AI, City Governor and multiple production

[arbor]

With multiple production, you are really handicaped If you use city governors. They only fill the list with ONE Element. But in the latter game you usually build 1 to 10 buildings a turn. Especially the AI is handycaped, too.

So, would it be possibe, that the Governor puts that much items in the list to use the whole production? This would also help debugging.

Besides, multiple production and multiple research should be ON by default (or rather, add an option "No multiple X"). Is this possible?

 

[Koshling]

With multiple production, you are really handicaped If you use city governors. They only fill the list with ONE Element. But in the latter game you usually build 1 to 10 buildings a turn. Especially the AI is handycaped, too.

So, would it be possibe, that the Governor puts that much items in the list to use the whole production? This would also help debugging.

Besides, multiple production and multiple research should be ON by default (or rather, add an option "No multiple X"). Is this possible?

It doesn't queue in advance, but it DOES re-choose and build WITHIN the turn when multi-production is on and a build completes (at least the AI does - I'm not 100% certain about the govenor), so it's handling it fine- you just can't see it in the UI.

 

[strategyonly]

It doesn't queue in advance, but it DOES re-choose and build WITHIN the turn when multi-production is on and a build completes (at least the AI does - I'm not 100% certain about the govenor), so it's handling it fine- you just can't see it in the UI.

I agree, the NEW AI Governor is waaaay better than any other mod has, with Koshlings expertise, he has made it the best i have ever seen, and very useful at certain times of gameplay, i dont use it all the time, but when the city is at POP 1, it really is the best, especially if you use the avoid growth (as long as you are under the city limits, that is) you can change production time by some of the times by 1/2 when doing so,, just a little tip is all, but it doesnt work all the time.

 

[arbor]

Are you sure the AI city governor buildet more than 1 building in multiple production in version 22.1?
I didn't play 23 enough to test.

Ah, is it actually fixed that your manually made queue gets overridden when you select a different priority (production, food, commerce) for the AI city governor?

 

[Koshling]

Are you sure the AI city governor buildet more than 1 building in multiple production in version 22.1?
I didn't play 23 enough to test.

Ah, is it actually fixed that your manually made queue gets overridden when you select a different priority (production, food, commerce) for the AI city governor?

You need to have the 'use ai governors' option on (player option not game option) to use the semi intelligent govenor SO is talking about. Without that you get the original BTS 'artificial stupidity' govenor.

 

[strategyonly]

Here is what i was talking about, the 1st screenie is just with AI Production On, the 2nd one is WITH Avoid Growth On, see the difference

 

[arbor]

You need to have the 'use ai governors' option on (player option not game option) to use the semi intelligent govenor SO is talking about. Without that you get the original BTS 'artificial stupidity' govenor.

Of course, I had this option on.

Another thing. As C2C always benefits expansion, I expand (you can simply settle the whole work and will be the richest without revolutionary trouble(playing impossible custom game with revolutions); that's actually bad, and the AI does not know it it seems).
I like to set my cities (especially the new) to food+production. But the AI City Governor at one point is likely to produce nothing - although there ARE buildings benifiting these.

How can I attach savegames?

* It's very obvious if you filter your buildings for production/food
* Besides, this filter is buggy. Some buildings are not listed. Especially these giving an "actual" production/food bonus.
=> Could anybody fix these filters to filter regarding the actual yields?
=> especially, "bandits hideout" now is listed as an food bonus even after trade etc. researched. It seems, the AI City Governor has the same bug - try it out.

Besides, something with multiple production and this city governor is not working correctly - if I manually arrange the list, it produces more. The AI Governor ends up "City XXX cannot handle overflow anymore" wich is converted in gold that I don't need.

Furthermore, if I manually arrange the list
* first all production benefiting buildings from cheapest to most expensive
* then all food buildings

The city will just grow faster than any AI Governor managed city will do. But it's sooooooo simple! If you could make a 3rd type of governor just doing this and than falling back to another governor's selection algorithm ...

And a global option like manage cities < size 20 to expand only (use this very simple procution queue create approach from above) .

Another thing, if you priorize food/production, the AI City Governor will not choose anything! How to avoid this? If I choose all priorities, still some cool buildings remain unbuilt - I guess because it filters the same way the like the building filters do, not taking in count indirect/actual benefits. But if I choose NO priority, it builds units, but that NOT what I want ...

Finally, if it is possible that the Governor fills the production queue with several items at once - Would be so great! First for debugging - it's difficuilt to keep track of it's behavior - and second, to see whether you can actually trust it. And finally, it might fill in as much items as the production permits to debug it's collaboration with multiple production.

The point is, in my last game, the AI is more stupid than ever. Having 3000 points to 400 now ... . Well, the AI Governor did not work for my cities well but as mentioned it is still hard to debug. (Apart from this the AI hesitates too much settling new cities.)

Thanks a lot for your great efforts, really looking forward what'll be next!

 

[Koshling]

Of course, I had this option on.

Another thing. As C2C always benefits expansion, I expand (you can simply settle the whole work and will be the richest without revolutionary trouble(playing impossible custom game with revolutions); that's actually bad, and the AI does not know it it seems).
I like to set my cities (especially the new) to food+production. But the AI City Governor at one point is likely to produce nothing - although there ARE buildings benifiting these.

How can I attach savegames?

* It's very obvious if you filter your buildings for production/food
* Besides, this filter is buggy. Some buildings are not listed. Especially these giving an "actual" production/food bonus.
=> Could anybody fix these filters to filter regarding the actual yields?
=> especially, "bandits hideout" now is listed as an food bonus even after trade etc. researched. It seems, the AI City Governor has the same bug - try it out.

Besides, something with multiple production and this city governor is not working correctly - if I manually arrange the list, it produces more. The AI Governor ends up "City XXX cannot handle overflow anymore" wich is converted in gold that I don't need.

Furthermore, if I manually arrange the list
* first all production benefiting buildings from cheapest to most expensive
* then all food buildings

The city will just grow faster than any AI Governor managed city will do. But it's sooooooo simple! If you could make a 3rd type of governor just doing this and than falling back to another governor's selection algorithm ...

And a global option like manage cities < size 20 to expand only (use this very simple procution queue create approach from above) .

Another thing, if you priorize food/production, the AI City Governor will not choose anything! How to avoid this? If I choose all priorities, still some cool buildings remain unbuilt - I guess because it filters the same way the like the building filters do, not taking in count indirect/actual benefits. But if I choose NO priority, it builds units, but that NOT what I want ...

Finally, if it is possible that the Governor fills the production queue with several items at once - Would be so great! First for debugging - it's difficuilt to keep track of it's behavior - and second, to see whether you can actually trust it. And finally, it might fill in as much items as the production permits to debug it's collaboration with multiple production.

The point is, in my last game, the AI is more stupid than ever. Having 3000 points to 400 now ... . Well, the AI Governor did not work for my cities well but as mentioned it is still hard to debug. (Apart from this the AI hesitates too much settling new cities.)

Thanks a lot for your great efforts, really looking forward what'll be next!

Attach a save game (as a ZIP is easiest usually if it's large) that illustrates if you can please. The thing that is sounding alarms for me is the statement that if you don't select anything the governor builds units. Only the default governor does this - it should NEVER happen if you have the new player option to use the AI version instead of the default version, so that indicates something weird is going on.

 

[arbor]

... the governor builds units. Only the default governor does this - it should NEVER happen if you have the new player option to use the AI version instead of the default version, so that indicates something weird is going on.

Now I'm confused. The vanilla BTS Governor never did actually build units.

So, in C2C you changed the default ("non AI") Governor to build units (without priority)- while the AI one won't?

Yesterday I removed my My Games/Beyond the sword folder and this fixed some issues with wrongly displayed outcomes. Besides, It changed some things - like Woodsman II not givin double movement in Forest anymore - but after some time/reload it gave this bonus again while it disappeared again after some restart etc. Might be that there is some concurrency issue with vanilla Woodsman promotion redefine?

However, the governor remained same.

How long does it actually take for this option to take effekt? Do I have to start a new game or even do something more?

Did C2C purposely change the default Governor?
If so, where can I confirm in-game, that my cities use the AI governor? (in case there is some trouble about this option's immediate effect)

Here the save game I wanted to attach the other day, check Brisbane (however, still had the old custom BTS folder). The production queue is likely to remain empty.

Certain is, that the governor does not take in count the actual yields. Besides, frequently it does not choose the cheapest version of a building (3 buildings providing production +1 - it should choose the cheapest).

 

[Koshling]

Now I'm confused. The vanilla BTS Governor never did actually build units.

So, in C2C you changed the default ("non AI") Governor to build units (without priority)- while the AI one won't?

Yesterday I removed my My Games/Beyond the sword folder and this fixed some issues with wrongly displayed outcomes. Besides, It changed some things - like Woodsman II not givin double movement in Forest anymore - but after some time/reload it gave this bonus again while it disappeared again after some restart etc. Might be that there is some concurrency issue with vanilla Woodsman promotion redefine?

However, the governor remained same.

How long does it actually take for this option to take effekt? Do I have to start a new game or even do something more?

Did C2C purposely change the default Governor?
If so, where can I confirm in-game, that my cities use the AI governor? (in case there is some trouble about this option's immediate effect)

Here the save game I wanted to attach the other day, check Brisbane (however, still had the old custom BTS folder). The production queue is likely to remain empty.

Certain is, that the governor does not take in count the actual yields. Besides, frequently it does not choose the cheapest version of a building (3 buildings providing production +1 - it should choose the cheapest).

I'll check out the save when I can (next couple of days for sure). I am pretty sure you are correct that building evaluation (generally) doesn't take acount of bonuses from techs, so I'll see what I can do to fix that also.

 

[arbor]

Here I attach two more save games just to prove with more games that the AI City Governor is likely to put nothing to the production queue.
It's really a pitty because with these map sizes you really depend on them .

 

[Koshling]

Now I'm confused. The vanilla BTS Governor never did actually build units.

So, in C2C you changed the default ("non AI") Governor to build units (without priority)- while the AI one won't?

Yesterday I removed my My Games/Beyond the sword folder and this fixed some issues with wrongly displayed outcomes. Besides, It changed some things - like Woodsman II not givin double movement in Forest anymore - but after some time/reload it gave this bonus again while it disappeared again after some restart etc. Might be that there is some concurrency issue with vanilla Woodsman promotion redefine?

However, the governor remained same.

How long does it actually take for this option to take effekt? Do I have to start a new game or even do something more?

Did C2C purposely change the default Governor?
If so, where can I confirm in-game, that my cities use the AI governor? (in case there is some trouble about this option's immediate effect)

Here the save game I wanted to attach the other day, check Brisbane (however, still had the old custom BTS folder). The production queue is likely to remain empty.

Certain is, that the governor does not take in count the actual yields. Besides, frequently it does not choose the cheapest version of a building (3 buildings providing production +1 - it should choose the cheapest).

I have slightly different assets than you, so I just want to check that some behaviour I am seeing matches what you are seeing. If I load the save game you provided (the first one) and go to Brisbane I an indeed see that it is doing nothing! However, if I click automate production off and immediately back on again it selects a building! I am not certain whether this is an artifact of the asset chnages (ie - I might have a different set of buildings available than you do) or a symptom of the bug. Could you try the same thing please (on that first save game) and see if it behaves the same way for you...

Edit - nvm - found it. It's a multi-production bug that screws up govenors and the AI. Basically once it's built onen building in a turn it cannot choose another until the next turn (and for govenors that happens after you end turn, so it appears as building nothing if it builds low cost stuff that completes before you get to look at the city again the next turn). Fix is on the SVN now. Please let me know if this solves the not-building-anything issue for you.

There is very likely still an issue with it not evaluating tech-triggered changes to buildings properly, but that will have to wait until I have moer time (after multi-maps are done)

 

[strategyonly]

It's a multi-production bug that screws up governors and the AI. Basically once it's built one building in a turn it cannot choose another until the next turn (and for governors that happens after you end turn, so it appears as building nothing if it builds low cost stuff that completes before you get to look at the city again the next turn). Fix is on the SVN now. Please let me know if this solves the not-building-anything issue for you.

There is very likely still an issue with it not evaluating tech-triggered changes to buildings properly, but that will have to wait until I have more time (after multi-maps are done)

So what your saying was it left one turn where it didnt build something, HUH/ glad you caught that.

Definitely Multi-Maps, more important than anything right now

 

[arbor]

Great, thanks a lot for your efforts!

Sorry, I was too busy with work recently and was a bit off.

I guess, the different assets were caused by the assets in the "My Games"-directory - I mean, did you try the other savegame?

Did you consider the idea to let the AI Governor fill the queue with more than one building?

 

[Koshling]

Did you consider the idea to let the AI Governor fill the queue with more than one building?

It doesn't need to. The AI loops over the process built, rechoose, see if builds immediately, rechoose, ...

Thus after a building completes it immediatly rechooses in that turn and processes that choice (and so on). That should work for the AI govenor also

 

[arbor]

It doesn't need to. The AI loops over the process built, rechoose, see if builds immediately, rechoose, ...

Thus after a building completes it immediatly rechooses in that turn and processes that choice (and so on). That should work for the AI govenor also

Well, I actually would like it for debugging and to increase my trust in governors. I do not always trust the AI's choices and it would enable me to do some quick fixing by re-ordering / inserting - instead of not using the governor at all.