Agricultural Technology, Food, and Affinities

[kipwheeler]

I haven't heard much yet about any agricultural technologies on the Tech Web. Some of the screenshots show what looks like fields of cultivated land in the middle of the alien terrain, unless I am misinterpreting what I see. That seems to be in contrast to the idea that "energy" is the currency and one of the primary driving forces of the game. On the other hand, setting up a colony on an alien world would realistically require some serious supplies of food for the first settlers. Starvation nearly did in some of the early European colonists in North America, for instance.

How should the game design handle food supplies (if at all?) in the early part of the game? (Presumably, late game, technology will be so advanced with the equivalent of Star Trek's "food materializers" that it wouldn't be an issue then.) What sort of technologies regarding agriculture would you like to see in the Tech Web?

On my part, to start, I'll throw a few ideas out here for each faction

Purity: Hydroponics, Subterranean Microbiotic Yeast Vats, Aquaria Fish-ranching, Cartilege-Slab Clonemeats, Soil Reclamation and De-Toxification (for Terraforming), Sonic Plows, Mass Fertilizer Production, Active Ozone-Repair Nanides, Domed Ecosystems, Nitrogen-fixating Nanides, Atmospheric Containment Techniques, Gen-engineered Fast-Growth Crops, Gen-engineered Large-Yield Crops, Gen-engineered Self-Fertilizing Crops, Sattelite-Bio-Monitoring of Crop Conditions, Advanced Weather Prediction, Weather Conditioning, Terraformation Vaporators, Laserstrike Orbital Satelites killing pest swarms, Superfertilizers, Orbital Solar Reflection Mirrors providing 24 hr/ sunlight on crops, Mass Xeno-Pest Extinction Methods, Meteorological Warfare Techniques (to destroy competitor's crops)

Harmony: Bio-pesticides, Kelp farming, Mass Pelagiculture, Symbiotic Digestion Larvae, Ecotopian Socialization, Dentic Mastication Worm Symbiotes, Anti-radiation Serums, Bioplastic Production, Ecopolice Squadrons, Medical "Screen" Injections for UV Protection, Toxic-Waste Eating Bacteria, Toxin-Filtration Water Units, Ecological Soil Rejuvenation, Xeno-adaptive Digestion Modification, Basic Xeno-Domestication, Native Vinesilk domestication, Native Blackwine domestication, Native Larval Foodstuffs, Lingual-Code translation of native fauna, Beetle-Ranching

Supremacy: Roboticized Farms, Autoplows, Algael Biofuels, Robotic Desalinization Plants, Auto-assembly Irrigation Projects, Mass Byproduct Reprocessing Techiques, Protein Cubes, Subterranean-Heated Fields, Autokitchens, Nutriment Slap-patches, Supercritical Fluid treatments to remove compounds/odors from foods, Single-cell Protein Foodstuffs, Ingesta-Tabs and Food-Packet Auto-Dispensers, Blood-and Stomach Replacement Filters, Sustenance Replacement (food no longer necessary) Nanoconversion of Tar and Pitch into Petroleum, Ecotage techniques (to destroy competitor's crops)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

In general

Purity-better "farms"

Harmony-food from native terrain

Supremacy-production/energy->food conversion (late game mines/power plants are better for pop growth/maintenance than farms)


---side note: energy as currency is BAD idea. Separate resource would be fine..but not currency/trade generated resource.

 

[reddishrecue]

These are all different ways people can gather food.

 

[AriochIV]

Currency is currency. What difference does it make what they call it?

 

[MountainTiger]

That seems to be in contrast to the idea that "energy" is the currency and one of the primary driving forces of the game.

I don't understand this. My understanding so far is that energy is the name for gold, as was the case in SMAC; this has no direct relationship to food production.

I think Krikkit's list makes sense: assuming that all of these options exist, techs that improve your ability to exploit native life belong to Harmony, techs that improve terraforming to Purity, and buildings or other methods of converting production/income into food could be Purity, Supremacy, or both.

 

[GeoModder]

Supremacy-production/energy->food conversion (late game mines/power plants are better for pop growth/maintenance than farms)

Hey, robots may still need plenty of an organic-based supply: lubricants.

 

[kipwheeler]

I don't understand this. My understanding so far is that energy is the name for gold, as was the case in SMAC; this has no direct relationship to food production.

Yes, I understand that energy has no direct relationship to food production. What I find odd is that the game appears to keep track of "energy" as currrency, but it doesn't seem to have a way to keep track of food supply for your colonies. I'm not saying the two should be linked, just that it would make more sense to me if there was some sort of "supply" count for your colonists, at least for the first part of the game, and presumably in the last half the game, you have progressed so far it's no longer a necessary mechanic.

I think Krikkit's list makes sense: assuming that all of these options exist, techs that improve your ability to exploit native life belong to Harmony, techs that improve terraforming to Purity, and buildings or other methods of converting production/income into food could be Purity, Supremacy, or both.

I think it might be interesting if the food-technologies one group created directly interfered with the food-technologies of competing affinities in the area, giving another reason for conflict. So, if Harmony invents "Beetle-Ranching," the beetles they create were destructive to a neighboring Purity faction's Genengineered Hardwoods, for instance. Or Purity's "bio-pesticides" end up killing native xeno-weeds, but that is destructive to Purity's Silk Vine harvesting, etc. We tend to think of agricultural tech merely as boosting one's own population, but with competing biomes, it can become a form of warfare--giving you strong incentive to master Weather Conditioning or genetic-engineered pests to knock your competition out of the running.

Unless Food level is counted as a separate civ requirement from energy, though, it would be hard to add that level of complexity.

 

[MountainTiger]

Yes, I understand that energy has no direct relationship to food production. What I find odd is that the game appears to keep track of "energy" as currrency, but it doesn't seem to have a way to keep track of food supply for your colonies. I'm not saying the two should be linked, just that it would make more sense to me if there was some sort of "supply" count for your colonists, at least for the first part of the game, and presumably in the last half the game, you have progressed so far it's no longer a necessary mechanic.

I'm assuming that food works like it always has in Civ games: each citizen consumes a certain amount of food, and the excess is credited towards city growth. I haven't seen anything to make me think they are changing the core food mechanic; maybe I've missed something, though.

I think there has been mention of satellites that have some sort of terraforming influence, so I expect there will be some competitive elements there.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Currency is currency. What difference does it make what they call it?

Because energy has
1. significant 'non currency' ways to be acquired
2. significant 'non currency' ways to be used/needed

As such if the main way to get 'energy' is trade routes, and high production is a separate strategy than high energy, it violates suspension of disbelief.

In civ 5 they could have used the name 'bread' instead of 'gold'.
But then why don't you get 'bread' from granaries, watermills, windmills, or wheat resources?
Why can't you use 'bread' to feed your people?

Any resource could be used for trade. But if they want a specific resource for trade, it should be focused on that.. Trade.
Gold was reasonable in civ 1-5, but 'bread' would not have been.
Abandoning gold in cbe was probably good. But their new choice is basically the equivalent of 'bread'. It means they will either be
cutting out a true trade resource
Or
badly mislabeling so as to destroy suspension of disbelief

Honestly 'clowns' would be better than 'energy' as a currency resource (unless they truly are eliminating any 'trade' resources.)

 

[GeoModder]

"Energy" as currency can as well refer to the "charge" your faction keeps available in/for its power grid to produce items in manufacturing plants. Using energy to finish production faster by either working round the clock on your own manufacturing capacity or obtaining the components from other sources (trade thus).
I'm thinking that "trade" in Civ:BE evolves more around supply then commerce.

 

[AriochIV]

Because energy has
1. significant 'non currency' ways to be acquired
2. significant 'non currency' ways to be used/needed

Not necessarily. You're assuming that there's a deeper mechanism tying currency to energy production. That may be true, but there's nothing at the moment to suggest that. All we know is that currency has the name "energy." I don't see any reason to assume that there's more to it than that; I would guess that they're just trying to sound more high-tech by using a different name than "gold."

That's like assuming that because a currency is named "credits", that this must mean that there is a complicated system involving debt and interest and sophisticated monetary policy.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Not necessarily. You're assuming that there's a deeper mechanism tying currency to energy production. That may be true, but there's nothing at the moment to suggest that. All we know is that currency has the name "energy." I don't see any reason to assume that there's more to it than that; I would guess that they're just trying to sound more high-tech by using a different name than "gold."

That's like assuming that because a currency is named "credits", that this must mean that there is a complicated system involving debt and interest and sophisticated monetary policy.

Then the problem is then one of suspension of disbelief. See my comments on 'bread' as currency v. 'gold'

After all energy (the real thing) Is really important for normal function in current reality, and seems important in the world of cbe



They can call it bread, gold, credits, hammers, energy, teddy bears, clowns, elvis, faith, beakers, oxygen, population, etc.
some of those come with expectations of how they work, and some have very strong expectations about how they should work.
If they call it 'energy' but it acts in a way very different than people expect energy to act, (instead it acts much more like any of a hundred other things) you have damaged your suspension of disbelief/immersion seriously.


The other problem is as they go through the tech tree, and work on the buildings, tiles, etc., they will notice that suspension of disbelief and try to shoehorn in game concepts that don't match. (See SMAC and raising terrain to get more money)

What if 'faith' was what they called the resource for getting techs, and you had Inquisitors that would allow you to steal technologies from cities you conquered. (In this game, it would be more realistic in civ 1-5)

 

[Lancor]

I'm assuming that food works like it always has in Civ games: each citizen consumes a certain amount of food, and the excess is credited towards city growth. I haven't seen anything to make me think they are changing the core food mechanic; maybe I've missed something, though.

I think there has been mention of satellites that have some sort of terraforming influence, so I expect there will be some competitive elements there.

We know at least that they try to implement some form of outpost system for new cities where they require a supply route to your established cities to grow. I hope the first city will have some special rules to it as well.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

We know at least that they try to implement some form of outpost system for new cities where they require a supply route to your established cities to grow. I hope the first city will have some special rules to it as well.

I'm guessing your "palace" ie building for free in city #1 will provide the necessary inital growth boosts for itself that allow it to begin to help others get going.


Essentially i would guess you don't start off with 1 pop or +2 food in city tile

 

[MountainTiger]

We know at least that they try to implement some form of outpost system for new cities where they require a supply route to your established cities to grow. I hope the first city will have some special rules to it as well.

This is a good point. I don't think it suggests an overall move away from city-level food accounting, though.

 

[sendos]

In general

Purity-better "farms"

Harmony-food from native terrain

Supremacy-production/energy->food conversion (late game mines/power plants are better for pop growth/maintenance than farms)


---side note: energy as currency is BAD idea. Separate resource would be fine..but not currency/trade generated resource.

Hm, the supremacy method of getting food would be interesting. Or all food at a certain point is transformed into either gold (selling it away) or production (biofuels, as previously mentioned). Or at a certain point, farms do nothing, supremacy player/AI removes them and builds manufactories instead.

Harmony method reminds me of the Manifold Harmonics project in SMAC, where the xenofungus grants +3 food, +4 production/minerals and +5 energy, depending on the planet modifier in SE.

 

[MountainTiger]

Hm, the supremacy method of getting food would be interesting. Or all food at a certain point is transformed into either gold (selling it away) or production (biofuels, as previously mentioned). Or at a certain point, farms do nothing, supremacy player/AI removes them and builds manufactories instead.

Harmony method reminds me of the Manifold Harmonics project in SMAC, where the xenofungus grants +3 food, +4 production/minerals and +5 energy, depending on the planet modifier in SE.

Supremacy seems like a good candidate for a specialist economy, perhaps going so far as to have no-food specialists late game (you don't need much food to support an uploaded brain).

 

[Lancor]

I'm guessing your "palace" ie building for free in city #1 will provide the necessary inital growth boosts for itself that allow it to begin to help others get going.


Essentially i would guess you don't start off with 1 pop or +2 food in city tile

yeah the "palace" will probably provide some effect that makes the first city an actual city at founding. Or your very first settler unit has a special promotion of some kind.
It would certainly be fun to have some kind of special rules for the first dozen of turns though. You could drive your capital in a special direction, instead of making it the multipurpose supercity it usually turns into in most Civ games. And it would provide a good counterbalance to the other factions arriving late!

The suggestions in the OP are neat too. I am hoping that with many features gone, we will see much more new mechanics than we already know off. Different food mechanics would be certainly fun. I always loved the health/food interaction in Civ4 for example. Clinics giving out food was an immersion breaker somehow.

 

[MatThePhat]

I think it might be interesting if the food-technologies one group created directly interfered with the food-technologies of competing affinities in the area, giving another reason for conflict. So, if Harmony invents "Beetle-Ranching," the beetles they create were destructive to a neighboring Purity faction's Genengineered Hardwoods, for instance. Or Purity's "bio-pesticides" end up killing native xeno-weeds, but that is destructive to Purity's Silk Vine harvesting, etc. We tend to think of agricultural tech merely as boosting one's own population, but with competing biomes, it can become a form of warfare--giving you strong incentive to master Weather Conditioning or genetic-engineered pests to knock your competition out of the running.

Unless Food level is counted as a separate civ requirement from energy, though, it would be hard to add that level of complexity.

This! When they announced stations, they mentioned how they wanted to add more shades of gray between peace and total war. This sounds like an easy to understand and quick way to be a passive aggressive bastard that ties into the fundamental argument over the future of humanity. It's like SMAC's terraforming shenanigans, except more thematic, easier to explain, and balanced.


--this be comin' from my cell pho' yo, so plz be up an' forgivin' any mizzlesteaks and breaks (galaxy s4)

 

[VictoryLass]

I am going to assume that dome farms would be an option in this game for all Affinities. I think Harmony would eventually splice native plant genes with Earth ones. As for Supremacy, that might depend on the choices of the player. Could it be possible to create a society like the one Astro Boy lived in, where humans and AI co-exist?