Again, Provinces

[Ant509y]

I have to throw my support with Loaf about how provinces are formed. Granted, there are good ideas about the automatic formation, however, yes, controlling which cities are part of a province is something I'd prefer as well, for my own satisfaction. On that note, Sodasquad suggested the manual/automated choosing of cities in provinces be a togglable option. Maybe this is a good idea. If so, well, I'll choose manual every time, of course, but it might just work, don't you think? That shouldn't be too hard.

My own view on capturing provinces: when you capture a provincial capital, something more significant than simply capturing another city should take place. Same with capturing a national capital. Perhaps what could happen is similar to what Sodasquad said about it. When cities within a province are captured, they are simply that, captured, though as long as the provincial capital exists, they of course could try to rebel. (city flipping is something I want changed drastically, btw!) However, when a povincial capital is captured, you can either destroy the capital, or keep it. If it is kept, the cities originally from that province which you captured rejoin that province, and the cities from that province which you have not taken may become more likely to surrender, however, the province itself, with the original provincial capital, is likely to eventually rejoin its motherland in it's entirety. IF you burn the capital, the enemy province is destroyed, and the individual cities must fend for themselves. They won't surrender as easily, but it'll be a bit easier to keep them from rebelling against you, since their centralization point is gone. How does that sound?

 

[bed_head7]

Possibly there could be some compromise on controlling the establishment of provincial capitals. At the beginning, their would be a provincial capital pop-up similar to the one there is now for the FP. Depending a bit on map size, after a certain number of cities, you are asked if you would like to build a provincial capital, and are given a somewhat limited choice of where to build it, like in cities a certain distance from the capital with a certain population or with a cultural improvement, since those would be the natural choices for where to build. Once the first provincial capital is built, the capital is also established as a provincial capital, and the cities are assigned to their provinces based on location, with limited choice by the player (because cities would be chosed based upon the connections mentioned very early on this thread). Personally, I don't like the idea very much of having cities just outside of a province not being part of a province, so the process for forming new provinces would be similar, with a pop-up once a province has a certain number of cities. Perhaps, to avoid the abuses brought up, building new provincial capitals would be mandatory, to keep province sizes down.

The set limits for provinces would be more important if a system similar to what I described was adopted. They would need to be a bit more flexible than 3-6 cities, which I think is a bit unrealistic, especially considering that depending upon map size you could control 20% of the map and have 10 cities, or you could control 20% of the map and have 30 cities (I don't really know how close those estimates are, since I mostly play on standard maps). Anyway, I think cities per province should in some way reflect map size, just as the optimal number of cities before corruption gets really bad depends on the map.

One last thing, regarding rebellion. Like culture flips, there would be some element of chance, even if it is eight happy citizens of the same nationality with a temple flipping or a province 95% loyal rebelling. The rebellion aspect is more realistic than the culture flip here, though, because often times, in revolutions, it is a minority leading the change. Of course it is much more likely to happen if the majority wants change, but the American revolution was led by the minority, so it is certainly always a possibility.

 

[sodaquad]

I've looked again at Loaf's original idea and the other posts and revised my earlier plan. Sorry if it's a bit long. Some of the more controversial details are marked [???].

Provinces - Mark II


Provinces & Capitals
---------------------------

All cities belong to a province, all provinces belong to a civ. The Provincial Capital is the city in a province that has the provincial palace improvement. There can be only one provincial capital but it can be moved by rebuilding it in another city. The National Capital can be moved by rebuilding the national palace.


Effect of the Provincial Capital
---------------------------

Certain improvements made in the Provincial Capital act like 'mini-wonders' - they multiply the effect of similar improvements throughout the province. These would include those to do with crime/corruption (courthouse, police station), happiness (temple, cathedral, theatre), but not productivity, trade or science [why???]. This will have an effect on the province's culture.

For example - a courthouse in the Provincial Capital, the provincial courthouse, multiplies the effect of courthouses throughout the province, but has no effect on cities without a courthouse. A provincial courthouse costs no more to build than an ordinary one - it is the provincial palace that costs [???]. For this reason it may be worth the cost of moving a Provincial Capital.

The effect of a capital lessens with distance [???]. So, if a group of cities are distant enough it is worth starting a new province.


Colony-Provinces
---------------------------

In certain situations a province without a capital can arise (such as one or two cities alone on a new continent, or captured cities). A province without a capital runs as the colony of another province and does not enjoy the benefits of having a Provincial Capital [???]. When a colony-province gets big enough it can become a proper province.


New Cities, New Provinces
---------------------------

New cities join the nearest province.

A new city alone on a continent or island joins the province of its settler as a colony-province, additional cities on the same continent will then join it.

If a province has enough cities it can be split by building a new provincial capital. On completion the province advisor will offer a plan for the distribution of cities. The player can alter the plan.

[Automation???] If a province exceeds some maximum size the province advisor will suggest the split and offer a plan ("Why don't we build a palace in York and create Yorkshire?").

The AI will need to be able to form provinces for its own civs and the same logic would be applied for the suggested split, something like: cities are distributed depending on geography; East/West or North/South, the new provincial palace is built in the city with the greatest culture.


Captured & Lost Cities
---------------------------

The loss or gain of a Provincial Capital effects the culture of a province, making city defections more or less likely:

The first city captured in a province joins the province of the capturing unit as a colony-province (similar to building new cities on a new continent). Further captured cities join the first.

As with any colony-province it becomes possible to build a new capital if it is large enough. If the original Provincial Capital is captured, or defects, the colony-province rejoins it as a proper province.

If a Provincial Capital is lost, the remaining cities become a colony-province of the nearest proper province (which would make defection more likely).


Independence, Civil War
---------------------------

Unlike cities, provinces don't defect to other civs (except to join other rebel provinces, see below) and they cannot be traded, but they can become independent new nations. A province has an overall loyalty (or rebelliousness) rating that depends on things like:

[1] foreign culture, province culture, national culture
[2] happiness, wealth, crime/corruption
[3] foreign nationals in the province

If rebelliousness is very high (and cannot be satisfied with bribes) the province may demand independence. Independence has to be negotiated with the province governor. There would have to be some major benefits for agreeing: long lasting trade agreements, mutual protection, etc. [Commonwealth/Federation model] - and some major cost for not agreeing, like civil war.

Civil war. The province declares independence and either forms a new civ on its own or, if another, adjacent, province has already gained independence, then it will join it. The identity and traits of the new civ depend on the number of foreign nationals, traits of the original civ and geography. The new civ goes into a state of war with its 'parent' civ.

Colony-provinces can rebel if they are large enough to form a proper province, and, without a Provincial Capital, they would be more likely to do so because of unhappiness, cultural pressure, etc.

 

[sodaquad]

A few footnotes
---------------------------

This plan is probably far too detailed, I'm sure we all want to be surprised by the new game, and anyway, we don't know what new things will be in CivIV - religion might play some part in regional identity, for example.

Some issues are not addressed here: effect of government type, trade between provinces, pooled production. I've tried to incorporate ideas from the thread, but please rewrite it anyway - it's not 'my precious'.

Provinces will be less likely to rebel if you build the Napoleonic Code wonder [or something???].

The minimum and maximum sizes for a province should be settable as part of a scenario and probably depend on the size of the map. The player ought to be able to override these values [???].

There could be an overall setting for regionalism. If it is set low provinces are large and their loyalty high, in which case they would not be a major feature of a game. But, if regionalism is set high civs would tend to fragment and there would be a lot of civil war. Regionalism might be one variable that is used to create higher, harder, levels of the game.

 

[Ant509y]

Alright then, I'll place my own detailed overview of provinces. Much is similar to yours, sodasquad, but much is also different. Here it goes:

Provinces, rough draft:

Overview: Provinces are groups of cities set up into sections below the national level. These sets have their own culture, identity, and special abilities. Cities do not have to be part of provinces, and could instead be colonies. These colonies act more similar to cities now in Civ 3, at least more like the ones far away.

Creation of Provinces: Provinces would hold usually between 3-6 cities, possibly 3-7 or 3-8, depending on the size of the game. They would be created by the building of a provincial capital improvement. The national capital would technically count as the first provincial capital. When you create cities, you can choose whether to join them to this capital province from the get go, at least for awhile. Once 6 or more cities are created, however, you are told you can create a provincial capital, which can be built in a city not joined to the capital province. When you create provincial capitals, a province is formed, and you can choose which cities that are not already in a province, but are near that city, to join with it. It is controlled by you, unless you want it to be automated, which you could toggle in the opening. (See sodasquad's post above for great ideas on the automated variation).

Effects of the Province: What the province would do is section off your cities into smaller groups, more easily managed. They would lower corruption, be able to pool excess production between them, albeit in a limited way, tag military units so that they belong to the province, not just the nation (useful for civil wars, below), have trade between provinces, and on the provincial advisor screen show all sorts of things, such as what is needed, etc. A province, if you focus on a single or only a few aspects of it, such as agriculture, production, or military, will end up with a sub trait over time (same as the original 8 traits) that give limited benefits to that sort of operation, but can also alienate provinces from each other.

Provincial Trade: Provinces that have resources within them trade with other provinces that do not. This is done automatically, without you needing to set up trade routes. Each province trades with the province which possesses that resource automatically, and while they do not lose commerce, the province that has the resource gains bonus commerce for every other province that trades with it. However, if several provinces both have the same resource, the other provinces trade with the one they are friendlier with. Therefor, it would be split on lines that could show you which province was under the influence of which others, useful to see who would rebel if a province declared itself independant. When trading a resource with another nation, the bonuses are even greater, but again only for the province that has that particular resource that you are trading.

Provincial Advisor: This would tell you the culture of each province, as well as the capital, each province's sub-trait, their military strength in numbers and particular units, as well as the thing they believe they need most pressing [infrastructure, cultural improvements, scientific improvements, etc.]

Provincial Military: Each military unit created 'belongs' to it's province. It says the name of the province after the unit name. This is done so that if a civil war breaks out, those units will join the new nation alongside their province, to give them a military to begin with. Here's hoping the province you build for strickly military uses doesn't desert you!

I am not done yet... I shall continue this later!

 

[Ant509y]

Sorry, to continue:

Civil Wars: The provinces would have a sort of Rebel Sentiment (real name pending) which would tell how close they are to rebellion. the higher the rebel sentiment, the less it will take to make a province rebel, and possibly take several others with it if it is a powerful province. When provinces rebel, they enter a sort of civil war mode, which gives them the color which is half yours, half white, to indicate the split. It will be some turns before they are declared independant, which basically happens when you give up, or enough other countries recognize them as independant, whichever happens first. If you beat them, however, they will stay under your banner. The amount of rebel sentiment is decided for the same things that Sodasquad said.

Province Capturing: When you invade an enemy province, and take their cities, they simply become 'colonies' of yours, perhaps just with a different name. However, when you take their provincial capital, you have the choice to destroy the capital or keep it. Destroying it will allow you a higher chance of keeping the cities you have taken, though enemy cities that were once part of that province almost definitely won't surrender, but if you keep it, there is a high chance that the cities that were part of the province will surrender, but there is a chance that the whole province will rebel if the war rages too long. This applies to the player, as well.

I can't think of any more right now... I'l lcontinue later!

 

[sodaquad]

Creation of Provinces
I probably didn't make it clear enough - In my Mark II forming provinces is as manual or automatic as you like.

If you want lots of control build a provincial capital, when it's complete an advisor will pop up and offer a little map showing the boundaries of the new provinces, you can move the boundaries as you like (I imagine the boundary line would snap to city boundaries), then choose a name for the new province from a pop-up menu or type in your own, and click OK.

If you want to play it lazy, wait until your province gets very big (by which time the province will problems like corruption) and eventually an advisor will pop up and offer a plan for a split that will include not just the distribution of cities but the location of the the capital too. Say yes to everything the advisor says and construction of the new provincial palace will begin.

Effects of the Province
I like your idea of provinces developing individual traits. Maybe we should have major and minor traits, civs have major traits which would set aggression, expansion, science, religiosity (is that a word?), and other 'attitudes'. Provinces have minor traits to do with 'ability', a province with a lot of sea might develop seafaring, lots of grassland might indicate agriculture and so on.

Provincial Trade:
I agree that some provinces might be wealthier that others, provided that it doesn't get too complicated, there are some ideas about trade in other threads.

Provincial Military, Civil Wars
Units have a provincial identity, yes. I worry that if a single province rebels it might be too easily squashed by the forces of all the other provinces combined which is why rebelling provinces should combine into a single new civ. Perhaps under republic/democracy denying a province independence would cause unhappiness everywhere (Example: there was huge popular support for Indian independence in Britain).

Colonies:
I've never built a colony in CivIII, mainly because I don't know how to, it requires some combination of control keys that I can't find on my Apple Mac. If I want a resource I build a city. Am I alone in this? Do you find CivIII style colonies useful? Or realistic? I feel that a 'colony' ought to be a group of distant cities, a special kind of province.

Sodaquad (sodium+quadraat... don't ask, it's too obscure)

 

[sir_schwick]

PROVINCE CREATION:

"Provincial Capitol" would be the structure required. The province cities are all cities whose cultural borders touch or overlap the cultural borders of the provincial capital. This means very-high culture cities could draw in huge provinces. This system makes sense because the provincial capital is a source of pride. No new cities are added once cultural borders start growing. Borders of provinces are determined the same way national ones, only with neighboring provinces as nations. Distance between a province city and the square. If distance equal, culture is next factor.

PROVINCE ABILITIES:

All provinces have individual tax rates, mobilization levels, government. This allows you to keep rebellious or poor provinces happy. It allows you to have money or research rich provinces. Mobilization would allow you to only mobilize industrial provinces(think Great Lakes). Government would allow you to use more military police freindly governments in rebellious provinces(Martial Law with a different name).

PROVINCE HISTORY:

After 100 years cities in a province start generating "provincial culture". This culture does not affect borders or add to civilization culture. It also does not add to allegiance to the civ, but does increase resistance when invaded or rebelling.
Once provincial culture reaches certain landmarks, new province special abilites become avaliable.
100 Culture - Can build "Provincial Culture Small Wonder" in province capital. Generates regular and pc.
500 Culture - "Provincial Patriots" allows one unhappiness free draft for the defence of that particular province. Generates unhappiness if it leaves province.
1000 Culture - Generate a Provincial GL. Can only be used in province.
2000 Culture - Designate a Province UU. It should be a choice of options of any unit a city in the province can build.
3000 Culture - Designate a Province UU.
4000 Culture - Designate a Province UU.

 

[Ant509y]

Well, sodaquad, thanks for the clarification, so now I see how the part with the computer's choice of how the province forms works. Good.

Also, yeah, a provincial trait would develop over time. Perhaps it simply starts out as on of the two civ traits, then can become different over time as its preferences change?

About colonies, I do not mean the type we have now. I'm using the name of colonies for cities outside of a province. There's probably a better name, so help me out with it. And actually, I do sometimes use colonies. When my city has no temple or anything, and I know I will not be building for for awhile, and the new resource that just popped up is riiiight outside my city limits, I create a colony. About cIV colonies, I want them to be improved greatly, be changed, or something!

About provincial trade, most of what I said would be automated... you'd have no more direct control than you do now. I'm leaving all the complicated stuff to the computer!

to Sir-Schwick: You have some interesting ideas about provincial culture. However, the idea of a provincial UU does not appeal to me. Some of them, like a provincial GL do, as well as provincial patriots, do appeal to me, however. However, I would think it could be done differantly than you thought for it... I must admit, though, bonuses might be a good thing... as long as they are not too powerful, or too common.

 

[sir_schwick]

to Sir-Schwick: You have some interesting ideas about provincial culture. However, the idea of a provincial UU does not appeal to me. Some of them, like a provincial GL do, as well as provincial patriots, do appeal to me, however. However, I would think it could be done differantly than you thought for it... I must admit, though, bonuses might be a good thing... as long as they are not too powerful, or too common.

When I looked at it, 3 provincial UUs were a bit much. I would probably change the pay schedule(leaving out UUs altogether) to:
2000 pc = Can start building Provincial Small Wonders
3000 pc = Choose one provincial trait
4000 pc = Choose second provincial trait

Provincial traits would be from the same list as the other traits, however, w/e someone conquered parts of the province, those traits would remain behind(as long as natives were majority in non-resistance).

These Provincial wonders would eliminate some of the bigger ones and change some improvments. Here are examples:

Provincial Border Wall:
Cost would be based on number of border tiles of province. Would take entire turn for non-ROP units to cross. Also adds bonus of 100% to friendlies when defending across it from non-ROP troops(no protection against sneak attacks).
Whenever all provinces that are only seperated by other provinces from the core province have a PBW, then you have a Great Wall, which will generate tons of culture and increase defence and negotiating leverage.

Ancient Highways:
Cost would be based on number of tiles in province. Would make all tiles connected by roads seem like one tile. If a city was attacked and no defenders in that city, other units in province could come(pop-up asks you first) and continue the defence. Works same for intrustions across PBW. Only condition is unit started in province.

Modern Highways:
Cost would be based on number of tiles in province. Same affect as Ancient Highways, but allows sharing of shields(with slight waste penalty) and increases trade in all squares with roads/railroads.

Regional Dam:
Requires a river in the province. Cost is based on population and size of province. Maintenance based on improvements, population, and agricultural activities. Acts as a clean power plant in every city in province. Can only service provinces up to a certain size.

Regional Nuclear Plant:
Requires a water source(river/ocean). Cost and maintenance same factors as Dam. Acts as clean power plant to every city in province. Can service any size province.

Entertainment Complex:
THe name will change based on civ and time period. Cost based on number of cities in province. Creates a total of 4 happy faces(home city) + # of other province cities. THese happy faces go w/e you want them to, but automatically they are 4 for home city, 1 for the rest. Most of the time you will leave be, but sometimes its good for maintaining a couple metros.

Religious Marvel:
Some examples from Civ III include Sistine CHapel, Oracle, JC Bachs Cathedral. THe effects would be chosen from a list that would grow w/e you researched techs. However, your civ can only use each benefit once. If another civ captures the province, and has a religious marvel of their own with the same affect, they still get the bonus in this province. Most of the effects are happiness related.

Great Edifice:
Sears Tower, Empire State Building, etc. These are like the Religious Marvel, but instead the effects are monetarily related(like Wall Street).

Great Breakthrough:
If you research a tech and no one else has it, then you can build this small wonder. Once someone gets the tech, the wonder can no longer be built. If you manage to build it before then it counts. The effects would be good(possibly involving UUs) and each tech would have a unique one. Limit one per province.

Irrigation Network:
Requires a river. Cost is based on # of Desert tiles in province. This in effect turns all desert tiles into plains tiles. It also turns swamps into forests(draining). Also turns some plains into grassland(shield).

That's all and thanx for listening to my rant.

 

[dexters]

It's strange how so many people seem to converge on this. It looks like a highly requested item for Civ4, at least among Civ fanatics. I had written a post about Provinces about 2 years ago (before PTW even hit stores) at Apolyton with the same general concept.

I want to caution however, as the previous poster noted, of making the game too unmanageable and too arbitrary in how provinces are formed for example.

I think many people want to see what we can loosely agree on as 'segments' within the larger Civ, which could allow for civil wars, successions, and trading of entire blocks of an empire. But to create essentially, a mini dominion for each province may be a bit too much. Putting an emphasis on satisfying each province to prevent rebellion may also detract from the Civ experience.

Keep in mind that Civilization is not a tactical managerial game, its a more sweeping psuedo historial game and getting bogged down in micromanagement is probably not what many of us want in the late game anyways, and it is already a problem for many people with the current Civ3 configuration.

Given this, if provinces are introduced, it should be in a format that can help ease the management burden for the players. One really good suggestion I've read is to provide 'pronvicial buildings' which are city improvements that give province wide benefits. Rather than building ten stock exchanges, you build one.

 

[sir_schwick]

This idea really was not originally designed for provinces, but rather a more realistic metropolis model. However, I think some modifications and ammendments could make it fit better for the purpose of provinces.

Here is the thread.

If you bother reading that thread, you could also integrate the idea of 'city unique culture'. The idea is that while cities and metropolises belong to a larger overall culture of a civ, they do not have an identical and interchangeable culture. Calcutta and Bombay culture are not the same, even though both are major cities in India. Also, the numbers I will be using are arbitrary for explanation purpose, not implementation purpose.
Each turn a city generates Unique Culture Points, or ucp. The ucpt is equal to the Cultural Influence of the city, not the cpt the city generates. So when a city/metro is >10 it is at 1 ucpt, and so on. Cities of the same civ each recieve ucp from that city(Delphi for this example, it will generate 1 ucp) equal to the ucpt. Cities of foreign civs get 1/2 ucpt. Delphi would get double the ucpt(it is the home city after all). As the ucp from Delphi accumulates in other cities, there would be bonuses to Delphi. 1) Once the ucp was high enough, unhappy citizens from that city could migrate to Delphi if they would be happy in Delphi. 2) Once high enough and in large enough cities, there would be a Little Delphi, which would increase ucpt for Delphi in that city. 3) Once high enough in Delphi, any resources within the worker radius would be resources unique to that city. 4) Once high enough you could get some city UUs. 5) Once high enough you could build some cultural city-unique wonders. 6) Could lead to eventual sepratism, especially if not the capital.
Besides being calculated automatically, you would still have some control over this. It would add a dimension to stances with other nations. Now you would also have a 'cultural stance'. You could be 'closed society', 'open society', 'cultural exchange'.
A closed society gives no UCP to the target civ and recives non from them. Good for culturally weak civs.
An open society trades at the 1/2 rate listed above.
A cultural exchange would treat the treaty civs cities as domestic(full rate) and vice versa.

Most of this is behind the scenes, but you could check what kind of cities influence your major city or metropolis.

 

[PeteAtoms]

I kinda just skimmed through this thread (great ideas, im all for em) so if i suggest something thats already suggested i apologize:

1.Change the names of governors of cities to mayors and then make the governor the "automated leader guy" of the whole province so you could tell the governor to do stuff in provinces and then then mayors of individual cities, if there wer conflict between the governor and mayor i think that the mayor would prevail (just for more micromanagement without acually "micromanaging")

2. Definitely the Provincial Advisor Screen (its a must)

3.On the Provincial advisor screen you should be able to toggle the different luxury and tech output sliders for each province, you could see the income of each province and adjust as needed and as for the tech advancement, you would advance in the overall total of tech research being done. This way if one province os on the verge of rebelling you could boost the luxury output, or if a province is full of universities and libraries you could boost scientific funding.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Colonies:
I've never built a colony in CivIII, mainly because I don't know how to, it requires some combination of control keys that I can't find on my Apple Mac. If I want a resource I build a city. Am I alone in this? Do you find CivIII style colonies useful? Or realistic? I feel that a 'colony' ought to be a group of distant cities, a special kind of province.

Thats the same way i feel, colonies should be considered a distant minor city. The current model of colonies could definitely be expanded on.

 

[EddyG17]

Maybe the tarraing of your empire could in a way determine which cities belong to a province.
Ex. you can not have a city in a province if there is a mountain range in between or if there is a river.
I'll post a picture explaining what i just have said

 

[PeteAtoms]

thats a good idea but it didnt stop the british and the dutch from having provinces/colonies across oceans

 

[sir_schwick]

No, but it let those colonies easily establish a regionalist sentiment. That is a big reason why the Americas did revolt in the 18th century, they were no longer Enlgish but New Englanders.

Look at my post a couple up, an idea similair to my system could be used to help determine province.

 

[dh_epic]

Just want to say that colonial-regions/provinces are as important to me as "equal" provinces. It's definitely an interesting part of history that ought to be simulated -- not because it would make the game more emersive or real, but because it would open up so much strategy. You only have to look at Portugal, Spain, France, England, and Holland competing on the World Stage.

 

[EddyG17]

this is the picture
As you can see, the provinces have been divided beacuse there is a river in the middle and/or there a mountains. what you think?

 

[dh_epic]

If it's automated, that's cool with me. If it divides borders by ethnicity that's even cooler. The more provinces are automated the better, in my opinion.

And leave it to the player to deal with the new group issues that emerge. (e.g.: across the river, we deal with a lot more corruption... e.g.: in our Spanish province, we deal with a lot more war weariness)