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Affinity Virtues

Discussion in 'CivBE - Ideas and Suggestions' started by KrikkitTwo, Sep 15, 2015.

  1. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004
    So that the 'philosophical/societal' societal side of the affinities is seen (and as a way to improve Victory conditions)
    Revised proposal

    Each Affinity Virtue acts as a normal Virtue, except for special requirements to get it
    Level 1 virtues require 5 Affinity (or 4-4 Hybrid) and an open L1 slot
    Level 2 virtues require 10 Affinity (or 7-7 Hybrid), an open L2 slot, and a specific L1 affinity virtue
    Level 3 virtues require 15 Affinity (or 10-10 Hybrid), an open L3 slot, and a specific L2 affinity virtue
    (All affinity virtues are in a 3 part series ie each level 1 connects to 1 and only 1 L2)

    You only have 2 L3 slots (could be up to 4 slots in the lower levels)
    Each Affinity has 4 ‘series’.

    Maybe restrict them all to the same affinity?
    Maybe you can ‘reassign’ them at the cost of culture and/or a period of military law+Resistance in your cities?

    Upon having 1 Level 3 Virtue and enough Total Virtues of an Affinity, you would get a special bonus allowing you to access the Affinity Victory. (Hybrids would get the opportunity to choose 1 Affinity Victory, the Other, or a bonus to both Affinity levels)

    Each Affinity virtue you have would give a bonus % to Affinity points earned in that affinity (and possibly % penalty to points earned in other affinities).. numbers depend on rebalancing.

    Ideas for actual virtues listed below
    Affinity Virtue Ideas
  2. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Aug 22, 2012
    I don't really like the idea of tying in governmental systems with Affinities, mainly because it would take some of the spotlight away from affinities.

    As a secondary concern it would limit roleplaying, and there is no reason that, say, a Purity colony valuing a strong military would inherently lean towards Autocracy.

    Though I would really like more bonuses to flesh out the noncombat side of Affinities, either as a Traits system or a Virtue-esq system.
  3. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004
    Well they wouldn't be governmental systems per se (since you could have a Democracy+Autocracy or Socialism+Corporatism or even all 4 if you are Elodie playing a late game...which makes me think for solid roleplaying, there needs to be a way to dispose of excess culture once you have reached a certain point...perhaps once you have 15 in a tree, you should have the option for culture to become something else and Not accumulate... say

    Knowledge 15: culture->science is an option (at a certain rate)
    Industry 15: culture->energy is an option (at a certain rate)
    Prosperity 15: culture->DC? is an option (at a certain rate)..something that you can store up on an empire level (health is empire level but it doesn't store)
    Might 15: culture->DC? is an option (at a certain rate)

    Or perhaps once any one of those has reached 15 you can turn accumulated culture into DC (at whatever a reasonable rate would be)

    However, for a Affinity fleshing out system, I think it is important
    1. for the Virtue system to be involved in it both conceptually (it is part of your internal development) and to keep culture important
    2. for it not to be a "5th tree" (sort of your Devotions system) because that means there is only 1 way to be "very Harmony" or "very Purity"

    As for it limiting roleplaying...

    1.The actual roleplaying effect would make the virtue terms a little bit more specific (ie no 'space Naziism' virtue but perhaps 'Authority sociology' or 'Command psychology'), and be a sort of background to developing/understanding the actual bonuses.
    So it wouldn't be as extreme as some of the things you find in BNW Autocracy/Order, but it would be toned down one more level.

    2. If you wanted to play a militarily strong free pure people in a way that no members of your society could call you fascist with any justification, just use the bonuses on 3rd Tier Knowledge or 3rd Tier Prosperity/Industry to have many high-tech units.

    3. having the Option of playing as space Nazi Purity or capitalist democracy Purity or social democracy Purity or Borg Supremacy or Human Hive Harmony or PETA hippie Harmony... that is the purpose and it should have actual gameplay effects.
  4. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Aug 22, 2012
    The fact that they could overlap makes it make less sense.

    I'd rather Virtue choice be independent of one's affinity while being kept vague, showing some differences in culture beyond affinity.

    The Affinity Traits system linked would give options to customize one's affinity with, though perhaps a variant where it would use culture instead of diplomatic capital would be preferable.

    I'd prefer all the virtues to be vague enough that I could somewhat think of them as good things, which means not getting very specific politically.

    A strong army could exist for just causes with Might, like protecting the peoples of Old Earth from the evils of the Emancipation Gate or culling dangerous aliens.

    As I said, roleplaying becomes limited when they are not vague...and often most of the options get creepy and/or heavily statist.

    I like to think that most of the colonies are at least relatively free.
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004
    While I agree roleplaying is limited when they are not sufficiently vague, roleplaying is also limited when they are too vague. (like I think the virtues are currently)

    Which is why those (especially with Purity) are only themes... ie taking some Purity Might would not mean your society is actually an autocracy, instead it would have elements that people could see as autocratic...like...well every country on Earth today.
    Also, that would just be the idea that would go into naming and picking the values of the virtues.

    While I agree many of the ideas are creepy/statist (at least from a certain point of view)
    1. all affinities other than Purity are somewhat creepy
    2. if it is not expressed as actual government options, but still virtues that society has developed, then "statism" instead is replaced by "ability of people to cooperate"
    3. maybe after a few centuries of social psychology people could figure out a way for statism to work at producing a truly good and free society (it took 2000 years to figure out a way for democracy to 'sort of' work.)
    (democracy=/=freedom); (freedom=/=happiness) [Those are just the best options for getting to those in 21st century Earth humans]

    So if I want to play as the Borg and see it as a good thing, I should be able to.

    I do like the affinity traits idea, but it

    1. forces distinctions ie you can only have one of the two traits (as opposed to a cost limitation being the only one in the Virtue system.. You don't have to take Might OR Prosperity, if you have enough culture you can take both)

    2. doesn't have quite as much flexibility in terms of investment (ie the main limitation is the categories.. 1 in each)
  6. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Dec 10, 2014
    Honolulu, HI
    There are reasons why there are are only 2 choices.
    • 1) It was meant to provide some trade-off.
    • 2) Creating storytelling and mechanical dichotomy.
    I would have loved to include 3 or 4 choices, but the sheer amount of concepts needed is daunting. And it was an attempt to bring the Trait system into the fold of Affinities.

    I have been contemplating ways to make affinities more customizable. By tying 6 affinities to 4 culture trees. You start to get into an innumerable number of concepts needed. Your concept is neat but I think you need to rein in the scope.
  7. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004
    I agree with the scope, tried coming up with 5 virtues for each of them, didn't finish yet.

    Maybe Have a number of Affinity "tenets" like BNW

    X Tier 1 Tenets (available when you reach Affinity 5 or 3-3).. but only 2 slots
    each Tier 1 Tenet enables at least 1 of X Tier 2 Tenets (available when you reach 10 or 6-6) but only 2 slots
    each Tier 2 Tenet enables at least 1 of X Tier 3 Tenets (available when you reach 15 or 10-10) but only 2 slots available

    That way "Ultimate Purity" is still different for different civs..but otherwise similar to the Devotion system.
  8. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Aug 22, 2012
    I just don't see much roleplaying value in naming specific governmental systems, and I think it would detract from both BE's hopeful theme and its emphasis on affinities.

    I view the choices that the Affinity Traits system requires as a strength, so players can really customize how their affinity appears.

    There would still be multiple things to unlock and choice in what to invest in, but it would allow for gameplay distinction that isn't as possible in an open pick system.

    Also as DefiantMars said coming up with two options that fit mechanically and flavorfully was difficult as-is: three or more would probably require sacrificing some of one or both.
  9. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004
    That's why the few names of governmental systems were just concepts, the names of the individual virtues would be different ideas that would relate to that concept but the concept would not be named specifically.
    after all it would be terrible if universal suffrage is still around in 1000 years ;)

    Well you actually were coming up with a total of 10 traits (or 30, but the levels weren't different from the base), per affinity (my model would have demanded 20)

    I think the choice (take this and not those) is good, but the binary nature of the choice (this specifically excludes that) is not.

    That's why I think an option like your Devotion system might be better, except with multiple varieties of the devotion.

    So instead of Political Affinity Trait (select 1 of 2), Domestic Trait(select 1 of 2), etc.

    You have Affinity Traits (select any 2 of 4 at this level).

    I would make them
    1. purchasable with Culture (like Virtues... probably purchasable AS virtues)
    2. Able to be switched around with a culture cost (and change to a 'neighboring' affinity with a 'revolution' ie semirandom period of martial law in all cities)
    3. requiring affinity levels for different levels (5, 10, 15 core or 3,6,10 hybrid)

    also they should be fairly radical (although not necessarily very powerful) in effect. (especially by level 3)
  10. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Aug 22, 2012
    I like the limitation of the option you don't choose: it feels like I am really customizing my colony rather than a "I'll get it eventually" mentality.

    Opportunity costs like that add weight to decisions.

    It would be difficult to design alternate perks in the Devotions system, both because they are individually strong and because they cater to a certain playstyle for each hybrid and core affinity.

    When you have more open selection, by necessity the individual perks need to be weaker in terms of overall game impact per perk.
  11. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004

    Well you won't necessarily get it eventually if the cost is more than you will get by late game. But I agree with that basic idea of limited options, but rather than
    select 1 of 2 for this
    select 1 of 2 for that
    giving 4 combos from 4 options

    select 2 of 4 gives 6 combos from 4 options

    And I do think the Devotions getting 2 of 4 options would mean they would be cheaper and less powerful... but they could still push towards certain playstyles... the advantage is they could be playstyle options.
  12. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Dec 10, 2014
    Honolulu, HI
    Just 2 things to mull over. With Hybrid affinities "supposedly" being their own solutions, how do you give them enough individuality; their own identity. Second, if you're going to give the player choices akin to Civ V ideologies, do you give them as many slots as there are options? One of the other reasons the Affinity Trait system was made was to help players stake out their own identity within the potentially broad range of concepts found in affinities.
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004

    No the key would be less slots than options (so a hard limit), but rather than
    1 slot with two options, a second slot with a second two options, etc.
    say 2 slot with 4 options per level (so of A, B, C, and D.. picking A does not eliminate B as an option..although A and C would eliminate B)

    Will get a revised (and more complete) model up eventually.
  14. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

    Dec 10, 2014
    Honolulu, HI
    I was pretty sure that was your intent. Some of your previous statements seems a tad contrary to that, I just wanted to make sure.

    I'm just struggling to find an elegant idea as how to simultaneously represent Hybrids as unique conclusions as well as being tied to their parent core affinities.

    Anyway, if you see any concepts in the Affinity Traits list that you like, feel free to use them. I"m a bit proud of some of them.
  15. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Aug 22, 2012
    That is easier with a single progression system like my Devotions system, but it has the downside of much less player choice.

    Hybrid options being only a combination of the parent affinity's is biggest weakness of the affinity traits system, but I think it works well enough.

    It could be seen as giving players more freedom in how they interpret hybrid traits.
  16. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Nov 24, 2014
    Following this got a bit confusing so I'm not sure if this was suggested, sorry, but the easiest thing to do would be to shove in Ideologies . . . but for Affinities.

    The Ideologies, like in BNW, would show what Victory types they're best-suited for and even the Affinity types (including Hybrids) they're best-suited for.

    This is simply an easy copy of what works in BNW. I'd prefer something more unique, but I think it's a good place to start.


    Oh wait that was literally just suggested, haha.
  17. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

    Aug 22, 2012
    One of my problems with the old Ideology system was that some bonuses were considerably stronger than others, leading to me typically having a predictable pick order at first.

    I prefer the Affinity Traits system since the choices it offers would be easier to balance, with more of a sense of customization than Ideology had.

    The Devotions system in contrast is a single progression system, which makes it easy to keep a coherent theme and gameplay style but does not leave room for player choice.

    Nowadays I'd probably prefer an Affinity Traits system, though perhaps unlocked with Culture as well as Diplomatic Capital, but they both have their strengths.
  18. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Apr 3, 2004
    Ideas for the affinity bonuses were based on
    1. Encouraging certain tile improvements (dome, terrascape, node, biowell)
    2. Causing changes in how the game played that tie in with the affinity
    3. Allowing interesting options
    (with ideas borrowed from Affinity Trait system and Devotions System)

    (Terraforming-bonuses assume the ‘Terrascape’ bonus is removed from Prosperity)
    Local Terraforming: +1 Terrascape food if no miasma
    Regional Terraforming: +1 Terrascape production, +1 culture on Terrascapes Or tiles adjacent to Terrascapes with ‘terraform’*
    Anthropogenic Climate Change: Population contributes to global terraforming*

    (Old Earth Remembrance)
    Old Earth Remembrance: OER/Terravault give extra culture and % culture boost
    Earth Restoration: % of City Culture given as production, % of global Culture as energy
    New Earth: % of City Culture given as food, % of global Culture as science

    (Human flourishing)
    Basic Human Nature: % health bonus per total Virtues
    Human Flourishing: DC and % culture per total Virtues
    True Humanism: % science boost per total Virtues

    (Support of Human Form)
    Genetic Therapy: % Growth bonus per level of Purity
    Human Development: Health bonus per level of Purity
    Humanized Industry: % Production bonus per level of Purity

    (Alien Interaction)
    Xenobehavior: Aliens go to blue naturally and faster, Units get a combat bonus if an alien is adjacent (even if the alien is red)
    Xenointegration: Aliens go towards red with your enemies, Aliens (all of them worldwide) get a combat bonus equal to 10% per Harmony level (5% for Collosal aliens) (uses the greatest bonus from a player)
    Xenosymbiosis: Science, food Bonus to nests being worked?Science/Food trade routes with nests?, Workers can plant nests even outside our territory (on any affinity resource with miasma not adjacent to existing nest) Aliens worldwide become “evolved” versions that have more base strength and additional perks.

    Native Bioharvest: Plantations, Workboats, Paddocks and Forests with Miasma present get +1 food +1 production
    Bioinfrastructure: Excess food is used in the production of buildings rather than growth, 50% of Harmony level added to growth
    Organosynthetics: Excess food is used in the production of units rather than growth, 50% of Harmony level added to growth

    (Human Hive)
    Behavioral Gene Therapy: Magrail connected non-puppet cities get +1 Health, and Influence** equal to your Harmony level
    Sociobiological Engineering: Magrail connected non-puppet cities get a +% to food production and automatic reduction of Intrigue based on % Influence**
    Eusocial Humanity: Magrail connected non-puppet cities get a +% to your Empires influence** and a -% to foreign influence**, you empire gets a -% to its influence** in foreign cities

    (Bioengineered humanity)
    Metabolic Adaptation: +Health from Xenomass tiles, Alien Preserves, and Xenosanctuaries
    Sociogenetic Adaptation: +Culture from Biowells and Cities with Miasma
    Ecosystem Engineers: +AntiTerraforming** from Biowells with Miasma, +Culture from Antiterraform buildings**, Growth+30%-10% per GTL**

    (Virtual Reality)
    Virtual Reality: +City Culture from City Energy (if Net energy is +)
    Immersion: +Health from Net Energy
    Reality of Mind: Energy substitutes for food shortfalls, +Total Science from Net Energy

    (Mind editing)
    Neural Therapy: Reduced Unhealth from Affinity/Foreign Influence/Radicals**
    Loyalty Programming: Spies 1 level higher, Wounded units do full damage
    Mind Hack: Can Capture units you defeat in battle (if you are capable of building them), No Resistance after Martial law has ended, 2x Resistance Unhealth.

    (One Mind)
    Mind Links: 2% Total Culture added as Influence** to non-puppet cities
    Collaborative Intelligence: Enemy Spies in your cities have +10% failure rate per Supremacy level, 0.2 extra Research from Population
    Collective Thought: Influence** in all nonpuppet cities moves towards the average, -2% purchase cost of buildings and units per Supremacy level

    (Robot bodies)
    Artificial Enhancement: +Health from Supremacy level
    Cyborg Society: 10%? of Production added to growth, Energy used to cover food shortfalls
    Robotic Populace: 30%? of Production+Energy added to Growth (If Net energy +)

    Harmony-Purity (Ascendancy)
    Perfected Synthesis of environment:
    Terrascapes build faster (or all improvements, or a boost to building long build time improvements)
    +2 energy Terrascape+miasma
    +1 energy +1science Terrascape+miasma, -2 Local Terraforming* in your territory

    Superhuman Perfectionism:
    +1 Production/city per Hybrid level
    +1 Science/city per Hybrid level
    +1 Culture/city per Hybrid level

    Perfect Society:
    +5% bonus to building production for every copy of that building you have
    +0.1 health per building
    +0.5 energy per building

    Next stage of Human Evolution:
    Undamaged units in friendly territory receive 1 experience point every 3? Turns, +1 Diplomatic Capital per Hybrid level
    50% more Rebels** from Influence in foreign cities, Spies add to Rebel** level in foreign cities
    War Score Bonus from Hybrid level v. enemy’s hybrid level, +1 maintenance free unit per city

    Supremacy-Purity (Mastery)
    Shining Cities:
    +1 prod Mine, +2 energy Generator, +1 food Farm if NOT adjacent to city
    +1 culture +1 health to Terrascapes adjacent to city
    Tiles not adjacent to Terrascapes OR cities +1 production +1 energy

    Machine Coordination:
    +1% to Energy and Health per population, Cities with Network
    +1% to Science and Production per population, Cities with CEL cradle
    +2% to Culture and Growth per population, Cities with Node Bank

    Elite humanity:
    +1 Science, +2 Culture per Net Health
    +% Health per Hybrid level
    +0.5 DiploCapital and +5% War Score per Net health

    Humaniform Robot Helpers:
    +% Growth per Hybrid level
    50% of Net Health added to Growth
    +0.1 Health per pop

    Supremacy-Harmony (Audacity)
    Biomechanical environment:
    +2 food on Strategic resources, +1 food on Copper, Gold, Basalt, Silica
    +3 food on Manufactury, Refinery, Geothermal Well with Miasma
    +1 Science and +2 health on Manufactury, Refinery, Geothermal Well with Miasma

    +2 Output per Specialist [unless normal specialists start at 3-4 then this should just be +1 per], Specialists only eat 1 food
    2x Specialist Slots available from buildings
    +2 Output per specialist, Specialists give 0.5 Health

    Evolving society:
    +20% of Tech cost added to Total Culture on Tech discovery
    +0.5 Health per Leaf Tech, +1 Health per 2nd/3rd ring Tech
    +1 DiploCapital per Tech, +5% War Score per Techs more than enemy

    Disruptive Society:
    Faster Affinity Change**, +Influence in foreign cities of all known factions at 50% of Hybrid level
    +100% Influence** on Foreign cities, +50% Influence** from Foreign cities
    +100% generation of Anti-Enemy Radicals**, +4% Intrigue bonus per Hybrid level

    *Ideas based in my Terraforming proposal: Global Terraforming

    **Ideas based in my 'Influence' proposal:BE Sociopolitical Mechanic (Rebels, Unifying empires and Affinity hatred)

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