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AI city management still breaking down in V38,5

Discussion in 'Bugs and Crashes' started by Tajo, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Tajo

    Tajo Chieftain

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    Sad news guys, this game breaking problem still very much persists.

    In my current deity game there is only Germany with few vassals left and over 30000 points, technologically going somewhere past nanotech era. Almost all of his cities are again painted with red and green faces and there are often periods of anarchy. My points are just over 8000 and I should have no business of winning at all but I can't lose the game if I just keep playing since the Germany is just crumbling away before me. Ai has totally broken down again and lost the control of it's cities.

    Hopefully you guys are able to fix this. Luckily it happened much later now but it is still there.
     
  2. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    AI dislikes building things - I suggested multiple times, that AI would always build buildings, that have cost of <20% - <50% total productivity of city, if these doesn't have bad properties attached with them.

    I guess its resource/property infrastructure is neglected too.
     
  3. Tajo

    Tajo Chieftain

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    On map, it seems to build quite well, although largely favouring irrigation which can be another cause for too rapid population expansion and thus crime and disease problems.

    Judging by the buildings of captured cities, AI seems very keen on building stuff that promote crime and disease like mercenary camps, smuggler shanties and multiple torture devices. Still it did all right far past the nanotech era until it suddenly broke down totally. Now its city screens are full of red, rioting angry citicens in my game. Shame that my first deity win doesn't feel like win at all.

    AI needs to be buffed in this area big time since it breaks down so badly that it is a definite game breaker.
     
  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Disease is almost non-factor in Nanotech era.
    As for crime only 3 crimes are unlocked in Nanotech and later eras.

    AI might not have things to build newest property control units.

    Upload save.

    Nanotech era to be played properly it needs space map scenario.
    On unrelated note AI doesn't care about space at all - it doesn't build NASA and/or its prereqs.

    This building carelessness gets worse in later eras.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  5. Tajo

    Tajo Chieftain

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    Non-factor to human player but I'm not so sure about this AI. Main problem seems to be the angry red citizens that draw the entire civilization into chaos. Interesting why the AI starts to neglegt them at some point.
     
  6. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    I think its from crime property - there is global unhappiness and global unhealthiness from crime/pollution, that comes with some crimes/pollutions.

    Bigger maps are more prone to it than smaller ones, as AI can get more cities.
     
  7. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    Given the danger and runaway nature of crime, I still think that the AI shouldn't build +crime buildings, or even delete +crime buildings once crime is above a certain threshold and is still worsening. Unfortunately, last time I brought it up, Thunderbrd rejected it strongly.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    This is probably due to there not being another stage of law enforcement unit to help strongly enough past this point. Surprisingly, this is pretty confirming that the current balance progression is working accurately. Truth is, there has not been anywhere near enough balance work and fleshing out of units to manage properties past this point for both the player and the AI. I'm not surprised by this. It's going to take further balance work directly on those eras and new unit designs at this point. Perfecting this era and beyond is quite a ways off in development unless we get some people working on this issue specifically. I think its quite a miraculous step forward for us in the last few years just to see someone get this far, playing a pretty good game the whole way.

    Note that it's not until far into the stratosphere of the design focus range that there is a problem, despite them taking full advantage of all those buildings. As a player, I build them - they are far too valuable not to and easily countered by another LE unit that costs much less than what they give, and then the gold isn't everything - it's also the units they enable the training of. Without them, the AI would never harass the player with them, which would mean only the player gets the benefit of these powerful strategies. That would mean an easy steamroll for the player who would quickly realize they don't actually have to arm themselves with the ability to defend themselves against foreign sent criminals.

    Thus it's very important that they DO build these buildings. And from an economic perspective, they are easily profitable so the more cities they can be built in, the better.
     
  9. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    No city wrecked by crime is profitable.
     
  10. tmv

    tmv Chieftain

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    For most of the game, you can easily counter the effects (roughly Classical - Information/Nano). If I understood you correctly, you would say the AI should demolish these buildings even if there are perfectly viable strategies to handle the problem - only if you are in an era where these counters are not available or if your city is so weak and isolated that you cannot build the counters or bring them to the city in case of units could the situation get that much beyond control. Even a high crime level might not be such a big problem if you can get crime control units from the rest of your civ to that city. That might be much better than destroying these buildings and losing their benefits.
     
  11. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    Sometimes handling crime fails. The causes may be complex but you only have to steer by result. There is the current crime level and the crime level it is drifting towards (which can be roughly calculated with the change in crime level from last turn). If both are above certain chosen thresholds it should trigger certain AI behaviors: In mild cases a temporary ban on building new +crime buildings, and in severe cases deletion of +crime buildings until the situation is back under control.

    In the mid-game, due to buildings that increase anarchy length for conquerors, a large (25+ pop) freshly conquered city may be in anarchy for over a hundred turns (snail speed). After conquest, some buildings are destroyed. Which can be all the minus-crime buildings and none of the +crime buildings if you have bad luck. If you don't delete any and all +crime buildings right away, or have a large stack of police units available standing by, the conquered city will be permanently ruined by crime by the time it gets out of anarchy, with many spawned criminals lurking. Deleting a handful of +crime buildings gives you a useful city once it comes out of anarchy instead of a permanent crime hole.

    My opinion is perhaps skewed by playing nightmare which has very strong crime.
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Crime is very easily managed at the Noble level AI's are always at for crime/population. You have a valid method of dealing with a temporary crime wave problem but if we try to program the AI to do this it would mean a fairly noticeable turn time delay as we do not currently have a stage where the AI ever evaluates its buildings for destruction and adding it would probably invite slowdowns. Maybe not terribly so and it might make them better players but until the unit types are insufficient due to there not being valuable enough available upgrades, the current method of calling for more LE units to address the problem has been effective enough to make it frustrating to try to send an AI city into a problem with crime with your own criminals. That's a pretty solid ability to maintain the nation's crime if you can't mess with them very easily that way.
     
  13. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    The AI has ways to deal with crime but for whatever reason, these ways sometimes fail. Like I said, steer by result. If the crime situation is clearly running out of hand it means the usual ways have failed. Then the AI needs another approach, and not building stuff that worsens the situation is common sense.
     
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Well, when the city is in trouble for reasons that are likely indicators of high crime, it's unlikely that a crime adding building would come up as something they should build unless somehow the code is inverted to its intent which is not impossible in places - keeping positive and negative directions correct and accurate can be some of the most difficult parts of working with coding in the realm of property interaction. Such a bug could exist but last I checked it APPEARED to be setup correctly. Since combating crime comes up as a higher priority than anything that would allow a crime adding building to come up in the queue, obviously they will at least find more important things to do, or should, to react to the problematic status first.
     
  15. flabbert

    flabbert Chieftain

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    The leading empire (except for me) has a serious crime issue, i am unsure when this happened, this game was started on a very recent svn.

    The AI also still seems to have some issues with creating roads near borders, and hunter AI still seems to have some issues with hunting animals that are stuck within my borders (particularly lizards and such)
     

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  16. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    Can I summarize this with: runaway crime problems shouldn't exist and therefore they don't exist?
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    No, just that when they do, there are already protocols to deal with it and building more crime producing buildings is not something they would likely be able to do at that point because they are instead dealing with more important things resulting from that crime. Either way, crime control buildings and/or units are ordered and on the way as soon as a crime problem emerges. And that is enough for a city to get on top of it's problems. Selling off buildings is a setback in production and the evaluation of whether the city should or not is a waste of turn times for those already complaining the game should move faster rather than slower.
     
  18. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Does AI have lithium?

    Indirectly its needed to make police mechs.

    By the way how does AI fares with resource/building supply chains?
    They get longer in later eras.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
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  19. Tajo

    Tajo Chieftain

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    Sure why not but AI must then also be able to deal with their effects. At some point, AI totally still loses the control of angry citizens and disease so there is plenty of work there still for sure.

    Edit:just now a German city turned over to me and it has 45 angry red faces and 130! unhealthy green faces. So yeah, there definitely is a game breaking problem still here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  20. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Depending on empire size (larger maps allows larger empires) global unhappiness and global unhealthiness may go out of control.
    There is no way to reduce pollution with units (source of global unhealthiness)
    As for crime criminals may spawn faster than police can catch them (source of global unhappiness)

    Disease is effectively obsoleted with some techs in Nanotech or Transhuman era.

    Can you upload save?
     

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