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AI Cheating

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by allsirgarnet, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. phoenix_sprite

    phoenix_sprite King

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    Resorting to trolling because you`ve been proven wrong? :goodjob:

    Moderator Action: Flaming - warned
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  2. naterator

    naterator Bravely running away

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    Haven't dipped into that map yet (finally downloaded BUG a few days ago). I was experiencing a bit of ennui recently and tried an unconventional game to get out of it. huge terra map, always war, raging barbs, WB'd myself into a new world start and was going to see how i stood up when the AI found me. But befor first contact, i downloaded the BUG mod so i scrapped it and now i'm right back in a groove with regular games.

    And as for allsirgarnet, i know i'm beating a dead horse here, but an offhand remark by a programmer who is quoting (paraphrasing?) soren is trumped by actual game code. The game doesn't call soren and ask him what to do, it checks the code. If you don't believe it, again, try editing the code yourself. You'll certainly notice the change.

    Like i said before, if it's strictly an enjoyment issue regarding AI advantages, there is a menu setting to reduce those advantages.

    Also, if you don't want to hear from fanatical players of civilization, maybe avoid posting at the Civilization Fanatics Forum. It's not that you're not welcome here, it's just strange behavior. You come here to break news 20 months after it is published and expect the fanatics not to know? Or for this information to even be relevant anymore? That's fine, no problem, you're trying to help. We've all been wrong before. But to say that the game code, not you, is wrong (I mean, PieceOfMind even posted the code, come on!) because you read something where a guy said that he heard someone else say there's no war weariness...

    Essentially, you implicitly admit that people here are more knowledgeable than you about the subject by dubbing us to be obsessed; whereas you are just a casual fan. But then you assume that your old thirdhand knowledge is somehow a relevation...
     
  3. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Yeah, what makes it easy about chess is that there are relatively very few choices to be made - with sufficient computing power you can brute-force a long way forward in the game. In Civ4 that would be totally impossible, it still hasn't been done for Go, which, while having a lot of choices, admittedly doesn't have quite as many as Civ4.

    It would be interesting though to take tens of thousands of game playthroughs by the most skilled players and use machine learning methods to teach a computer how to play. Don't know if even tens of thousands would be enough though :crazyeye: I guess it would depend on the algorithms used (and you'd need skilled players even for programming those).
     
  4. naterator

    naterator Bravely running away

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    Ya, the variations possible in CIV are mind bottling (sic). And with resources like this forum where the best (not me, but you all know the guys...) get together to find and hammer the AI at any weaknesses they find, i tend to doubt any program could keep up.
     
  5. allsirgarnet

    allsirgarnet Chieftain

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    Handicaps...

    A handicap, as for example in horse racing, is a stated specific penalty that a competitor carries. The penalty is specifically defined before the competition so that those taking part, betting or just watching know exactly how the competition or race is being influenced or balanced.

    Thats not what Civ does.

    Blatant misinformation...

    Taken from statements made by programmers who worked in Civ 4 itself. The fact that they were proved false just underlines the general theme of my later replies.

    Argument...

    I'm not here for an argument, unlike many it seems.

    Life and other things...

    No matter how you spin it, this forum like vitually every other on the net has its fair share of fetishists. Thats nothing to do with me being right or wrong, its just how things are. ;)

    Profile...

    Members profiles are statements by members of who they are or rather how they define themselves... or possibly how they wish to be viewed or defined by other members. Now one of those who replied and criticised me many times has a profile in which virtually the only info listed is how they faired against/played against the game Civ 4.

    That mate is their own statement or definition for us... the other members to view and contemplate. Defining oneself by how you scored or played against a game gives a clue to how a member views themselves, or rather how they wish to be viewed by other members.

    Defining oneself against or being obsessed with one thing (such as Civ) is dangerous and is... a fetish. I see it here and in for LOTRO (which I enjoy). In the latter though theres no attempt to hide it as many find relief in their fetish or obsession to remove themselves from the problems of the real world. That I can understand ans sympathise with directly.

    Here though we are dealing with a strategy game, no more and no less. Why people play it varies greatly. My gripe (if I need one) is when people try to fool others as to why they play. If one is obsessed, then be upfront and place yourself from that viewpoint.

    at least my life doesn't revolve around the game

    No it doesnt, but gaming is a great hobby of mine that has been life long. The problem is when you cross the line and a certain game or hobby comes to define a person... by which I mean its all they are. THAT mate is very unhealthy and not good for anyone.

    Civ 4 is just a game and it, those who play it (like me) and those who created it are up for both criticism and praise... where and when persons think either is due.

    ASG
     
  6. allsirgarnet

    allsirgarnet Chieftain

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    Have you nothing worthwhile to say?
     
  7. phoenix_sprite

    phoenix_sprite King

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    Give me a while, I'll come up with something new and exciting.

    No, not really but seeing you defend invalid points with such faith is truly entertaining.
     
  8. stuttrboy

    stuttrboy Warlord

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    Trolling troll is trolling, please don't feed it.
     
  9. phoenix_sprite

    phoenix_sprite King

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    onomnom
     
  10. ori

    ori Repair Guy Retired Moderator

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  11. jauggy

    jauggy Warlord

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  12. naterator

    naterator Bravely running away

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    Yes, in fact, everything except the map/unit knowledge is easily fixable in the handicap infos. just open the file and do searches for:
    Animal
    Barbarian
    Supply
    upgrade
    Inflation
    Weariness

    and change the numbers to match the AI to the Human.

    Edit -- maybe this will help you understand at least one of the AI visibility "cheats" and why it is needed, it surely helped me. (As rolo suggested in the "quick answers / newbie questions" thread, start at post 49, with #58 providing alot of good info)
     
  13. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    From the OP's Article:
    This means that if you don't like the AI that a programmer created (including thinking it "cheats", which it may need to do to compete against the "smarter" human-player.), you can change it. All you need to do is learn C++ and the Civ 4 SDK (as many have done already)
     
  14. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Good luck in doing that, though. I have just glanced it but the AI code is something like 50 000 LoC and intertwined with a lot of modules ;)
     
  15. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    But not impossible. As I said, some have done it, albeit some teams of people in many cases.
     
  16. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    I still have my "Age of Empires" CD. There's always that to fall back on. :)
     
  17. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    The topic seems to have changed quickly. You seem to be implying that a lot of people around here are fetishists. I think that word is usually reserved for something slightly different. Certainly a lot of people round here could be described as having addictive tendencies (I'm probably one of them) but it's no fetish. Most of the people on the forums who look the most obsessed spend the most time on the forum and least time playing the game. Are they addicted to be social people? Is that even called an addiction? ;)

    I agree with you that placing too much emphasis on a virtual character or identity and virtual achievements (as happens in MMOs like WoW in particular) can be damaging long-term, but it amazes me you can make a connection from a profile and conclude an obsession exists.

    Anyway, it's nice to see you wanting to discuss the AI in the game because that's something a lot of would offer our input for. It was only the preaching earlier on that got on the noses of the civfanatics. ;)
     
  18. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    i don't know why but OP seems to me like some of those that multiplay on Gamespy (or the like) saying that they're the best of the best, and is killed before 1AD by several persons which fight each other for rights to annex his lands
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    Well, even the best players out there would struggle if someone decides to choke or rush from either side...especially if one guy suicides on a border city while the other chokes.

    Been on both ends of that kind of situation :/.
     
  20. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    mean'd as in fighting for the rights to annex him, more than fighting to annex him
     

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