AI doesn't show capitulation option (even in red) before annihilation

[TBT]

Hello. I've searched the forum but haven't found the answer to my problem.
I'm playing with Incas and declared war on Tokugawa to make him my capitulated vassal. Tokugawa was master of the Koreans, so he had proper technology to vassalize himself to me ^^. But instead of this he fought to the last soldier and I annihilated him. What surprised me was lack of capitulation option on his side, all the time. I suppose that if he didn't want to capitulate and just preffered fighting like kamikaze, the option should be present during diplomacy (in red). Is it a bug or I miss something in the BTS mechanics?

Game details: noble level , 3.13 official patch + Bhruic. Default custom game rules options excepting "no tech brokering". Hemispheres, small, 12 civs.

 

[magicalsushi]

Can masters become vassals?

 

[TBT]

Can masters become vassals?

Good question. I don't know if it's rethorical one or not, but I've searched the forum for an answer and haven't found it. In the real world I see no reason why a master couldn't become someone else's vassal. Then the vassal of the conquered master would either become a vassal to the new master or gain independence. But I don't know how it is in the game. Any hints?

 

[Minmaster]

i've never seen master become another's vassal. however, koreans should've declared independence from the japanese when japanese land area or population went below the threshold. when a master gets beat badly, usually the vassal leaves its master, but maybe korea only had one or two cities itself.

 

[Pir Lan Tota]

so he had proper technology to vassalize himself to me

Might be a stupid question, but did you have the proper tech as well. Because if you dont, he cant vasselize, and that would explain why the option is not showing up....

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Yes, you can take as a vassal a civ that has vassals themselves. When they capitulate their vassals are released, and you remain at war with them. You are then free to vassalize those former vassals. I don't know the exact mechanics, but the AI has a false sense of the power ratings when they have vassals. They don't realize how truly screwed they are, and still think they have the upper hand over you, at least until they only have 1 or 2 cities left, and in your example, not even then.

 

[TBT]

Might be a stupid question, but did you have the proper tech as well. Because if you dont, he cant vasselize, and that would explain why the option is not showing up....

Yes, I'm the tech leader in my current game. I wanted to vassalize Japanese because my Sushi corporation needed resources the Japanese didn't want to sell and had plenty.

@ BalbanesBeoulve:
That would explain their behaviour. However I think the capitulation option should be shown at least in red because otherwise one may think something else is wrong, a bug or no tech available (that wasn't the case this time).

 

[GIO888]

Does the Japanese Civ ever offer vasselization? Maybe not.

I've often annihilated Toku and have to say now you guys mention it, he's never offered to capitulate. Like ever.

He certainly wouldn't in real life........

 

[TBT]

I've often annihilated Toku and have to say now you guys mention it, he's never offered to capitulate. Like ever.

He certainly wouldn't in real life........

Good point - maybe it's his samurai code of conduct. He would rather do harakiri instead of capitulation. I will observe him in my games to verify this theory.

 

[LegionSteve]

In my current game Toku is a capitulated vassal of the Napoleon AI, so he can capitulate sometimes.

 

[magicalsushi]

Good point - maybe it's his samurai code of conduct. He would rather do harakiri instead of capitulation. I will observe him in my games to verify this theory.

I don't think the leaders have any personality factors that prevent them from capitulating. I think they'll only agree to be vassalised voluntarily at certain levels of relations, and perhaps there are some who will never agree to be vassalised voluntarily, but I'm pretty certain that's not the case for capitulation. This is a contrast to other types of agreement, such as permenant alliances, which some leaders will simply never, ever agree to, under any circumstances (in fact, I believe Tokugawa is one of these; I know for a fact that it's true for Alexander). It doesn't matter how much the AI Alexander likes you, if you ask for a PA, he will always say he doesn't like you enough. It is impossible for him to agree to a PA with anyone.

For capitulation though, every single AI leader is capable of doing it, regardless of their personality. There might be factors which make some of them more reluctant than others, but none of them have been programmed to refuse in all possible circumstances.

 

[r_rolo1]

1) In 3.13 Masters can capitulate ( after freeing the vassals of course )

2) To a AI be willing to capitulate, you have to fulfill all this conditions:

- You need to have twice of his power

- You need to have twice of his size

- You need to be percieved as being winning the war

The winning the war part is the tricky bit... AI perceives the tilt of the war in casualties.... If you lost more soldiers in the war than him ( likely , even if because of the siege expending ), it will think that he's winning the war, regardless of him being holed in a polar island with a warrior or something like it

 

[Dida]

Won't the option be disabled if you have too many vassals?

 

[Supr49er]

Welcome TBT.

 

[LordKestrel]

You can not vassalize a civ that already has a vassal.

 

[Supr49er]

You can not vassalize a civ that already has a vassal.

True, but if you beat them down, their vassal will often renounce their overlords.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

You can not vassalize a civ that already has a vassal.

Yes you can.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Toku once asked me to become the master state when he was losing a war against Shaka.

 

[TBT]

Welcome TBT.

Welcome
This is a cool forum. I had been reading it a lot before registration and it solved a lot of my civ problems.

- You need to be percieved as being winning the war

The winning the war part is the tricky bit... AI perceives the tilt of the war in casualties.... If you lost more soldiers in the war than him ( likely , even if because of the siege expending ), it will think that he's winning the war, regardless of him being holed in a polar island with a warrior or something like it

I think this may explain the situation. I lost a lot more soldiers on attacking his capital, I think like 3-5 times more ^^.

 

[Still_Asleep]

1. Masters can capitulate, happens all the time in my 18 civ games. Upon becoming a Vassal, they will lose their own former Vassals and declare war on them as their new Master (you in this scenario) is still at war with them. Those civs will not be ready to capitulate immediately after this, they will have to lose their own war now.

2. If you dont fulfill any of the above conditions, but have discovered Vassalage and have Vassals turned on, the option will be in red, but it will definitely show up. If it doesnt show up there is another problem, cant figure it out though.