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Against the Wall feedback

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Official Scenarios' started by Kael, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
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    Wow...this one is tough.

    The always war is bad enough.

    Allied AI players make it worse.

    The difficulty level going up makes it impossible to beat without (and very difficult with) cheating.
     
  2. EmptyWolf

    EmptyWolf Priest of Winter

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    Jul 31, 2008
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    Manitoba, Canada
    KillerClowns...I'm very interested in acquiring info on the contents of this so called "In case of emergency" soundtrack folder... It sounds like something I could use. 'Truth be told I'm convinced you only won because of that folder. Hmm I'll offer to buy information on the contents of that treasure chest for..say 40 gold? (already got it in Basleraph as that seems to be your favoured currency)

    Surviving this terrifying heart-pounding ordeal felt like my Khazad were the victims of some kind of genocidal conspiracy against the dwarves as the Hippus were in league with the Clan and the Barbs, and they all seemed to be beyond fanatical in wiping out the Khazad (Why!? What did us Dwarves do to you people!?) The settings for my playthrough were. (emperor difficulty/normal speed) -yes that's right emperor. I rushed out 5 cities ASAP all on hills, palisades up ASAP, and then WARRIORS and more warriors. My rule of thumb was at the VERY least 20 warriors each city, 30 is more ideal. Once you've got a decent cultural territory cast motherlode as those hills will give you extra movement and slow down the enemy. Also, try to pack your cities together as tightly as possible all on hills.

    My always on civic were God King+Religion+Apprenticeship+Conquest+no membership. My economy focused on hammers/gold and food entirely. Farms, farms, farms, and mines. You can forget about researching too since filling your vaults with gold is more important than filling your head with knowledge. The farms/conquest/apprentice/godking setup combined with dwarven vaults meant I was pumping out seasoned warriors very very very fast in multiple cities.

    As for when you get axemen...about four or five per city will do. They will inevitably die, so therefore it is more effective to continue on warriorspamming mindlessly.
    When faced with the option of building wonders...DON'T BUILD IT (unless you are sure you have the time/warriors to spare)! Warriors are more important. Remember it'll all be over as soon as those 100 turns are up and you won't last that long if you have a shortage of warriors due to wasting time on trying to build the great library...(why would you even desire such a thing!?) Yes this strategy allows you to withstand those pesky Hippus hordes on Emperor difficulty/normal speed.

    And with the above strategy, your techrate will be so low it might cause you physical pain and it feels nothing like a regular FFH game. Khazad cities in Against the Wall are more like Forts training nothing but warriors. (but I don't blame 'em)
     
  3. tiberion02

    tiberion02 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2007
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    73
    Finished this up with Runes supplying gold to keep my 10-15 unit per 3 major city army going. Had about 5-7 slingers and 5-7 iron axeman (Galdur) with all cities on hills and across rivers and 2 weaker cities up in the more barren north. I was kind of disappointed that will all the Hippus, about 95% of the attacking force was made up of Axeman/Longbow/Champions.
     
  4. Kenjister

    Kenjister Swimmer

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    Dec 27, 2008
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    SoCal
    Whoa... this scenario really requires some good planning. I almost made it on my first try, I had settled all on hills and built all the defensive buildings , but I expanded too early and delayed Exploration so my vaults began to empty and I had to pull my slider down to 0% before I got Hunting. I lost one of my cities with only 10 turns left :mad:
    so I tried it again and went pretty much straight for archery, and managed to fit in 6 cities thanks to an immigrant event. I pulled a victory out of that one pretty easily. I think once you get Dwarven Slingers the game's pretty much set. the first and defensive strikes really keep them alive and since they're not melee, the enemy champions don't get the 25% bonus vs them.
    now time for me to go up the level!

    on a side note, maybe the immigrant event should be disabled for this scenario as it is pretty game breaking, even if it does come later. an extra city planted in your territory can really save you
     
  5. nihonjeff

    nihonjeff Chieftain

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    Dec 14, 2007
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    Los Angeles
    What I found was that if you tech too high, your score goes up, and so does the difficulty. I built my five cities right off the bat and teched to Bronze Working and Construction, cranking out enough Warriors and Axemen to stave off the Hippus and Clan. Once I had Construction, I built forts at all the chokepoints, stocked them with Axemen and some Trebuchets, and set my Science slider to 0% to support my army. I don't think my difficulty ever went higher than Monarch, despite me being able to handily defeat any force the enemy sent.

    My first game went quite differently, with me trying to scramble up the tech ladder and facing ever-mounting hordes. I got wiped out before I even *built* the five cities.
     
  6. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    Does the increasing difficulty setting require the player to be in the lead, or is it on a timer that goes up automatically after a certain number of turns regardless of score?
     
  7. Kenjister

    Kenjister Swimmer

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    I belive this one has the increasing difficulty setting on (same one as in the epic game) so maybe it increases every 50 turns?
    but then again it seems like it went up faster to me. so maybe it's flexible difficulty and since you have to have 5 cities you always in the top third?
    or maybe Kael made a different system just to watch us get all confused over it :p
     
  8. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    Nov 16, 2007
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    CheeseLand, Lyon
    AArrghh !!! Till 85 turns to go, immortal foes, giant stacks everywhere... We will show them how real dwarves die !!!
     
  9. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Chieftain

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    Really enjoyed this one, some nice chokes a little bit out from your territory, so you can feed the AI to a killing zone fairly readily (I cut down the forests by the SE river and sat on the hills pummeling all comers).

    Bought three cities and three scouts (one worker - maybe a mistake, as it took a while to get the techs to make him productive) to start. Scouts were nice as the map is pretty open early, and you need the gold from huts to fill your vault. Seemed like all the dungeons were bad news tho - only trigger those if my unit was surrounded and I wanted to open a stink bomb.

    Waited to build 4th and 5th cities until vault was in good shape, by which I mean producing extra happiness and production bonuses.

    One thing I think people are missing is that Thorne is Industrious. Build those cheap GodKing wonders. I went for Writing and the GL after the worker techs, and those two free Sages were golden while I was filling up my vault running 50% sci. Form of the Titan, Bone Palace, etc... are really nice. Had to build the Mines to get iron, and from then I was good.

    I did go for Adepts with Necromancy for Rust to take the edge off all those iron weapons, but I don't know how important that was. By then I had a killing zone set up with Bambur and a random axe that got repair somehow keeping a stack of Trebs repaired every turn. Even at only ten percent Command chance, with enough Stonewardens, I did manage to put together a nice collection of Longbows and Horse Archers without ever researching Archery!
     
  10. snarko

    snarko DLLer

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    Same here. It also booted their units from my territory.
     
  11. Volapyk

    Volapyk Chieftain

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    First I must I just loved this map and every second spent playing it, the lay out is absolutely brilliant.

    The increasing difficulty makes it a very interesting game and I actually had to give it two tries before succeeding.

    First game I had it on marathon game speed, not having read the scenario description thoroughly it didn't take long before the game went from emperor to deity making it a lot harder for me. An unexpected bonus were the 100 turns are a lot less on marathon, the AI didn't even manage to get champions up, but still found me overwhelmed fairly quickly.

    My strategy of first going for agriculture to get plenty of food, and then mining and bronze working for some axemen. Cities on hills defended with axemen all promoted with guerrilla can take most the enemy threw at them.
    However as noted early they were simply overrun by sheer numbers.

    Second try was a lot easier, had better resources in my capitol and knowing I was relatively safe from any rush, the enemy starting too far away, I sent my starting units out scouting. A few goody huts later I found my vaults to be stocked and a free tech of mining. With my research well ahead I took the opportunity to found RoK religion, the extra culture and gold from the temples proved invaluable later on, and the wonder giving free iron made my Axemen capable of dealing with even the champions that came later on.
    With a base strength of 6, at least 2 guerrilla upgrades for 100% a defensive bonus, a city placed on a hill with palisades, walls, archery range and some culture for another ~100% bonus they proved an unbreakable wall.

    Trying to stop the enemy from pillaging the surrounding country side was the hardest challenge, I had placed my 4 other cities around my capitol so they usually never made into the center of my realm, so all my economy had to come from there. Trying to hold choke points without building a city there was almost pointless as the sheer numbers late game meant that it just didn't pay off. As noted with all my cities laying around my capitol having a strike force stationed there ready to answer any challenge saved my butt several times, though I actually had to "cheat" and reload an autosave a few turns earlier once as an army sneaked in and took one of my cities once.

    Barbarians in this map is hardly a problem as the AI expand so quickly there is little space left for them in which to spawn. The clan being alone never managed to get much in the form of techs and their orcs proved to be excellent to level my newly build units on. Don't think the Lanun ever actually attacked even once but the Hippus were unrelenting, thank god they cant build siege weapons, it would have made this map impossible.

    The resource placement is too random for my liking, you can start out with a godly place capitol or you can have access to absolutely nothing, and that can prove the difference between success and failure. Would it not be possible to either make it a semi-fixed setup were the player were guaranteed the resources if not their specific placement, or even a totally fixed setup to not make it random at all.
     
  12. snarko

    snarko DLLer

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    Has anyone completed this scenario on deity and if so how? I can't figure out a way to do it, by turn 150 (normal speed) the champions arrive along with a host of other units, 4-5 each turn all with at least three promotions...
     
  13. solanacea

    solanacea Chieftain

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    Shouldn't the hippus use more horsemen to attack and try to pillage? Instead they send a big stack of champions, very out of character imo. The orcs are usually afraid to attack which paradoxically makes it more difficult; I'd rather have them attack anyways and give my units experience. Once you get a unit with guerilla II, that city is basically invincible, this promotion is way overpowered. Overall, my favorite scenario, though. I've always loved this kind of scenarios like the zerg attack scenario in starcraft.
     
  14. WCH

    WCH Chieftain

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    Frankly I think this scenario is simply too hard. It's hard enough to just not be that much fun... either you cheat, or you get extremely lucky, or you lose. Those seem to be the options. From reading the thread I see that some people have won it... but I think it's likely that those who did were all either extremely lucky, or cheated.

    To make it more reasonable, I'd put Hannah and Jonas on separate teams from the Hippus, and have one less Hippus civilization.

    Regardless of that, though, the description should be altered to mention the increasing difficulty... first time I tried it I started on Monarch, and had a pretty good start, but quit when I started getting pounded hard enough that I knew I wasn't going to be able to recover fully. Then I started again and got further turn-wise... was doing pretty well with only a couple cities, trying to expand slowly (a mistake), thought I'd done pretty well at it... lots of gold, couple high level axemen, just built Bambur, working on Mines of Gal-Dur (no copper in site)... then a stack of 8 Champions, one of whom with strength 9, all of which with City Raider promotions, appeared. Wtf.

    I think I'm going to do Barbarian Assault, and then try this again on Settler with a different strategy... I guess it's laudable that it's hard enough to make me really want to beat it, but the sheer frustration of thinking you're doing pretty well until a stack of units with double the strength of your defenders shows up makes me think that it really needs to be toned down.
     
  15. WCH

    WCH Chieftain

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    Played it again and was a little disappointed because it wasn't hard this time... the pressure just never came. Built up crazy defences, had a good start and built strong, followed a good strategy and was geared up to take some intense attacks... but nothing. Couple piddly stacks that never posed any kind of real threat to any of my cities. Conquered Jonas before winning, went with "one more turn" to see if I could keep it up, and started to wipe out the Hippus, who didn't really put up much opposition.

    Weirdest part? Never made contact with Hannah. Last time Hannah was attacking me from pretty early on, this time no contact at all.

    Started it on Settler, that might've been the reason. Excessively easy, won on turn 201.

    I'd say the difficulty thing is a flaw in the scenario. For one thing, it really doesn't add anything to it as far as I can see, mainly it just makes it so that however hard you want the game to be, it won't be at all what you wanted. That's not a good thing. Maybe if there was some text in the explanation saying "Highly recommended that you set the difficulty to Warlord" (or Noble, or whatever)... as is I don't really like it, the text doesn't tell you any of the stuff you need to know, and anyway the stuff that you need to know seems kind of pointless and irritating.
     
  16. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Chieftain

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    I won on turn 174 playing on Monarch/Normal.

    I had 2-3 failed attempts first. The last few failed attempts I played on the same map (I loaded the initial save after I lost it). The resources were good, but not exceptional, but I had a hut that popped mining right next to my capitol that I popped once I put the city down. That gave me a nice early boost.

    Initially I bought two cities, bought ancient chants, a worker, two warriors & a scout. Later I popped exploration from a hut with my scout before I lost him.

    I went after mysticism first, and then right to archery. In my previous attempts my greatest struggle was with the economy. I was always running out of money due to the number of my troops. So going for God King & Elder Councils was a priority for me.

    Archers helped A LOT. My first few attempts I tried to go with just warriors, but beelining archers made a big difference. I didn't even get bronze working till like 20 turns from the end of the game. After getting archery, I went for agriculture, calendar and festivals. Never got RoK.

    I put all my cities at choke points (more or less).

    Challenging but fun. :b:
     
  17. Homunculus

    Homunculus Chieftain

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    I'm glad I read this thread before attempting :)

    won in one, admittedly started at warlord.

    Bambur, thane and some small change reduced Jonas to rubble (that is, he hid in some small town somewhere, c'est la vie) then kept the rest of the left side of the map mostly occupied, limiting my defense to the east. slingers + iron axemen meant survival was quite doable.
     
  18. solanacea

    solanacea Chieftain

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    I won easily on Prince. It is pretty easy if you understand the special conditions of the scenario. I understand why people find this very difficult, you cannot win if you play as if it is standard game; teching, founding a religion, placing your cities optimally, getting a hero, etc are not the way to go. Because of the escalating difficulty setting, time is everything.
    The key is to build 6 cities as quickly as possible. Early on, a single warrior in a city on a hill is enough to defeat 2-3 enemies. Also, remember that you are allowed to have more than 5 cities as insurance and you don't care how big they are. Expanding early will cause unhappiness per dwarwen vault rule but you don't care, doesn't matter how far you fall behind in tech, you are not required to capture a single enemy city anyways. Warriors are fine for the first half of the scenario, by then you should have reached slingers, who are perfectly fine to finish this scenario.
     
  19. Domingo

    Domingo El Desaparecido

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    Location:
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    Just won on Prince without any copper :eek:.

    A few tips:
    - buy 3 cities at the beginning
    - place all your cities on hills
    - put all your expansion cities at chokepoints (once again, on hills by rivers)
    - tech towards archery and festivals as early as possible
    - get hill defense and first strike upgrades first
    - get Runes after fortifying your cities
    - cast your world spell when you have plenty of mines and want to upgrade old warriors to slingers

    Easy!
     
  20. Go Boks

    Go Boks Chieftain

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    This is the most challenging and entertaining scenario I have played so far. It took me a couple save reloads, but I finally got it. I did wipe out Jonas early, which eliminated an enemy and probably helped in the long run.

    This is the first time I have ever built Pact of the Nilhorn. Surprised more people haven't mentioned it. Never went for Archery, but it sounds like I probably should have. Trebuchets really helped me decimate their stacks though, and citadels behind my lines gave my cities a useful defensive boost.

    I like the central valley you start in. It gives you the option of cramming inside there and defending two main choke points (as the Hippus never seem to come through the north and south), or expanding outside to grab resources, giving you more points to defend.

    A couple suggestions:

    1) The map lacks that hand crafted feel. It seems like a regular highlands map, with maybe a couple manual modifications. It could use some TLC, imo. Also, the random resources in most of these scenarios doesn't do it for me. If you want randomization, at least fix the type (food/luxury/strategic) so the scenario author has more control over how the map plays out.

    2) I was also disappointed at the lack of cavalry on the part of the Hippus. I faced more Axemen and Archers than anything else. I think I saw two Horse Archers the entire game (which was the most challenging battle I faced, so they would have benefited from building more of these). Maybe you can tweak the AI for this scenario (or Hippus AI in general) to get them to try to tech mounted units ASAP and have a preference for building them.


    Also, what was the deal with the Lanun? I never saw them, but had magical contact with them (I suppose as soon as they allied with the Hippus or something similar). When I won, they did not show up on the replay either. I only saw the 4 Hippus areas, Jonas and myself.
     

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