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After being backstabbed...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by b7fanatix, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. b7fanatix

    b7fanatix Warlord

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    what should you do?

    It often happens that your neighbour DoWs you with a DoF active.

    After beating back this assault and securing a peace deal, how do you proceed towards them?

    1) befriend them again. They are now quite likely desperate for trade partners, and no-one trusts them anymore. If they backstab again, that just puts them in a deeper hole.

    2) Denounce. They have the "backstab" negative diplo modifier and after the conflict ends, their army is probably weaker than the other civs. Likely to result in a chain of denouncements.

    3) I avoid denouncing them because i never accept peace. Reduce them to one city and no army then pay their neighbours to DoW them and let their neighbour capture their last city.

    Similarly, how do you act towards neighbours that DoW you (no DoF active) once peace breaks out? Bury the hatchet, denounce or kill?

    I usually go with option 1), unless they're someone like Shaka in which case i need to protect my future security by weakening them a bit, at minimum. Capture one of his border cities to use as a buffer zone, citadel bomb his great person improvements, capture his workers.

    Yesterday though i got backstabbed by Elizabeth, i had all my trade routes going to her and lost the lot, i had done NOTHING to antagonise and her closest city was 12 tiles from one of mine. She just did it because she perceived me the weakest, with only 1 xbow and 1 longswordsman in each of my cities (hilly terrain). Denounced her, she was hostile for the next 500 years.
     
  2. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    They are already in the hole and further backstabs wont do anything. The negative 'backstab' modifier with all civs is permanent.

    Unless they have access to a luxury resource you need for WLTK in your capital I'd denounce and say 'yes' to the following requests to DOW them. It is likely half the world will chain denounce but you never know, especially if the other AI civs like them more than you.

    Me personally I like to go with the diplomatic route and not denounce hoping one day we might be "friends". If you denounce that is more than likely impossible as every 30 turns the AI will keep on denouncing you back for the earlier denouncement you made 2000 years ago.
     
  3. Scooter47

    Scooter47 Chieftain

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    First off I learned the hard way to never give the more apparent ai backstabbers an embassy or open borders and never sign a DoF with them. So for most of my games that's mainly been Carthage, Spain, England, Assyria and Poland.

    Regarding your questions though:

    1) I can see its tempting to befriend them again so you'll get backstabbed again in the future and then they will end up with even more diplomatic hate against them but to be honest befriending a civ that tends to warmonger and backstab everyone leads to negative diplomacy with other civs. "You made a declaration of friendship with one of their enemies". This usually always comes back to haunt me later. Mainly I simply refuse to deal with them and ignore their requests. By their very nature most civs will end up hating them anyway.

    2) Yes denounce them. TBH I've got so used to the ones that I know will definitely backstab me I tend to denounce them just before they invade. I like to have everyone hating them, particularly if they are a runaway.

    3) I never take their cities unless I'm going for a domination win and I need a city to give me a forward position to help take their capital. In most other cases I never accept their first peace offer until they start to offer me something juicy like a city. Then I either raze the city to weaken them or even better offer it to a friendly civ who has been on the receiving end of this particular warmonger. It causes all kinds of useful chaos.

    For neighbours that aren't typically backstabbers or warmongers I tend to bury the hatchet. Morocco foward settled me in a recent game and I took their city and razed it but that was in the Ancient Era and we went on to have a decent friendship.

    As for Elizabeth, that woman is just pure evil. Now I'm British and I have to say I really hate her. Many times her constant annoying comments and bonkers behaviour drives me to want to wipe her out ASAP. Same goes for Isabella. For those psychos I say bury the hatchet in their backs. Dido is less bother since she tends to annoy every one and loses all her cities rather quickly.
     
  4. LordBalkoth

    LordBalkoth Prince

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    WHAT?!

    Ashurbanipal is a crazy warmonger, yes, but he also has one of the lowest deceptiveness ratings. If you have a DoF with him, he's not going to backstab you. He might wait until it ends and THEN declare war, but he won't backstab.

    Casimir is even LESS deceptive than Ashurbanipal. Again, can be a warmonger, but I love having Poland in my games because I know I can count him on to be a loyal ally if I manage to befriend, which I usually can because he's also a very friendly leader.

    In general, the AI is REALLY loathe to backstab you because of the modifier. If you get a DoF with them then it's really hard to actually manage to have them attack you while it's active.
     
  5. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    If you are really pressed... Reload a couple turns back, selling all your gpt for gold. After the backstab, DOW them.
     
  6. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    They both backstab me very often actually, Polandball in industrial era tends to turn it up to 11 on the crazy scale
     
  7. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    As I understand it, the “flavors” range each game +/- 5. So except for Shaka (default 2), everyone, including all the other warmongers, might backstab. Ashurbanipal is 4 on a value that ranges from 2 to 8, so clearly middle of the pack. So you both are right!

    See the Civ V Interactive AI Bias Value Chart.

    I see this as one of the major flaws with game. So much work went into the design, but then they (1) pick mostly middling values for the AI personalities, and then (2) subject the whole mechanism to relative heavy RNG. The net result is too similar what they would have gotten from not bothering at a because (1) results in the AI personalities seeming very similar to each other, and (2) works against any personality being evident from game-to-game.
     
  8. b7fanatix

    b7fanatix Warlord

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    There's a lot of factors that come to play. Loyalty is one , AI with high loyalty display less aggression to civs they like, but it does depend on how aggressive they are to start with. DoF willingness is another factor that ties directly in with Loyalty. A leader with fairly low loyalty but also low DoF willingness is actually fairly unlikely to backstab, because to make the friendship request in the first place they must have so many positive modifiers it outweighs the low loyalty.

    Also victory competitiveness plays a role. I've been nice to Catherine all game, she's friendly and shows no negative modifiers, then 20 turns before i launch my rocket, WAR NUKE WAR ! Bright red on "you are competing for the same type of victory" and "you built wonders that they coveted".

    I've actually found Wu Zetian not too bad. Unless she's being deceptive she's very hard to Friend -

    Me - I found these workers in this camp, look like they belong to you?
    Wu - Thanks. Tell them to stand over there

    Me - Zetty , want Open Borders for nothing?
    Wu Z - K

    Me - I got some Silver nobody can afford full price on. Want it for free?
    Wu Z - Yes, now go away

    Me - Free Oil, interested ?
    Wu Z - leave it on the porch

    Me - Want to be Friends ?
    Wu - I must decline

    Eventually, after voting backing her congress proposals, forgiving her for spying every 3 turns, adopting her ideology and religion, she asked to be friends and renewed it every 30 turns to the end of the game. Didn't get all butthurt about me making spaceship parts, which is a big plus.
     
  9. Socratatus

    Socratatus Emperor

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    I never Reload to solve a problem. Might suit you, but I find it a bit cheap.
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    ^^Do you have a suggestion for OP, or just like to shoot down others ideas?
     
  11. LordBalkoth

    LordBalkoth Prince

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    It's +-2, which means Ash can be anywhere from 2 to 6. Shaka can be anywhere from 0 to 4.

    And Ghandi with his nukes can range from 10 to 14 (yes, you read that correctly, he CANNOT go below a 10 for nukes).

    Hang on, let's clarify something: when the OP is talking about backstabbing, they mean getting DoWed with a DoF active. NOT an AI with a DoF active who denounces you (which is also considered a backstab).

    Casimir has actually DoWed you WHILE you have a DoF with him (emphasis on an actual DoF, NOT simply being "friendly")?
     
  12. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Is “Deceptive” the trait associated with willingness to backstab? I really think it is something else, but I am not sure what. (1) Deception is tightly tied to hiding hostility, and (unlike the majority of traits) its influence on the game is clear. It would be poor design to have it do something else important as well. (2) I have been backstabbed by AI with low deception flavors, and who were not acting deceptive prior to the backstab.

    Thanks for that correction! I was remembering a range of 5, which is still about half the full range. So, too much, and still poor design (but not nearly as bad as I made it out to be).

    The build/use nuke values for Ghandi is one of the rare examples of the flavors actually being noticeable from game-to-game.

    Fair point, and one that I am guilty off. I was mostly just thinking about the denouncement during DoF. Would those two situations key off the same trait values? It does seem to me that DoW during DoF is much rare than denouncement during DoF.

    DoW during DoF is even more justification for reloading back a turn. The AI is just asking for a lump-sum-for-gpt deal!
     
  13. Scooter47

    Scooter47 Chieftain

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    In the case of Ashurbanipal you are probably right. I could have sworn he has backstabbed me a couple of times but IIRC in most cases he probably just declared war on the very turn the DoF ran out. Talk about sneaky timing. :lol:

    Casimir on the other hand I assure you has backstabbed me numerous times. He has signed a DoF with me and a few turns later when he has enough units popped up with the "Backstab is such an ugly word" quote.

    Its weird I know considering the Ai flavour information since he has 7 for Loyalty and 7 for Friendly but just about every game I've played that has Poland in he turns into a treacherous and warmongering maniac. Often he is the runaway civ.

    TBH I'd really like it if I had the nice Poland you seem to get. Maybe I got Casimir's evil twin or something. :D
     
  14. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

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    What map, and what size are you playing on?

    If Pangea/Large Continents and <Large world size, there's really not too much you can "do" (i.e. it's more of a game mechanic that everyone will hate each other and try to declare war, especially on the human), as everyone will get really snarky about "OMG you bought/settled in this strip of barely-arable land!" fairly quickly.

    The DoF itself just adds a -30(? Don't remember exact value) opinion modifier to your relationship with the AI. If the AI perceives you as being militarily/economically weaker, and you piss them off sufficiently (through land disputes and whatnot), then there really is nothing to stop the AI from DoW'ing you.

    As for the "Friendly" (and deception) the AI puts out, that's just the "approach" (and is separate from the actual opinion modifier) the AI uses as a front - never take it for face value.
     
  15. tribefaninnc

    tribefaninnc Chieftain

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    In this situation, if I am able to fend off the attack, I typically counter attack and try to get rid of them (or weaken the civ to where they are not significant). I usually assume that once they backstab me, it is not worthwhile to try to maintain a relationship with them. Sometimes I will keep them alive just to create another trading partner for excess lux. So I guess that is option 3).
     
  16. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    You got the correct answer in 1). Deceptive is one of the AI diplo approaches, and it only means the AI pretends to be Friendly and hides many of the negative modifiers (to be able to pretend friendliness without giving away its hand). Has nothing to do with back stabs, as far as I know the dll.

    "Reading" their deceptive approach is not that hard once you know the game. Memory helps there, as you will usually see the negative modifiers of an AI suddenly "disappear" and said AI going to Friendly; it's not that the mods disappeared, its the AI hiding them. Trades are not a good indicator, as the deceptive AI trades at its current displayed approach, so you can see friendly trades because the AI shows Friendly while in fact it is hiding its true opinion. Only knowing the previous state of said AI will give you a good indicator of the reliability of its present shown approach.
     
  17. LordBalkoth

    LordBalkoth Prince

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    Let's say Attila covets your lands. Then you build a wonder he wants. Then you steal his land with a great general. Then suddenly he reads as "Friendly" with no diplomatic penalties shown. He's being deceptive...and you can also determine this by seeing if he'll accept the usual trades (he won't).

    I think the denouncement is more tied to loyalty and competitive/warmonger hatred. For example, if you have a DoF with Halle...but then you conquer half the world and build the wonders he wants, he'll get tired of it and denounce you. The more loyalty a Civ has, the more it'll take to push them over the edge.

    And yes, I have *never* seen a DoW during DoF. Ever. I'd almost want to see a video of it happening to believe it. DoW while "friendly" (deceptive or not)? Yes. Denouncement with DoF? Yes. DoW with DoF? No. Basically, if a DoF ends and you're worried that the Civ is planning to attack you, try asking to renew it. If they refuse, watch your back. If they accept, you should be safe.

    I certainly won't claim I've seen 100% of things that happen in Civ 5 during 800+ hours, but I think I've seen most of them.

    Yeah. The AI might have been plotting to attack you for 49 turns but waited for the DoF to expire. They'll do that.

    I've only seen the "Backstab is such an ugly word" from deceptive leaders like Attila who was "friendly" with me (but no DoF). You're 100% positive you had a DoF, he didn't denounce you, he just DoWed on you? I've just never seen it happen.

    Yeah, Casimir is kind of annoying in that he likes to warmonger but hates you if you warmonger. But if you're playing peaceful then he's a good ally to have a DoF and DP with -- friendly and loyal. Just have to try to bribe others to attack him to prevent him from running away if necessary.

    I am 99% sure this is not the case (they should refuse to accept the friendly trades like 1 strategic for 2 gpt) -- you able to demonstrate otherwise? Tried checking some saved games to see if I could find a leader in deceptive status but don't seem to have one handy.
     
  18. A.J.K.

    A.J.K. Chieftain

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    I just had an interesting backstab happen with Harald. I settled my 4th city on a natural wonder kind of close to his capital. I then saved my game. Something like 10 turns later, he DOWs me and takes my city pretty easily with a Berzerker/Trireme/Trebuchet blitzkrieg. Then, somewhat luckily, my game crashed.

    Re-load and I offer him free Truffles to hopefully get him off my back. He then offers a DoF and I think "whew! dodged a bullet there!" but I build walls around the city and a few more military units just in case. Something like 10 turns later - BOOM! DOW! Backstab! He was kind of bottlenecked into a choke point and kept sending his melee units into the water where they were easy pickings for my ranged units and city bombardment, but even so he was getting my city into the yellow and I was sure I was going to lose it again. Out of desperation, I offer a peace deal, no terms just peace on both sides. To my utter shock, he accepted! Then, as soon as the peace treaty was over, BOOM! Attacks me again! Same thing - he gets my city down to yellow, I get nervous, desperately offer peace, and he accepts! Strange, but I'll take it! The second time, I think it was partially because Spain was attacking him from the other side.

    So then, I built a castle and a galleass in the contested city and I had been gifted not one, but TWO longbowmen from a militaristic city state (one came right near the end of the second war), and when the Aztecs asked me to attack Harald along with them, I happily obliged (after using a great general to fortify my bottleneck and steal some of his land) and now I am well on the way to taking his capital. At that point I will probably see if I can get someone else to take his last city, the jerk. :)
     
  19. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    I am 100% sure it is the case: I remember the situations clearly. Of course I don't have a save exactly at the point where an AI that I KNOW is being Deceptive, shows Friendly and trades like Friendly... but I clearly remember the case. At least, it trades luxuries 1 to 1, as in Friendly state.

    So, Yes, you will have to take my word for granted, or just disregard it, and run your own experiments. Key here is KNOWING that the AI is in fact in Deceptive approach.

    Best way to confirm Deceptive approach: a spy (yours or one of your Friend's) in suspicious AI city. The moment one of the spies reports "XXX is plotting against you", that is the confirmation you want. Plotting=Deceptive approach, nothing more and nothing less.
     
  20. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    He will. At the least, 1 to 1 luxury trades. I have seen it many times.



    Wrong. We only need one example to render this statement void, and I have seen at least one of them (and I read many times in these forums examples of the same by other players). DoF is not a guarantee; an AI may declare war even under a DoF (and takes the full blunt of the perm neg mod). It usually happens with an AI that is already clearly behaving like the pariah who does not care (think Hitler).
     

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