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Against the Wall feedback

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Official Scenarios' started by Kael, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
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    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    Post your feedback for this scenario here.
     
  2. euripides

    euripides Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Germany
    Hi there,
    I think this scenario is really hard. Compared to the Momus, you have no time for breathing, and the hippus guys tech amazingly fast (LBows on turn 150). biggest problem i see is the rather bad starting position: Most of the resources visible a too far away from each other to get in a good capital fat cross and i got only one resource near the river site (and no floodplain either).
    Probabely shouldn´t have started with 2 cities and bought more techs. this setup really was dragging me to a slow grind.
    It would be nice to have copper guaranteed in the starting zone, because expansion is very hard (dangerous) and copper warriors are the only hope i see so far.
    ok, enough whining. I better win this thingy now (went back to prince difficulty)
     
  3. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,636
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Most scenarios have random resources.
     
  4. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
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    Sweden
    Okey, this one was a little harsh, wasn't it? (this was meant to be ironic;))

    Hmm, I fear that I will be either go all the way down to warlord level (perhaps even settler) or do some WB cheat before I close this one:sad:
     
  5. Jie

    Jie The Jie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    NYC
    The increasing difficulty on this was insane, I had to scale down to noble to win this. Which wasn't as fun since I won before it hit Deity. When I started off at Prince level, I got schooled usually around 200nd turn. The lack of longbow hurts badly. I played this map many times, only a few times was there any copper or iron nearby.
     
  6. RogueThunder

    RogueThunder Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    173
    Map feels... Very meh. Hard to defend, poor resources, not even all that good of city locations except VERY rarely.

    Concept. I like. I actually had less trouble with the forces attacking me, and more finding a 5th city location even in best circumstances.

    Havent beaten it yet, but should next try. Last attempt fell apart half way through the 100 count.
     
  7. DioBrando

    DioBrando Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    207
    You REALLY want us to hate the hippus, don't you?
     
  8. Schmoe

    Schmoe Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    143
    I'm working on this one now. I've got about 40 turns left to hold out, and it's turn 185 in the game. I think it's doable, even though the difficulty is at Immortal right now, as my stacks of Dwarven Slingers and copper Axemen on hills are pretty tough to crack. I'm starting to see iron Longbows and Champions, but I've yet to see a siege engine (thank the lords).

    I started at Prince difficulty. I normally play on Monarch.

    This was my first time ever using an advanced start, so I made some mistakes, but here's what I had: 1 Settler, Population 3, 1 Culture expansion, 1 Worker, a Winery, a scout and some warriors. I'm sure that many players who aren't familiar with advanced starts (like me) will make mistakes here.

    I'll describe what I've done that has worked well, the lucky events I've had that have helped, and my thoughts.

    First, with only one exception, I founded all of my cities on hills. The extra defense has certainly made a difference, and it complements the slingers well. The exception was a mistake, but it's virtually surrounded by rivers, so it has worked out for me.

    Next, I teched for farms first, then God King, then Archery. I figured that I would want some rock-solid defenders for my hill cities, and I was right. The Dwarven Slingers have been awesome. The hawks from the Hunting pre-req have also been invaluable. In a normal game where I'm more concerned with the long game, I'll usually make the economy more of a priority, but I wanted the be able to defend my new cities with confidence, and I honestly had no idea what sort of opposition I would be facing. For my tech in this game, Education didn't come until after Archery, Bronzeworking, and Way of the Earthmother. Economy has come from Wineries, river-side farms and mines, Elder Councils, and Temples of Kilmorph.

    I tried to found cities fairly quickly. I had my 5th city up and running by turn 125 or so. Starting with an extra settler helped here. If I had thought more about the increasing difficulty level, I probably could have gotten my 5th city up another 10-15 turns faster. It's not really clear from the scenario description, but I think speed in founding cities is a crucial part of winning the scenario.

    I've had some lucky events, and I don't know if they were scripted or not, but they seemed to fit the scenario perfectly.

    1. I popped Mining from a goody hut
    2. I rescued a Thane of Kilmorph from a dungeon, and founded RoK about 40 turns earlier than I otherwise would have.
    3. Other than the Thane, my luck with dungeons was abysmal. I probably lost 80% of my explorers to dungeons, due to powerful enemies and just plain "Your unit never returns".

    Having said all that, here are some of my random observations and musings.

    1. I initially had thoughts of building some forts and garrisoning them in strategic chokepoints. But I still haven't researched Construction, and there just seem to be too many avenues around the chokepoints. I haven't yet been able to justify splitting my forces enough to provide a meaningful garrison in all the places I would need a fort.

    2. There doesn't seem to be a lot of variety in the resources. I have quite a few food resources, but very few happy resources. There's some cotton, but it was too far away to reasonably pursue. Thankfully I have gold from the palace, but I haven't seen gems, silk, sugar, or any of the other usual suspects anywhere.

    3. The civ-spell (gold for mines) was very helpful for keeping my vaults full. I got 225 gold from it, and my vaults have been at least abundant most of the game.

    4. Researching Knowledge of the Ether was a mistake. I thought I had Enchantment mana from the palace for some reason, so that's why I wanted Adepts. Unfortunately, it's Law, not Enchantment, and there's not really time to add a more useful mana type. I should have instead gone after Poisons. I haven't yet seen a siege engine, but if I see a stack of Catapults coming my way, I'm in deep doo-doo.

    5. The Clan of Embers plays an interesting role. They start pretty close, and present a constant obstacle to expansion. If it weren't for the clan, there would be a lot more breathing room in the early game. I don't know if they are supposed to present an easy source of XP, but they have been quite a challenge so far. I razed on of their cities that encroached too close to me, and I entertained thoughts of launching a campaign against them, but the Hippus started showing up before I could act on it.

    6. I really like all the hills in the starting area. I have tons of mines and my production has been very respectable.

    7. Defensive strikes rock! They are a very nice addition to archery units, and it makes the Drill promotion much more worthwhile.

    8. There's a level 6 iron champion from Tasunke wandering around. That makes me worried.

    9. A dwarven slinger with Combat 1, Guerrila 1, and Drill 1 in a walled city on a hill makes me happy.

    10. It might help if the scenario makes it more clear that enemies are growing rapidly in strength even while you are trying to found your cities. Being unfamiliar with how scenarios work, I wasn't sure if there were several large, fixed armies held back somewhere that would be triggered once I founded my 5th city, or if the whole scenario was a race against time. The description focuses on holding your 5 cities, not on founding them quickly, so it sort of encourages you not to found your 5th until you're in a position of strength.

    So, with 40 turns left, I'm still not certain that I'll win, but I like where I'm sitting. My hawks tell me that there's no imminent stack of doom within 10-15 turns of me, and I'm about to finish researching Arete. After that, I'm still trying to decide whether to go after Poisons and Assassins, or to turn off science to jack up my vaults to stocked (for the +10% :hammers:s) and have money to upgrade my warriors. It could be a critical decision, as my forces aren't strong enough to counter-attack the champions and longbows that are common now, and I have no means to defeat a stack of catapults at the moment. My only worry is that even if I do go for Poisons, it would be too little too late.

    All in all, I'd say it has been a fun, well-balanced scenario so far. I'll let you know if I still feel the same way 40 turns from now :)
     
  9. petcarcharodon

    petcarcharodon Sheaim Archmage

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
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    Location:
    Everywhere... and Nowhere.
    I just got an event where I got a ceasefire offer from the Hippus, which ended the war that started again in less than a second. :lol:
     
  10. reverend oats

    reverend oats King

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
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    641
    Location:
    Uberwald
    I think the trick is to get your cities as quickly as possible. I bought three from square 1, and as soon as I could I settled the next two. I teched mining, agriculture, RoK, BW, and then arete and archery. Bronzed warriors and axes did a great job until I started seeing longbows, around turn 100. Then I got Mines of Gal-dur and it was smooth sailing from there on out. I had large stacks of slingers and axes in cities with around 90% boni. Eventually the AI didn't even try to attack them, once I got some guys with Guerilla 2. I never saw anything worse than longbows, and I won around turn 160. I thought this was a very fun scenario.
     
  11. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2007
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    1,139
    I manages to somehow survive this mad scenario. I think finishing off Barbarian Assault was the one that allowed me to survive (barely) for the requisite hundred turns. Never even got bronze working or archery; I survived via masses of warriors, palisades, and building all my cities on hills.
    Ye gods, it was raining Hippus! Had to open up my soundtrack folder labeled "in case of emergency," to boot. Usually not even Auric earns that honor...
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Giving yourself a few dragons makes this scenario a lot easier. That's the only way I've managed to finish it. :p
     
  13. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    I did it by lower the difficulty to warlord, build my cities close to each other, didn't give a damn about tech besides mining and bronzeworking and then I built cannon fodder, or should it be called orc fodder, axe fodder. My economy was almost ruined at the end, but I managed.
     
  14. R0GERSHRUBBER

    R0GERSHRUBBER Shrubber

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
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    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    I think he is exactly right, but resources are another key; I reloaded a couple times until I had a decent city cross (Wine, Cattle, Corn, on a hill), but there was no Bronze even close enough for a second city.

    I played on Normal/Noble, and thought I was making a pretty good run, but when the waves of Champions and Longbows were coming at all 5 cities, I could not build/upgrade Warriors fast enough to hold them off. I opted for using my Advanced Start to tech to Ancient Chants + Mysticism for God King, and I was able to keep my vaults at Abundant most of the game and no lower than Stocked for very briefly.

    Overall it's a fun scenario with fairly good terrain albeit marginal resources. I would like a few more choke points and perhaps some scripted events to introduce some interesting possibilities (e.g. perhaps the possibility of an early truce with the Clan)
     
  15. Jie

    Jie The Jie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
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    57
    Location:
    NYC
    Not knowing the FFH lore so well, I never understood why everyone was attacking the Khazard in this scenario, maybe some kind of explanation behind it? The intro & ending doesn't' really tell you why.
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Well...they're rich! Plus they aren't that used to defending themselves. Isn't that reason enough?
     
  17. Kolath

    Kolath Eternal Lurker

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    Agree that this one could really use some more scripted events to give it more flavor. Also I would appreciate some explanation of why everyone in the world has allied to kill you.
     
  18. Schmoe

    Schmoe Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
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    I definitely agree. I thought it was very odd that all the AI's were allied. Why were Hanna and Jonas allied? Why were Tasunke and Jonas allied? In fact, it might be fun if there were some way to turn Jonas against the others.

    I'll also repeat myself that the initial description of the scenario really needs to point out that speed in founding your cities is just as important as holding onto them once you've founded them. In fact, it's probably the crucial strategic factor in determining how successful you are. Once you have 7 allied Deity-level AI's all at war with you, you won't last long.

    I ended up finally winning my game. It was about turn 230 and the AI's had been Deity since turn 200 (I started on Prince). By the end, I was routinely seeing Mithril-backed Berserkers and Champions, and I was bleeding 30 gpt even with 100% taxes and markets and Temples of Kilmorph in every city. The AI hadn't come close to cracking one of my cities, but it was only a matter of time. Given how fast the AI was ramping up, I'd say I had another 30 or so turns left in me.

    Final summary: Aside from a little more guidance on strategy, perhaps a few minor events for flavor, and some explanation for the AI alliance, it's a very nice scenario.
     
  19. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
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    Ahch-To
    I just started this scenario. My fisrt feedback is that there is an bug.

    My capitol did not start with a Dwarven Vault. This is a key feature of the Khazaad and it is missiong. I think it may be from the advanced start.
     
  20. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    If I recall, dwarven vaults take a turn or two to be placed in any advanced start.
     

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