 / +6 Diplomatic Capital for every seven Technologies researched.

    Contract - Efficiency Upgrades - +20 / +30 / +40% energy generation.

    If these themes overlap too much, perhaps Analytical can be focused on Science for Arrays and Satellites.

    "Augmentations have reduced your colony's traditional human needs, allowing for a prosperous uplinked existence that may appear spartan at first glance."
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    This wouldn't make Supremacy popular, but perhaps having satellites over or near other cities could boost covert operations with this trait.
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    Optimized seems nice, as it caters to mass production from the other direction of being easy to maintain.

    "Equipment and robotic units for your colonial military has been streamlined to be easy and inexpensive to maintain, freeing up energy for other uses."

    This feels like it could go to -20 / -30 / -40% maintenance cost.
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    Perhaps Visionary's contract could boost Science and Culture some?

    Think Tanks - -5 / -10 / -15% research and virtue costs.

    "The colony is quick to envision and develop new uses for emerging technologies."
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    Fanatical feels kind of off to me for previously stated reasons.

    Instead I'd suggest a dichotomy based on maximizing production vs looking into new applications for technology.

    Developmental - +1 / +2 / +3 Production and Energy from improved sources of Copper, Gold, Titanium, and Firaxite.

    "The colony is quick to invest resources gained by increasing production and efficiency to further advance production and efficiency."
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    Industry - Utilitarian seems solid.
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    To be unoriginal, perhaps this could work as the Autonomous upgrade.

    Independent Systems - +1 Energy / +1 Food / +1 Production in every city.
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    I just realized there isn't an Energy / Production conversion to Food trait in Supremacy.

    I kind of want that to emphasize moving away from natural bodies, but I'm not sure where.
     
  16. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    Then we ride into combat with the forces of nature on our side! *[queues Xenomancer]

    Don't get me wrong I totally understand the point, I'm just unsure how to implement it. In real life, military innovations get funneled into civilian applications eventually. Maybe if civilians got a +1 to movement as well? That would put it on par with a sponsor that built the Master Control and would make for some extremely expeditious Colonists.

    Yes, I think the city would have to work the tile to get the bonus.


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    I think its a compelling methodology, we just need to find ways to implement that thought design goal.

    Stack this Terraforming Trait with the Ecoscaping Prosperity Virtue and Terrascapes become very worthwhile improvements.

    No no, I get it. I think that +15 Health from buildings that make the city harder to capture is a bit much . I think I'll boost the defensive strength scaling and make the health some flat +1. That way each one can take care of a pop and the military effect more potent. Though I could be persuaded to go +2...

    Basically its just a can of worms that I am NOT willing to open. Its beyond my knowledge base and I would not like to see something that reminds me of the Alien Immune Explorers.

    Fair enough, but I think that there should be a more clear separation in this case. I'm not convinced that when placed next to each other they are compelling enough.


    Supremacy

    Spoiler :
    I'm wondering if its better to help a player get a wonder or reward having already completed a wonder. I don't disagree, I'm just still thinking about the usefulness.

    I considered that, but I was unsure if it should focus on a particular type of specialist, if it should be all specialist.

    The reason I've held up on the Experimental is because I feel like Cybernetic would be the better choice in most cases. Though I suppose you could easily just switch between the two... the way I wrote the system there's not really a penalty for switching focus within the same affinity only if you go to another affinity. Maybe I should put in a "pause period". But at the same time I don't want to hinder the player that much.

    I think that definitely fits into the notions and agenda of Supremacy.

    Hot damn, that's one hell of an solid perk. I like the entire thing. I would make it so that the science does not stack so as to avoid obscene amounts of science. No Super Science Space equivalent of Moai!

    For Supremacy more than either Harmony or Purity, I like the idea of the same sources giving different effects. The divergent likeness here that doesn't bug me in the same way that the Purity Industry ideas do. It just feel more their speed.

    Tempting... very tempting. Networked needs something else, that's for sure.

    I agree. I made it start 5% lower and scale 5% higher, it just makes those level ups a smidge more potent.

    I don't think Elodie would be appreciative of cloning one of her personal agreement options. :lol: But I admit it would be appropriate.

    When I think about it, all affinities possess elements of fanaticism. I still think Supremacy has that edge, after all their entire military is evokes religious imagery. But perhaps it would be better to look elsewhere for gameplay elements.

    The names have similar connotations but different definitions. Again, for Supremacy it doesn't bother me for whatever reason. I'm just happy to fill up the list.

    I think to fill the fields I'll use this for now and see if I can find a more engaging deal. (Ironic word choice for Autonomous.)

    You're right. That seems to have slipped through the system. Supremacy needs more work.


    We have Harmony and Purity covered between the two of us. What we need is a Supremacist to help out! :mischief:
     
  17. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I don't think +1 movement for civilian units would make any meaningful difference, though I play marathon where unit movement rates to overall progress is in a sane proportion.

    I think it makes things more fun and helps vary playstyles to make military traits a proactive way to boost one's colony beyond simply conquering.
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    I like how the current Terraforming trait makes Terrascapes very strong without invalidating other tile improvements due to their supportive nature.
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    It sounds like a lot of health on defensive buildings, but it has strong competition and requires four buildings per city to maximize - some of which are quite expensive.
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    I don't see how Nationalistic is reminiscent of the strange and imbalanced alien immune explorers.

    I think I'm generally more willing to suggest crazy designs so long as it fits.
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    Making a utopia for humanity is a big part of Purity's vision, and automation is a natural part of that.

    I think it works as different philosophies to automation - maximizing production vs the kind of future the producers of Wall-E apparently hate.
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    I think part of my issue with get a wonder bonuses is how some are lackluster and how building wonders is relatively infrequent.

    If there were a lot more Wonders to choose from, like my heavily modded Civ 5 games, I'd be happier with it.
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    Cybernetic works decently as-is, and I suppose keeping traits out of the Specialist system allows them to be buffed in other ways.
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    Agreed, the science shouldn't stack.

    Moai science would probably be game-breaking.
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    Looking back on Austere, I think the Diplomatic Capital boost from Technology may not be fitting.

    Perhaps that could be Analytical's think while Austere could grant a +15% / +25% / +35% boost to Energy or somesuch.

    It would help differentiate the two somewhat.
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    I agree on the military changes.
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    Ah, I didn't realize that was one of Elodie's options - hadn't checked.

    To differentiate it could be focused on science or culture, possibly.

    I'd lean towards culture.
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    I agree that the names could be used for similar things with some differences in implication and outlook.

    I think that's a decent design for some traits, having similar views with some differences in values.
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    I agree that Independent Systems could use something a little more, well, creative.

    I'm not entirely sure of where to put energy/ production to Food in Supremacy, though I think it would be good for them to compete with Science generation, since it seems strong enough to make a choice.

    Energy conversion could possibly replace the Austere bonus.

    Perhaps it would scale at Cities gain Food equal to 30% of their Energy output / ratio increased to 50% / +1 Energy from non-Node tiles adjacent to Nodes. (non-stacking.)

    Developmental could potentially have its bonus replaced with Production conversion.

    Cities gain Food equal to 30% of their Production output / ratio increased to 50% / +1 Production from Mines, Manufatories, and Firaxite Mines.
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    It would be nice to get another opinion, particularly from that kind of player.
     
  18. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Messages:
    605
    Location:
    Honolulu, HI
    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    I understand I'm just not sure where emphasis can be placed to make it worthwhile. I don't think of much where mobility is blatantly useful in civilian affairs.


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    I feel this version is more organic to the playstyle. Its gives you the same types of yields as the Terrascape. It also discourages just spamming out the improvement. I think its pretty good.

    I think I'll increase it to +2 Health. The defending strength I put on there isn't that strong (though I think I will buff it). The Health helps counter the Unhealth from occupied cities. At the same time, if you capture a city with a lot of defense buildings, you will come out ahead of the Health penalty which lets you support a larger city.

    There was zero reason to not dip 1 level into Purity for the Explorer immunity. I fear the alternate option in this category would not be competitive with it, unless it was really heavily weighted. Plus the effects would vary greatly due to multiplicative effects. I think it would just be best to find another option.

    Wall-E was hilarious satire in my opinion. I don't think Purity would have that problem because they will not forget about our homeworld, where the people on the ship in Wall-E forgot (Arshia would look at them with scorn.)

    This category basically needs its own brainstorming session.


    Supremacy

    Spoiler :
    I'm not sure what course of action to take here. No option seems like the best fit.

    I feel like Specialist bonuses should go in the domestic category... but I'm not sure how to integrate the idea into the existing framework. Cybernetic would be relatively easy, but it would require rethinking Experimental.

    I think that would be truly gamebreaking.

    While I agree, I do like the idea of all Political options providing a source of Diplomatic Capital. I think it makes sense for this category and provides incentive for different playstyles. I need an alternative in that case. But I will admit that more power makes more sense.

    Well it is the Culture category after all. Stacking is a thing and Culture output can accelerate snowballing via territory as well as Virtues, which can be very valuable. I'll have to think about it more.


    With a name like Austere, I definitely think Energy to Food would make sense. I still want to find a way to work Diplo. Cap. into there somehow.

    A culture dedicated to production. Sounds compelling. I think I'd like to streamline a bonus like that though.
     
  19. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,695
    Perhaps Mobile could boost tile improvement rates?

    It kind of makes sense from the angle of an army engineering corps.
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    I'd still advocate a 1 / 2 / 3 scaling Health bonus on defensive buildings.

    The current power budget requires strong bonuses in fully invested traits.

    And I still think Zealous would work better for the offensive military trait than Lustrative, with the bonuses expanded to all kills.
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    That dip in problem generally plagues the Affinity level bonus system.

    With the huge bonuses Purity can get for extra culture in the current iteration, I think Nostalgic would compete well with it.

    It would be extremely strong with other culture-providing traits and culture conversion.

    I think you underestimate culture in this context.
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    Perhaps some of both would work well for Experimental.

    Giving cities a 10 / 15 / 20% science boost if they have a Wonder could work on top of current bonuses.
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    If Supremacy does get a specialist focus, it may be good to allow players to choose a non-specialist route if they want, like they can somewhat opt out of Culture focus in Purity.
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    In a similar line of thinking to the last sentence, I think letting diplomatic capital gain be an option could be best, though slightly more defined roles for the slots could also work well.
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    My central idea with Supremacy being able to fade out Food somewhat for Energy and Production substitutes is that they would become more machine-like and need less traditional food.

    Whether this was due to uploading or cybernetics could vary between colonies.
     
  20. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Messages:
    605
    Location:
    Honolulu, HI
    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    Would it be too boring if the main perk gave improvement speed and then the agreement to give it as well?


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    I think if I remove the scaling on the Defensive bonus, I'd be more comfortable with it. Renaming to Zealous sounds fine, I'll do that.

    It may be a missed opportunity, but I can't get behind the idea. Too many variables that I don't want to deal with. I think looking elsewhere would be more prudent (see what I did there :D, god I'm an idiot)


    Supremacy

    Spoiler :
    I hope its safe to do that. I mean it would probably be just the city getting a boost not a colony-wide effect. In addition to not stacking. That way it would promote building them in multiple cities. Coincidentally a Wonder focus matches with the Supremacy bonus in Starships.

    Yeah I think splitting the specialist focus would be a wise idea. That way you don't have to use them if you really don't want. I think putting one in Cybernetic and them another in Austere might make sense.

    I like the idea of giving Capital to supplement your overall income. But have it come through different sources and promoting different Foci. That way, if you're lacking DC you'll be able to invest in a source.

    I support that idea. The question is where to include it. I think Developmental could definitely work for it, thought it is a Cultural category. I'd like to provide some similar benefit elsewhere.
     

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