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AG Civics Mod Development

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by ArbitraryGuy, Nov 16, 2005.

  1. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Version 0.1 of the AG Civics Mod is up for testing and review. See attachment below. I think it shows a lot of promise.

    Goal of Mod
    The goal of this mod is to add “realism” to the civics system in Civ 4, as well as add more and new choices for players. There are four categories (political system, economic base, cultural value, and oppression-now "civil rights") with nine options (eight non-default) each. The fifth category is reserved for situations created by random events in future versions of the mod. There is a doc file explaining what all the civics do in the download.

    Goal of Public Testing and Input
    Your input is most definitely needed and welcomed. Main questions to be answered by testing: is it balanced, does the AI handle things well with variety, are there any improvements to be made to reach the goal of the mod? I need your assistance in determining this. Thanks.


    Change History
    Version 0.1:
    -This is just a public version for public testing.
    -Civics options all new (36)
    -Factories produce 2 unhappiness
    -No Civilopedia entries or strategy tool tips have been added yet, but will be in future editions
    -Credits for artwork contained in the doc in the folder
  2. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Here's a description of the new civics v0.1...

    Political Systems
    Spoiler :

    Might Makes Right (No tech, Low Upkeep)
    Political power is obtained by brute violence, tribal power, and extortion. This characterizes not only very primitive social arrangements, but also many revolutions.

    Dynastic Monarchy (Monarchy, Low Upkeep)
    Tradition holds that the King or Queen is a direct descendent of the immortal gods or have obtained their power by some other supernatural means.
    +1 happy in cities with the state religion

    Oligarchic Republic (Code of Laws, Medium Upkeep)
    A governing body, usually some equivalent of a senate, is elected by a select class of elite families and wields the forces of government.
    +50% tax revenue per city
    +50% war weariness per city

    Feudalism (Feudalism, Low Upkeep)
    An elaborate system of allegiances between nobles of varying degrees of power based on the suzerain-vassal relationship of fealty.
    +1 free experience for every military unit produced
    +free military units

    Theocracy (Theology, Medium Upkeep)
    Political power is wielded by a church, group of clergy, or monarchs strongly enforcing the will of the church.
    +25 % production of buildings in state-religion cities
    No spread of non-state religions

    Absolute Monarchy (Divine Right, Medium Upkeep)
    Evolving from the feudal system, political power has been centralized and consolidated into a monarch with nigh absolute political, social, and military powers.
    -50% distance maintenance
    +50% production and commerce yields in capital city

    Military Dictatorship (Military Tradition, Medium Upkeep)
    Political power has been seized by the military, usually by a bloody coup. Violence and force are used to further the agenda of the military or the agenda of the dictator.
    +2 experience per new military unit produced in every city
    -50% war weariness

    Bureaucratic State (Civil Service, High Upkeep)
    Political power rests in the hands on an unelected bureaucracy. Central government planners direct the path of the nation.
    No number of cities maintenance costs

    Democracy (Democracy, Medium Upkeep)
    Political power rests in the hands of the people.
    +50% tax revenue per city
    +25% science and culture per city
    +100% war weariness

    Economic Base
    Spoiler :

    Survival (No tech, Low Upkeep)
    Hunting, gathering, and primitive agriculture for mere subsistence leave little room for much else in this economy.

    Conquest (Bronze Working, Low Upkeep)
    This primitive economic system involves subjugating other peoples, tributes, or even pillaging for prosperity. Think Mongol Hoards, Vikings, or Assyrians.
    +1 experience per military unit per city
    Food Produces military units

    Agriculture (Agriculture, Low Upkeep)
    The economy is based on agriculture. Slaves, peasants, serfs and some property-owning freemen are the bulwark of production.
    +2 health per city

    Trade Guilds (Guilds, Low Upkeep)
    Although agriculture is still the mainstay of the economy, specialized craftsmen and artisans have a growing influence in the urban areas. By banding together, they yield considerable economic power.
    +1 free specialist per city

    Mercantilism (Banking, Low Upkeep)
    The government has set up an elaborate system of tariffs and taxes to control the economy.
    +100% commerce in the capital
    No foreign trade routes

    Capitalism (Economics, Medium Upkeep)
    The economy has its foundations in capitalists capturing the gains from trade. The pursuit of profits drives economic activity.
    +1 commerce on farm, fishing boat, whaling boat, mine, workshop, lumber mill, wind mill, water mill, plantation, quarry, pasture, camp, well, oil platform, and winery improvements

    Socialism (Communism, High Upkeep)
    Rejecting the capitalist system as inhumane and self-contradictory, the working classes of the nation have set up an economy based on the needs and desires of their class. Economic activity is the realm of the state.
    Factories no longer produce unhappiness
    +1 food on farm, workshop, watermill
    +1 production on mine, lumber mill, and town

    Military-Industrial Complex (Assembly Line, High Upkeep)
    The driving force of the economy is the relationship between the military and the industrialists who produce their weapons and equipment. Firmly entrenched in society, military production, buildup, and wartime profiteering (“Kruppism”) dominate the economy.
    +2 experience per military unit produced
    +50% military production

    Green Economy (Ecology, High Upkeep)
    The government regulates the economy to reduce pollution the sake of the environment.
    +8 health per city
    Happiness from forests and jungles

    Cultural Value
    Spoiler :

    Naturalism (No tech, Low Upkeep)
    The dominant values are those of human nature: finding food and perpetuating the species.

    Religion (Priesthood, Low Upkeep)
    Religion is the main value of the society.
    +1 happiness in cities with the state religion

    Social Order (Code of Laws, Medium Upkeep)
    The main forces of society attempt to maintain its hierarchical dominance and discipline.
    +1 happiness from courthouse and barracks

    Liberty (Liberalism, Low Upkeep)
    Freedom and liberty are held to and cherished as sacred, natural rights.
    +100% culture in every city
    +50% war weariness in every city

    Equality (Liberalism, High Upkeep)
    Society seeks to maintain social, political, and economic equality among its members.
    No sickness from population

    Humanism (Drama, High Upkeep)
    Society is centered around human interests and values, with a particular emphasis on a classical, individualistic spirit. Think Renaissance.
    +50% great person growth rate

    Jingoism (Nationalism, Low Upkeep)
    Foreigners and ethnic minorities serve as scapegoats for society’s ills and problems.
    -25% war weariness

    Atheism (Biology, Low Upkeep)
    With the spread of evolution, the society has rejected traditional religion as an explanation of the functioning of the universe and turned to science.
    +25% science rate
    No state religion allowed

    Consumption (Mass Media, Medium Upkeep)
    Mass consumption of material goods has become the motive and end of society. It may be an empty existence, but the people are happy.
    +1 happiness from market, grocer, and supermarket

    Civil Rights
    Spoiler :

    Barbarism (No tech, Low Upkeep)
    The leading forces have not yet become fully civilized. Brutality and violence characterize the rule of those yielding political power.

    Slave Labor (Masonry, Low Upkeep)
    Hordes of slaves are used for mass building projects by the political power.
    Population rushing allowed

    Religious Persecution (Theology, Low Upkeep)
    By focusing their anger on religious minorities, the majority of the commoners are kept content.
    +1 happy in each city with state religion
    -1 happy for each non-state religious community

    Aristocracy (Monarchy, Low Upkeep)
    The elite land owners have a vast amount of political power and they use it to squeeze gain from the peasants.
    +2 gold from farms, -1 food from farms

    Martial Law (Military Tradition, High Upkeep)
    In times of emergency or revolutionary fervor, it may become necessary for the military to enforce civil order.
    +1 happiness for each military unit stationed in a city
    Barracks create unhappiness

    Secret Police (Fascism, Medium Upkeep)
    Controlling the people is easier when the state spies on them. By maintaining a large secret police force, the people are scared into efficiency and corruption is reduced.
    -50% distance from palace maintenance costs
    Jails create unhappiness

    Monopolies (Banking, Medium Upkeep)
    Monopolies, issued by the political authority, use their market power to exploit customers.
    Rushing buildings with gold is allowed.

    Conscription (Nationalism, Medium Upkeep)
    The state reserves the right to draft persons into the military.
    Can conscript two units per turn
    Barracks create unhappiness

    Human Rights (Plastics, High Upkeep)
    The political powers do not oppress the people. Rather, they respect their human rights.
    Creates unhappiness in civilizations without human rights.
  3. Rufus T. Firefly

    Rufus T. Firefly Rufus is coming in town!

    Jun 17, 2003
    Freedonian North pole base
    I like the idea, I will try it.

    Why not rename oppression as civil rights?

    EDIT: File is corrupted
  4. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Crap... I uploaded another one... it should work.
  5. Raize

    Raize Warlord

    Oct 26, 2005
    "Oppression" and "Religious Persecution" sort of have slanted connotations to them...

    Maybe you'd ought to consider "Social Order" and "Mandatory Religion"?
  6. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Yeah... Oppression will become Civil Rights, as Rufus suggested, but what's the problem with Religious Persecution? Maybe "Religious Intolerance" is better?
  7. Rufus T. Firefly

    Rufus T. Firefly Rufus is coming in town!

    Jun 17, 2003
    Freedonian North pole base
    Something like "Ortodoxy" or "Fanatism"?
  8. Dikaioma

    Dikaioma Warlord

    Nov 2, 2005
    Fanatism sounds more like what he is trying to go for.
  9. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Yes... perhaps fanaticism. Thanks for the suggestions.
  10. JDexter

    JDexter Prince

    Dec 18, 2003
    "Human Rights" should have a general bonus added, like +1 Happyness in every city.
    Maybe some of the "bonus-only" civics are too powerfull, e.g. "Capitalism" - that's a LOT of commerce added! There should be some negative side to it (maybe increased pollution -> unhealthines in all cities).

    But in general: real cool mod which is really necessary IMO :)
  11. Master Kodama

    Master Kodama Nitpicker

    May 2, 2004
    Off Topic
    "Fanaticism" is not necessarily religious, and I don't really agree that it has the proper connotation. Fanaticism is really just extremism, not necessarily religious in nature or representative of an intolerant theocratic state. I would say suggestions like "Religious Intolerance" would be much better, or even "Orthodoxy."

    My own personal suggestions are regarding the terms "Atheism" and "Consumption." For "Atheism," I think "Secularism" would be a much better name for this civic, since that conveys the increased emphasis on science and the idea of no state religion. But shouldn't this civic come with Scientific Method? The Enlightenment started with the development of science in the 1700s and even as early as the late 1600s (though the later discoveries of Darwin helped A LOT), and was characterized by Deism -- not Atheism, which has only been adopted by Communist states in much more recent times. However, the term "Secularism" is easily broad enough to include Atheistic states (such as modern China), while "Atheism" doesn't seem to cover states that have seperation of church and state but whose people still practice religion.

    As for "Consumption," that name doesn't bring to mind a civic, or a cultural value, but rather the archaic name for tuberculosis :p . I recommend "Consumerism," since that's an fitting and also easily recognizable term.

    Btw, very interesting and well thought out re-design of the civic-system. :goodjob:
  12. Skippa

    Skippa Noble

    Nov 8, 2005
    This is awesome. Tons of Civics!!
    Some of the names are 'interesting' as people are pointing out but you have to start somewhere.
    I agree with Master Kodama about the Atheism => Secularism and Consumption =>Consumerism changes.
    Also maybe Regious Fanaticism might work for Religious Intolerance?
    Anyway as for how the civics really work in the game (funny how you only got one post about the game mechanics and everything else is just about the 'icing on the cake' so to speak). . . I need to test them out first :D
  13. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Jul 14, 2003
    This looks great. Feudalism sounds over-powered. IMO it should be high upkeep.
  14. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Thanks for the suggestions everybody! I'm trying to produce quality work here, so thanks for helping me out. I'll take the name changes into consideration. The term "secularism" is better than "atheism". The use of the word "consumption" is the economist in me, so maybe, yes, "consumerism" is a more wide-spread term.

    As for balancing... in its first iteration, every civic had a negative side as well. I felt, however, that this may have over-complicated some things and caused the AI to behave in a strange fashion, and thus, I tried to impose penalties via upkeeps. Capitalism is a bit overpowered, but in history it has proven to be an overpowering economic system - it dominates everything else. Note, it does add factory unhappiness. Should it be toned down?

    Weasel Op - Yeah, I'll raise feudalism's upkeep too.

    Has anyone really tried it out yet, or is the file still broken? I need more feedback about balance issues. Thanks for everyone's help.
  15. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

    Nov 15, 2005
    New York + Shqypni
    Just by looking at the code, the new choices of civics look excellent!

    However, one suggestion. It seems to me that each new civic is better than the last ... perhaps some more balancing to make the civics accomplish different purposes instead of being better than others?

    I understand that some of the beginning civics should not be as good as ending civics, since technological progression obviously means improvement. However, Democracy seems way too powerful compared to a civic like Bureaucratic State.

    Great job, nonetheless!
  16. seasmath

    seasmath Bolos!

    Sep 26, 2005
    In the Cultural Value section, the Civic "Equality" has a huge, almost broken, bonus, provided that you can get enough food to have a size 36+ city.
  17. ArbitraryGuy

    ArbitraryGuy Rusty Shackleford?

    Jul 11, 2003
    Yes, perhaps bonus health would be better or give it a commerce penalty (- gold on towns or something?)... or... any other ideas for equality? Thanks.


    Thanks for the suggestion... yes, after playing a bit I too think democracy should be nerfed a bit. Perhaps just double tax rates? Any other suggestions?

    Personally, after someone figures out random events, I'd like to mod it so that democracy will have elections that can change civics, change tax rate, etc. But as for now, I have to stick with what can be done now.
  18. Mewtarthio

    Mewtarthio Emperor

    Apr 14, 2004
    A problem with Persecution: There is not any way to remove a religion from a city. It becomes a liability very quickly, and there is nothing you can do to reverse this. You can prevent it with Theocracy, but the bonus is too small to warrant this (not to mention all the multi-religion bonuses, like Temples and Cathedrals, you lose).
  19. MeteorPunch

    MeteorPunch #WINNING Supporter

    Jan 19, 2005
    Looks really promising. I'm gonna try it out.
  20. Dikaioma

    Dikaioma Warlord

    Nov 2, 2005
    Really good ideas here. Nice idea for the mod too ArbitraryGuy. You are right Master Kodama, Fanatisicm is rather broad. I believe Capitalism should increase pollution or even unhappiness.

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