1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

AI believes you're a warmonger...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Suicidekills, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Australia
    Shhhhhh Don't use logic, people hate it when you do that :)

    @OP

    From the code.

    Each Civ has a WARMONGER HATE metric.
    This metric, like all others, has the capacity to go up/down +-2 each game.

    SHAKA's base WARMONGER HATE is 4, but could go up to 6 if the RNG comes out that way.

    If you see the thread I posted into here :

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503339

    It explains how the WARMONGER THREAT and WARMONGER SCORE is calculated, and where WARMONGER HATE comes into it.

    You will have to scroll down till you find my reply with code samples.

    Hope that helps.
     
  2. CivJunkie68

    CivJunkie68 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Messages:
    27
    :agree: 100%
     
  3. Suicidekills

    Suicidekills Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    52
    First of all....

    LOL :lol:

    Second of all...

    If we continue to use logic here then Attila tolerates warmongers because he likes some competition when trying to take over the world??? :confused:

    Lastly...
    Thank you sir for being the first one to actually respond to my original question. I didn't see anything mentioned in that thread about tolerating or disliking warmongers when they believe you're a warmonger unless I missed it. (Way too lazy to look through that code lol) It's funny I actually have no problem with the warmonger penalty. I just see it as another obstacle in the diplomacy game with the AI. The only thing I was confused about is why did all those civs in my game tolerate warmongers except for the zulu. Even France tolerated warmongers even though I took two of his cities.

    Btw (since I like talking about games I'm currently playing) after I took out France and Attila took out Arabia (who was right next to me), I took up an offer with the Zulu to DOW Attila which was fine because they were close, I already had the army, and I figured I was going to be making friends anytime soon. Plus Attila killed my only friend, Arabia... :cry: Prior to this Zulu had denounced the Huns and China, Askia and the Aztecs were at war with each other, China was just chilling on the opposite side of the map building wonders like they were going out of style, and France was just being a nonfactor. So the only DOF that occured in the game was the one between Arabia (who were dead now) and me which made the warmonger penalty pretty much obsolete.

    Anyway, Zulu and I DOWed Attila, and I was able to capture Arabia's capital. Since the Zulu weren't doing much on the eastern front, I took Attila's first peace deal where they gave me 2000 gold. After that I sat back and focused on my empire. Askia and Monty were crippled by warring with each other so they both became nonfactors as well. So the main civs at this point were me, China, and The Zulu. The Zulu denounced China, and shortly after so did I to attempt to make and alliance with The Zulu which actually worked and the second DOF of the game was created. A few turns later China DOWed the Zulu. I would have helped the Zulu but at the time I had pretty much no navy and China was on the opposite side of the pangea, so it actually would have been faster to cross the ocean to get to China. Well, pretty much nothing happened during that war, and they just made peace shortly after. Now Attila decided to be a jerk after being seemingly friendly and DOWed me which is funny because now I can just go ahead and take out Attila (I just got Winged Hussars not too long ago), and it's all his fault lol. And that's pretty much where I finished off at. So I'll probably take out Attila and then build up a navy and use the Zulu to help me take out China. (Which should be game over at that point since China has literally every wonder in the game)

    Hmmm I think I might be a Civ Fanatic :lol:
     
  4. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Australia
    Your welcome. Hope it helps.

    To be honest there is no easy way I could tell without seeing all the diplomatic modifiers you had accrued throughout the game. Remember that Warmonger penalties fade over time, and there are some exceptions when conquest is not considered warmongering (ie capturing a city that was once yours, liberating a city state, declaring war through a DP, etc).

    FYI You could try enabling logging and checking that.

    Also some of those Civs may have rolled very low on the warmonger hate, which will significantly increase what you can get away with. Finally the WARMONGER penalty is a sliding scale with approximately 5 different stages, I am not sure if all are represented in the diplomatic display.

    How many Civs are you playing against ? Are you using more then the default for a given map ? This may (have to check the code, but I know one part it would definitely affect), affect what you can get away with, ie slant in the aggressive player's favour in terms of not being hated.

    Also if a Civ denounces another use that to your advantage. Denouncing the same player earns you the "We denounced the same people, or you denounced an enemy of our friend (paraphrasing here)). This can help significantly offset any distrust/hate due to your conquering efforts. On the other hand if the person denounced someone with a lot of friends, then denouncing the denouncer can earn you a significant bonus too. The diplomacy game is a bit of an art and their are a lot of ways to affect it that you only learn by playing the game (and checking the diplomatic relationships each time a significant event happens, or trolling through the XML. For the most part it all makes sense, if you denounce someone their friends become unhappy, denounce your friends your other friends wont like it. Denounce someone's enemy and they will like it, etc etc. There is one bit that may be a bug/error that I am still trying to confirm regarding assisting an ally that asks for your assistance, but other then that the rest is solid.

    Finally DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE RETURNED WORKER. This bonus lasts for life (unlike the majority of others) and is easily worth it (over taking the worker) for any civ that will live long enough for you to enjoy the benifits of a strong relationship.

    If you choose one friend from the start, and handle them intelligently diplomatically, doing everything you can to make them happy, then you can pretty much put the world to the sword and they will applaud you for it. OK slight exaggeration but you get the point ie there are many ways to keep civs on side since G+K and BNW. FYI There are a few Civs this will not work on, but most are receptive if you put in the effort.

    Who isn't ???? :)

    It was a fair way down, I would provide a link but I am not sure how to link directly to a post. Its my third reply in that thread (my replies are close together) and is around the 15th response in general.

    I provide code samples, but also provide a link to another user PUTMALK who sums it up with a simple formulae. OK well not simple (it does have a few components), but simple to follow. I strongly suggest you read it as it makes it very easy to see whats going on.

    I suggest you have a read as it should really explain how the Warmonger rating is calculated. To see how the HATE comes into it, you need to look into the code I provided, but if you want a basic paraphrasing : flavour values just acts as a modifier to the base score described by PUTMALK (ie the bit I suggest you read). The higher the hate, the more the warmonger score is modified or scaled, so in other words you get punished more for conquering less and vica versa.

    I provided the code so that those who were interested could see for themselves and those who weren't knew I wasn't just making stuff up ;) Also just in case I made a mistake, as I sometimes do given I type off most of these posts while working :) (Perhaps its the other way around :) ) I may write up a thread that itemises each thing for those who are not programmers, but unfortunately I don't have to much time at the minute.

    I was actually being more cheekily facetious then condescending. I meant no offense.

    I would have to see the reasoning behind some of these values before making a judgement, but they are as much based upon historical flavouring as they are around gameplay, which I think is a good thing.

    I think there is room for Warmongers liking and disliking other warmongers. (Also remember whatever an AI's rating for WARMONGER hate is, it can increase by +-2 each game, this random components is done just to ensure that the AI does not play exactly the same each game and is a good thing IMO).

    From a purely gameplay perspective :

    Mutual warmonger tolerance gives an AI warmonger a better chance of being able to trade, which given the new gold system is a good thing. It allows for mutual pacts of aggression (ie ganging up on stubborn turtles), etc.


    On the other hand an intolerant warmonger, allows for a greater chance of deflecting world aggression (ie from them to you), diplomatic wrangling ie denouncing the hated warmonger, allies for defence should the warmonger turn their way , etc.​


    I do not believe it should be all one way, I don't think it makes sense from a gameplay or historical perspective. Different war oriented Civs have different strengths, some of them do better without alienating the world, others simply don't care.

    As I said in another thread the term Warmonger is a loaded one. The metric is essentially used to measure how much a player or AI is willing to improve there capability by capturing other players cities, declaring war or conquering other civilizations.

    If a player is increasing their territory through warfare (regardless of who started what) then other players will get concerned. Its not really about blame (which the term warmonger implies), its about territory through warfare.

    Think of this way. If you meet a new AI player and notice they have a whole bunch of another Civ's cities puppeted or annexed (via the city names), do you stop to consider how they were obtained ? In some cases the Civ with all the cities will not have been the aggressor, just the winner, but do you consider them less of a potential threat ? Well that's what the warmonger metric is meant to encapsulate.


    If I get time in the next few weeks I will create a large thread devoted to the Diplomatic AI and how it works. The DIPLOMATIC AI code file is easily the largest in the entire game, coming at just under 1MB or approximately 33,000 lines of code, or approximately 8-9% of the total Civ V game code. The designers deserve credit for really trying to create an immersive and challenging AI for us players. It is a very large undertaking to say the least.

    TLDR ..... TBDC :)
     
  5. Suicidekills

    Suicidekills Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    52
    Wow thanks that is some useful information right there :thumbsup:
     
  6. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,358
    Location:
    Ahch-To
    I think this is the post you are referring to.
     
  7. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Australia
    That's it exactly, now for the shameful bit I only just worked out how to do it. Click on the post number for a single post view.

    Wow, its good to see my university education and work experience have all paid off :) My parents would be so proud ......

    Thanks Mesix for pointing this out.

    @SuicideKills
    No worries hope it helped. BTW If you have not already done so check out the link provided by Mesix, it should address most of your Warmonger issues. Also linked from that page is PUTMALK's Reddit article, which through the comments section address' the issue further. He/She will probably respond if you send them a question, they have spent more time then I trolling the code for answers, they are also knowledgeable on G+K to BNW changes. That said PM me if you have a query, or post to the forum, and if I can help I will try.
     
  8. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    370
    Gender:
    Male
    Here's how you avoid warmonger penalty:

    Denounce before warring.
    Get Others to join your wars if possible, this will make them like you.
    Never kill completely. The minute you do, the world hates you for going full Hitler.
    When the AI begs for peace with all their stuff, take it.
     
  9. Deggial

    Deggial Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,211
    Location:
    Germany
    Not quite, but still somehow correct:

    'Denounce before warring':
    Insofar, as mutual denouncements will help to enhance diplomatic relations with the co-denouncing civ. So, if another civ hates your future enemy, you will get a positiv modifier to counterbalance your wormonger penalty.
    However, there is no direct link to the warmonger penalty itself coded.

    'Get Others to join your wars if possible, this will make them like you':
    As you say it. Another positive modifier.

    'Never kill completely':
    Dated. There is no 'Civ annihilation malus' anymore in BNW. However, the fewer cities your victim owns, the higer is the per city warmonger value. So, if you take the last city, it is still very high. But so is it for the second last city.

    'When the AI begs for peace with all their stuff, take it':
    Accepting peace offers or not has nothing to do with the warmonger status. However, cities taken by peace offers don't count as 'conquered' and don't raise the counter. But they will raise the 'to many cities in short time' counter.
     
  10. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Australia
    Pretty much what Deggial said. However 3 is not entirely correct, there is still a penalty for conquering but it exists more as a sanity check for unbalanced setups. It also doesn't fade so could potentially take effect later on in more normal games under rare circumstances. (Particularly for someone taking a lot of CS's).

    IMO the best way to go to war with the least penalty is to make them attack you (thus avoiding the declare war penalty), but first make sure you have many positive modifiers with any civs you care about before taking any cities. If you don't take cities you can do whatever you like and suffer NO penalty (ie destroy their units, pillage their tiles, extract large tribute for peace etc).

    FYI What BNW does differently to Vanilla (and G+K until patched) is that many modifiers which used to affect only OPINION now also affect APPROACH. As such there is far greater room to manipulate AI emotions either up or down. Additionally the scale by which opinion is measured has increased ie it takes more effort to become an ALLY or HATED (OPINIONWISE of course). This extra resolution/granularity has helped reduce the number of AI bipolar events due to in game choices/circumstance.

    So in other words, wrangle the AI diplomatically. Isolate your targets, cosy up to the rest and then pounce when the time is right. Contrary to popular belief you can go to war and be tolerated for it, just so long as you keep your friends happy in the interim.
     
  11. Paradigne

    Paradigne Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Location:
    Texas
    I think they went overboard with warmonger. Just my opinion, but:

    A DoW against one opponent, even multiple times should not label you a WM.

    Being DoWed on should not make you a warmonger (even if it's an opponent other than above)

    Warmonger should degrade to 'Aggressive' in later years, just so you know they are keeping their eyes on you.
     
  12. Miravlix

    Miravlix King

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    645
    *sighs*

    They don't hate you for being a warmonger, that the SINGLE MOST misunderstood element of Civ V diplomacy.

    Warmongering doesn't come into play on it's own, you need to be doing badly in diplomacy to begin with before the AI checks if warmongering should make it hate you even more.

    I never have trouble with warring and getting the entire world to hate me. Right now I'm friend with 15 out of 16 nations and warring the last, even if I wipe India from the map in this war, I'm still going to be friends with most nations, even if I get warmongering score.
     
  13. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    486
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    I spoke of a similar idea on this website. When the World Congress is up, everybody discusses what to do with the warmongers, whether it's embargo, war, denouncements... so later in the game it's harder to be brutal.
     
  14. Magean

    Magean Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2009
    Messages:
    474
    You're right, it's easy to have a lot of friends, and perhaps to be friend with everybody. As such, you can, especially in the late game, make so that on guy is hated by everybody (trigger a denunciation cascade) and them take on him.

    But all of that (making lots of friends, isolating your opponent...) takes time. You can't do it if you play an early aggression civ.

    But... As lot of people have pointed out, early warmongering is the big problem. Because of the way warmongering is calculated, those early conquests bring you ridiculous number of warmongering points. Much more than late game wars.

    And once everybody hates you, it's very difficult to make declaration of friendship.

    Also, when you say :
    , well I think that's not true. I think the impact of warmongering is simply hidden, not shown in the tooltip. I remember, I had two friends (with DoF and such). I went to war quite early in the game, took a few cities. A bit later, these two buddies refused to renew the DoF (while normally they agree). Very soon after that, they started hating me. So I think they took my warmongering into account and refused for this reason to renew our friendship.
     

Share This Page