AI and Game Speed

Turrdy

Prince
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Messages
396
Location
CH
Normally I (or rather we; multiplayer with friends) play on King difficulty and a standard game speed. We mostly put in some AI players as well, to juice up the game. And normally these AI players are easy to deal with, build an army and be done with them.
However, last game we decided to play with online game speed and it occured to me that the AI is waaay better (but still on King difficulty).

Is that because I play way worse on such speeds, or because the difficulty-bonuses the AI gets are not scaled down or something like that?

Have you experienced something similar?


PS: speaking of, in multiplayer set-up-screen you can choose difficulty for each player seperatly, does anybody know how those work in detail?
 
in marathon the ai is even worse because every mistake is more important. losing a unit is far more important in marathon when you take 15 turn to create a new one
 
The AI itself is not better. The bonuses the AI receives are also no better, but they may just appear to be stronger as you're not used to that speed. The AI still gets the same boost to science, production, gold, culture, etc., etc....but because the game is shortened so much for online speed you may not be as prepared for their early jump as you normally are. Give it a few more tries...you'll see it's no better. Just have to prepare slightly differently with such a change in game speed.
 
The best speed seems to be one that reduces the tech and culture speeds while leaving the building speed intact. The AI can build tons of units that way, and keeps producing them throughout the game. But, of course, this involves a serious modding to the way the developers planned the game (easy to mod, but a serious change from original design).
 
All progression resources (production, gold, science, culture) and the rates that you earn them at, all scale proportionally with game speed. If something took 100 production to build in one mode and 200 in another, then it takes twice as many turns, so the game speed doesn't affect the difficulty with respect to any of the progression resources. Using one city with 5 production as an example. In the faster game, it would take 20 turns to build it, and 40 turns in the slower game. The tempo of the game actually stays constant across all the game speed settings when it comes to those 4 main progression resources.

But once a unit is built, how it's used differs drastically with respect to its build time. The main thing that makes AI weaker on marathon is unit micro management. You can perform movements and attacks with it each turn. How efficiently you choose to move and attack with your units can gain you marginal gains with each decision and action you make. For example, you might find more goodie huts, or you might rack up more xp and gold clearing barb camps, and most of all, you might conquer more cities than an opponent with the same number of turns to perform unit actions.

Marathon allows you to maximize this unit micromanagement advantage over the AI because it spends most of its turns shuffling its units in place, or chasing off barb scouts. On the other hand you move your units every single turn with a sense of purpose, inherently more efficient.

The second micromanagement advantage (less significant than unit actions, but still significant) is production rounding effect. When you're building a unit naturally, the production cost overflow is generally wasted. If something took 200 production to build and your city now has 5.5 production instead. After 36 turns you'd have 198/200 complete. The final turn gets another 5.5 production even though you only needed 2, so only 3.5 hammers are effectively wasted. You might adjust your tiles around in the final turns of production to get a free point of science or gold or whatever from different tile working choices.

In the faster game it would take 100 production to build so you'd finish it in 19 turns instead (99/100 on turn 18, and the final turn wastes 4.5 hammers). Even assuming perfect tile swapping so you don't waste anything, this 37 turns vs 19 turns is already not 2:1. The slower game already gained a 5% edge (37 to 19 is 1.947 to 1). Early on, this difference is more significant, and they really add up and snowball harder over future turns. As the production numbers grow larger, the edge grows even more, although it becomes less significant. At 45 production the fast game would take 3 turns to build, and the slow game would take 5, again not 2:1, but here the slow game gains an edge of 40% per instance (1.6 to 1). When you slow down the game speed, this "rounding" effect either makes no difference or is in favor of the slower game. It'll never be in favor of the faster game

And of course all these marginal advantages compound geometrically, so in 200 turns of a faster game vs the equivalent 400 turns of a slower game... if the above example is some kind of military unit. Not only do you end up with 66 units in the faster game vs 80 of the same units in the slower game, each one of those units have been moving and attacking more efficiently throughout the game. You'll simply end up with more stuff, alot more stuff.
 
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Production overflow is saved and applied to the next build. If you have any % production bonuses for the next build item, the bonuses are also applied to the overflow.
It's actually one of the more powerful tactics in the game. The quicker the pace the more powerful it becomes. Also applies to chop and harvest yields.
This is how the great scientist (Sagan + Kwolek) - science victory works.
 
Production overflow is saved and applied to the next build. If you have any % production bonuses for the next build item, the bonuses are also applied to the overflow.
It's actually one of the more powerful tactics in the game. The quicker the pace the more powerful it becomes. Also applies to chop and harvest yields.
This is how the great scientist (Sagan + Kwolek) - science victory works.
Hey, would you mind expanding on this tactic?
And does this mean that chopping trees while having a 100% production boosted naval unit queued will give me extra production for the chop?
 
Hey, would you mind expanding on this tactic?
And does this mean that chopping trees while having a 100% production boosted naval unit queued will give me extra production for the chop?
Yes
Example with simple numbers
city production = 25*2 ( for 100% naval) = 50 hammers
Galley cost = 65 hammers

1st galley takes 2 turns
You will have 35 overflow after 2nd turn
2nd galley the 35 overflow is doubled to get 70 + city base of 50 equals 120 hammers. 120 - 65 galley = 55 overflow
3rd galley - 55*2 + 50 - 65 galley = 95 overflow
4th galley - 95 * 2 + 50 - 65 galley = 175 overflow
Now let's add a chop
5th galley - 175 * 2 + 50 - 65 galley + 100 hammers for a chop * 2 from 100% production card = 535 overflow
Now you can switch production to a district and have 535 hammers overflow applied to it.
 
Yes
Example with simple numbers
city production = 25*2 ( for 100% naval) = 50 hammers
Galley cost = 65 hammers

1st galley takes 2 turns
You will have 35 overflow after 2nd turn
2nd galley the 35 overflow is doubled to get 70 + city base of 50 equals 120 hammers. 120 - 65 galley = 55 overflow
3rd galley - 55*2 + 50 - 65 galley = 95 overflow
4th galley - 95 * 2 + 50 - 65 galley = 175 overflow
Now let's add a chop
5th galley - 175 * 2 + 50 - 65 galley + 100 hammers for a chop * 2 from 100% production card = 535 overflow
Now you can switch production to a district and have 535 hammers overflow applied to it.
This is very good to know, thanks for your answer!
 
in marathon the ai is even worse because every mistake is more important. losing a unit is far more important in marathon when you take 15 turn to create a new one

I'd disagree with this view. I'd say on slower speed making a mistake is less critical. It may seem that production/research etc times are slower, but in fact on marathon you probably get more time for everything in the end. And most importantly, the game speed doesn't affect movement, so you can do a 'proper' warfare, destroying the AI army and sieging its cities at leisure without being worried that in the middle of your operation your units suddenly become obsolete and so on. So on faster speeds it may seem more challenging because you have to rush all the time.

Also I suspect that eurekas become much more important on marathon (at the start of the game certain eurekas/inspirations will get you like -40 turns on research), and the AI, even though it gets some for free, generally isn't too good at timing for these. And again, slower build/research speeds allow much more precise timing on eurekas, the 3-rd 'micromanagement advantage' to add to @cll3 's post.
 
yes, marathon is easier than normal for that reason. what i meant is that if you lose a unit in marathon is more critical because it will take twice the time
 
yes, marathon is easier than normal for that reason. what i meant is that if you lose a unit in marathon is more critical because it will take twice the time

In case of the AI, sometimes the Gods will just send them a new unit, won't they? :D
 
The best speed seems to be one that reduces the tech and culture speeds while leaving the building speed intact.
Tech stagnation was an optional setting in SMAC without increasing building costs. The biggest problem is finishing the tech tree in 400 turns.
Despite the AI, SMAC was lightyears ahead with a lot of game mechanics.
 
On Deity the slower the speed the better the AI seems to do, probably because it gets three cities tot start with, when it takes you 100+ turns tot get your first settler out. It snowballs something fierce.

On King the AI doesnt get as big a bonus so they get compensated by the AI being so bad at well anything really. I'd suggest Emperor if you want a bit more challenge, they get an extra settler andere some units starting from that difficulty.
 
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