Ahmadinejad "wins" Iran presidential election

[Formaldehyde]

People of one nation are killing people of another nation, and people of another nation are killing people of one nation. I think that's called "war.".

Palestine isn't a nation. That's the problem. And calling the situation in Iraq after the first few weeks of illegal occupation of a sovereign country a 'war' is disingenuous at best.

Granted, Israel and the US don't care about killing Hamas's human shields, but Hamas still put them up in the first place.."

They do nothing of the sort. Does the "human shield" ever stop the Israelis from killing them all? That is merely the Israeli excuse as they open fire with standoff weapons in areas known to be heavily populated with women and children.

I take it you expect Israel to sit around and do nothing while Hamas fires rockets at it's cities?

Which do little or no actual damage? How long are people going to use that excuse for killing thousands of innocent civilians in cold blood?

Why does it matter if they're a terrorist organization?.

The entire Israeli excuse for continuing to kill people with reckless abandon is because they are supposedly facing terrorists. If they lose that moral basis, they become the terrorists themselves.

me stupid and me not know what the hell either of you are talking about. ?.

At least you are willing to admit it. Perhaps next time you will think twice before running to the aid of someone whom you don't even know what his opinions are.

Just like you're defending the atrocities of Hamas and Hezbollah.

First, I haven't seen proof of any Hezbollah atrocities, If they actually existed, I would think most nations would consider them to be 'terrorists', which they do not. Got any evidence to the contrary?

Second, I am certainly not defending them, nor did I ever insinuate as much. I suggest you reread my posts and try to find even a glimmer that such was actually the case. Are you going to apologize for this one too?

They did, or at least some of them did, with some help from the CIA and MI6. The CIA and MI6 did not do it all on their own. THAT'S what he's saying.

No, that is clearly not what he is saying. He is claiming it was some sort of weird populst uprising to stage a coup of their own democratically elected government and install a brutal fascist US stooge in his place. That the US and British involvment was virtually non-existent instead of the planners and initators of the coup as they obviously were.

 

[JerichoHill]

I seriously doubt that the mosque was actually bombed as part of an elaborate disinformation campaign.

Do you disagree with my description of what occurred in 1979? If you do not, certainly history could repeat itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution#Start_of_demonstrations_in_late_1977

 

[Archbob]

If the results get overturned, instead of having someone who completely hates us, we'll just have someone that strongly dislikes us.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Do you disagree with my description of what occurred in 1979? If you do not, certainly history could repeat itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution#Start_of_demonstrations_in_late_1977

I see no mention of a mosque being bombed by the protesters here, much less that it was done as an elaborate disinformation campaign to blame the Shah. Am I missing something here?

Also, I found this interesting while looking for the popularity of Iran's current government. Ahmadinejad's foe, who lost in the 2005 elections, claimed ... he had rigged the election!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/25/iran.roberttait

The Guardian, Saturday 25 June 2005

Iran's presidential election was hit by fresh ballot-rigging allegations last night as voters chose between a veteran establishment candidate and a hardliner promising to restore the values of the Islamic revolution.
The head of the central electoral committee called on Tehran's provincial governor to suspend balloting amid claims of violations and abuses. But voting was extended by at least two hours.

The call for a suspension came after aides to Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the centrist former president, accused supporters of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the hardline Tehran mayor, of systematic violations. The controversy reignited charges levelled at Mr Ahmadinejad after he unexpectedly came second in last week's first round, qualifying for yesterday's run-off.

Mohsen Vaheb, chairman of Mr Rafsanjani's campaign in Tehran province, accused the basij, a militant volunteer force, and the revolutionary guards of trying to skew the results in Mr Ahmadinejad's favour.

"We know they are ballot rigging," he told the Guardian.

"We are receiving reports that the basij and revolutionary guards are involved in ballot rigging and cheating. There's a probability that ballot boxes in at least two mosques in Tehran will be annulled.

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. Karl Marx

 

[choxorn]

Palestine isn't a nation. That's the problem. And calling the situation in Iraq after the first few weeks of illegal occupation of a sovereign country a 'war' is disingenuous at best.

Nation/Entity that wants to be a nation/whatever. Why are we arguing about this?

Don't be ridiculous. They do nothing of the sort. That is merely the Israeli excuse as they open fire with standoff weapons in areas known to be heavily populated with women and children.

Do you deny that Hamas intentionally places weapons near places that are known to be heavily populated with women and children?

Which do little or no actual damage? How long are people going to use that excuse for killing hundreds of innocent civilians in cold blood?

I never said it was justified, I just said that Israel won't sit around and do nothing forever. They get pissed off.

At lasat you are willing to admit it. Perhaps next time you will think twice before running to the aid of someone whom you don't even know what his opinions are.

Meh. idiot me doesn't care.

No, that is clearly not what he is saying. He is claiming it was some sort of weird populst uprising to stage a coup of their own democratically elected government and install a brutal fascist US stooge in his place. That the US and British involvment was virtually non-existent instead of the planners and initators of the coup as they obviously were.

I can't figure out what anyone is trying to say at this point.

 

[lordrune]

If the results get overturned, instead of having someone who completely hates us, we'll just have someone that strongly dislikes us.

You have to be a bit more pragmatic than that.

I'm not from the Middle East or Muslim, but I've been very critical of many of America's international activities in the past (and, to some extent, the present as well). I think that feeling is shared by many - if not most - in Muslim countries. But that doesn't mean they're all anti-Semtic and America-hating extremists like Ahmedinajad.

Of course Mousavi isn't going to throw himselves into America's arms like the leaders of my own country (Kevin Rudd, and John Howard before him), but I'm certain he'd be more than willing to open dialogue with Obama. Possibly even Netanyahu as well, although that might be more wishful thinking.

Like most people here and elsewhere on the internet, I'm only going from what I have read (and I have tried to read, and understand, extensively). From what I've read, I do believe that the circumstantial evidence shows the election was *likely* rigged - and the regime have, for reasons they have not disclosed, gone to great efforts to keep any information that would either prove or disprove that secret.

My thoughts are with the Iranian people right now, I want to see justice done, but I don't really want to see masses of bloodshed either. If Ahmedinajad and Khamenei *have* rigged this though against the mass of public opinion, they really have done something reckless, and its going to get uglier before it settles down.

 

[bigdog5994]

im very proud of the Iranian protesters i hope they succeed

 

[JerichoHill]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1978)

Further, look into the history of SAVAK for reference on the false bombing.

 

[Neomega]

Unless BBC news, The Times are both significantly biased, it seemed there was significant support for an alternative to Ah-mah-dine-jad. Also his actions seem to point towards it. Political Freedom has been curtailed in the last few months.

They are biased. Always have been towards the American agenda. And right now, that agenda is to smear Iran as an authoritarian dictatorship.

And good for Ahmedinijad if he was there during the Iranian revolution... the Shah had no business running that place, whixch overthrew the mossadeq democracy. Yet another black stain on America's claim of being the champion of democracy. Add to that Guatemala and Chile (And look at the NYT's historical reporting on any of these) and you will see... they are biased.

You have to be a bit more pragmatic than that.

Not really. The guy Ahmedinijad beat was no more friendly towards teh US. The guy who dropped out, former mayor of Tehran was slightly warmer towards teh US, and more liberal, but he dropped out.


The allegations of vote rigging are pretty ridiculous. The people were given a choice between to islamist hard liners, and they chose the guy who has shown he has backbone.

 

[bigdog5994]

Form are you for Ahmadinejad? i thought you were a lefty person

 

[Formaldehyde]

Do you deny that Hamas intentionally places weapons near places that are known to be heavily populated with women and children?.

What part of "Yes, I fully understand that Hamas engages in heinous terrorist acts" do you not understand?

I never said it was justified, I just said that Israel won't sit around and do nothing forever. They get pissed off.

You mean they always use such activities as an ongoing excuse to kill more Palestinians, right?

I don't think anybody in here condones terrorist bombings. My problem is that Israel has effectively become nearly as bad as their enemies in dealing with it. They seem to think that if they build enough walls, import enough Isarelis into Gaza and the West Bank, assassinate enough Palestinian leaders, kill enough Palestinian women and children, that they will eventually 'win'.

It's all about blowback. We create the terrorists through our own acts. And the cycle continues...

Form are you for Ahmadinejad? i thought you were a lefty person

Heh. No, I'm not a "lefty person" although I do have some opinions that could be considered to be 'liberal', just as I have a number that could be considered to be 'conservative'. It seems the older I get, the more centrist I become.

And no, I'm not for Ahmadinejad, either. This whole thing just doesn't make any sense to me. It looks to be more like any overblown teabagging than anything else.

 

[Neomega]

I don't think anybody in here condones terrorist bombings. My problem is that Israel has effectively become nearly as bad as their enemies in dealing with it.

Nearly? They killed 2,000 Lebanese civilians over 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers in 2006.

 

[Ulyaoth]

Nearly? They killed 2,000 Lebanese civilians over 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers in 2006.

I've been told Israel places the lives of their own above all else, and they will not negotiate nor will they leave their soldiers in the hands of enemies, and if it comes down to annihilating a whole nation it's their right to do so to save so much as one soldier.

Also, thread too long so I'm not reading, but does anyone hear believe maybe, just maybe, the election was fair and the Iranians want Ahmadinejad? It seems no one on the news will bear the thought at all that maybe this is so, especially fox which is lambasting obama about not invading them or something.

 

[Azale]

I've been told Israel places the lives of their own above all else, and they will not negotiate nor will they leave their soldiers in the hands of enemies, and if it comes down to annihilating a whole nation it's their right to do so to save so much as one soldier.

No...no it's not.

EDIT: As to your second point, read the thread. Trust me, it addresses your opinion.

 

[Cutlass]

I've been told Israel places the lives of their own above all else, and they will not negotiate nor will they leave their soldiers in the hands of enemies, and if it comes down to annihilating a whole nation it's their right to do so to save so much as one soldier.

Also, thread too long so I'm not reading, but does anyone hear believe maybe, just maybe, the election was fair and the Iranians want Ahmadinejad? It seems no one on the news will bear the thought at all that maybe this is so, especially fox which is lambasting obama about not invading them or something.

I think he likely would have won a fair election, but there was widespread cheating to give the appearance of a blowout win. If true, childish.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nearly? They killed 2,000 Lebanese civilians over 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers in 2006.

But they didn't fire rockets indiscrimiately into largely unpopulated areas, so they must not be the more evil ones.

And as far as the ratio is concerned, that sounds about right.

9/11 deaths: 3000
Iraqi and Afghani deaths: 300,000+?

 

[choxorn]

What part of "Yes, I fully understand that Hamas engages in heinous terrorist acts" do you not understand?

That's not my point. My point is that Israel kills women and children because that's where Hamas puts their weapons and their members. If Hamas's weapons and members were in the middle of the desert, Israel would probably fire their weapons into the middle of the desert.

I don't think anybody in here condones terrorist bombings. My problem is that Israel has effectively become nearly as bad as their enemies in dealing with it. They seem to think that if they build enough walls, import enough Isarelis into Gaza and the West Bank, assassinate enough Palestinian leaders, kill enough Palestinian women and children, that they will eventually 'win'.

And I'm not saying Israel is right to do any of these things. They should stop settling in West Bank and Gaza, Hamas should stop doing things to worsen the situation there, and they both should at least try to negotiate.

It's all about blowback. We create the terrorists through our own acts. And the cycle continues...

I agree wholeheartedly. The more we do things to try to win the War on Terror, the harder they fight back. It seems the only way to win is to do nothing.

 

[zenspiderz]

If the results get overturned, instead of having someone who completely hates us, we'll just have someone that strongly dislikes us.

'Us'? if you are a member of the US imperialist cabal or the zionist criminal cabal then maybe. Even then i not sure hatred is the right word, moral outrage or righteous indignation would be more accurate. Ahmadi is very clear in all his speeches that the iranian nation (including himself) has no problem with the american people or people of the jewish faith. I don't know about mousavi but i bet is position is not too different.

 

[zenspiderz]

Form are you for Ahmadinejad? i thought you were a lefty person

Ahmadi is a lefty himself as we have already established earlier.

 

[JerichoHill]

1 comment though: No one died in the teabag protests. Of course, at those rallies, there were not police in riot gear either.

Reading over this thread and then taking a break made me realize something

We're debating, often times very personally, and regardless of what opinions we hold, many protesters in Iran died today, and others injured. We may think they're right or wrong, but freedom of speech and assembly has been deemed a fundamental right by almost all governments. They died believing in those freedoms.

And here, we call each other names and insinuate nastiness. Some of us call others fascists, others zionist, etc. etc. Really?

It's petty. I think I'm done debating. Makes me sick.

God speed to those that lost their lives today.