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AI double attacks

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by sershe, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. sershe

    sershe Chieftain

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    I've started seeing this since installing Rise and Fall; two neutrally disposed AIs, often across the map from me and sometimes each other, would simultaneously declare war on me (probably joint war? it's a formal war but neither denounces me beforehand) out of the blue.
    Then they would proceed to not do anything actually warlike (other than maybe sending some errant unit like a caravel that was exploring nearby).
    After a while some declare peace. Some insist on having reparations for peace until I send a couple units to kill some of theirs... otherwise they refuse to settle (without me paying money) so this no-contact war can continue forever.

    What gives? I've never seen this before and haven't seen any reports of this but for me it happens reliably 3+ times in a long game.
     
  2. Xur

    Xur Chieftain

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    I think everyone hates joint war mechanics - it's broken or never worked.
     
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  3. Mozzington

    Mozzington Chieftain

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    It is annoying I agree. It’s unlike in civ4 when you heard that horn of war sound you knew stuff was about to go down.
    That sound always made me sit-up and take note. Now I couldn’t care less.
     
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  4. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Chieftain

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    I haven't encountered this. I've only seen joint wars are initiated by an AI that dislikes you, usually a neighbour, dragging in some neutral/distant AI who will always accept peace after 10 turns.


    I'm not sure if everyone hates it, but I can say that I haven't heard anybody who likes it, or can give a good explanation for how it makes the game more enjoyable.

    As a replacement for the Civ 5 mechanism where you bribe an AI to attack another, the joint war mechanism is better at limiting abuse by human players, but that's not a good enough reason for it's existence. I expect the developers thought it would make diplomacy more interesting as you (and the AI) try to negotiate to bring allies on your side of a war, but it's really not working, for these (and possibly more) reasons:
    • It only works before the war starts, so only attackers can bribe somebody to join them, not defenders.
    • The bribed party typically only breaks off economic relations. Which in itself is fine, but it adds very little military impact. A City State is far more likely to throw it's units against your enemy than a joint war partner.
    • It's completely divorced from the new alliance system, adding to the list of stand alone systems that don't integrate with each other.
     
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  5. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    I encountered this only occasionally, both in the vanilla game and in R&F, until the most recent large patch. Both games I've played since then have been marred by constant joint wars instigated by AIs whose agendas I've been satisfying fully, and who like me (no warmongering on my part, or any other negative modifiers). In my last completed game, I had no fewer than three pairs of AI with whom I was trapped in an endless cycle of joint war-peace-joint war-peace. The only way to stop it was to never sign peace, and lose the possibility of trading/building an alliance as a result.

    I have to be honest, it's getting to the point where as much as I like R&F in other respects, I'll have to set it aside until they take another look at this. It's incredibly frustrating.
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It works just fine... I in fact love it! It is very important to me... because I use it.

    @sershe it is primarily used as a diplomatic tool to get friendly with another civ. I mean 2 civs declaring war on you from the other side of the world does not cause harm to you.
    One of these 2 civs will dislike you enough to decide to declare war but will often fail in its bid to get a partner for a while, you are just not seeing what is happening behind the scenes
    I have had a look at about 10 of my own joint wars and this is always the case. If you zipped up the logs and attacked I could have a look and tell you exactly what happened.
    There is an example of this in my signature links under joint wars, have a look.
    If someone is doubtful then feel free to attach the logs, just remember logs are zeroes whenever you reopen the civ software (not each game inside it)

    Very few players use joint wars themselves but those that get it, use it. It gives you +5 diplomacy points with a civ that degrade 1 point every 20 turns so is a very powerful diplomatic modifier. The strongest bribe you can give a civ gets +10 diplomacy but degrades 1 point per turn, this is far stronger in the long run. Bribes for quick attempts at things, joint wars to strengthen long term relationships.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Chieftain

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    Getting a slowly-degrading positive diplomatic modifier for fighting alongside a partner against a common enemy is nice and makes sense (or at least would make sense if there was actual fighting involved).

    The Joint War mechanism by which it's currently obtained is, to my mind, quite flawed. On the list of things about Civ 6 that could use improvement, though, it's well down my list. I do think the game would be better without it. I think the diplo bonus for fighting a common enemy would be better moved to the alliance system. I think the ability to convince someone to join a war (as attacker or defender) could be dropped completed or tied to the alliance system. But if they never touched Joint Wars and dealt with other issues (*cough* airforce *cough*) that'd be okay with me.
     
  8. Hactar

    Hactar Chieftain

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    Just finished my first first R&F game (Mac user lol) and the joint wars came in handy. My neighbour and a far off civ declared on me. My Suzerain city states captured and razed all of Kongo’s cities except two. He offered his second last city on the other side of his capital in the peace deal. Was able to flip the capital with loyalty to wipe him out :D So they can be fun too.
     
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  9. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I like always joint war. It keeps good diplomacy and other CBs are useless. Except the new Golden Age one.
     
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  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Sadly the alliance system comes way too late, it’s the early diplomacy where it really helps, put it in alliances and you might as well remove it. In fact to me I loved the old alliance system and dislike the new and would be happy throwing that out and keeping joint wars. We all differ.
     
  11. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Chieftain

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    There are different types of war. There are shooting wars and sometimes there are trade wars. Joint War covers both, because we don't have embargos anymore. Sometimes you just want to bust up too cozy of a trade relationship. Convince Gorgo to pick a fight with someone and she will likely be tied up in war for the rest of the game, easy pickings and no threat.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Cleo denounces you for having a small army and you cannot reach her but Cyrus is close enough. Joint war with Cyrus against Cleo, her army drops in size and starts liking you amd hating Cyrus who is also loosing troops, then joint war with Cleo against Cyrus who is now weak and take most his cities while being good friends with Cleo.

    Use their agendas as well, understand what agendas are early and what are late, look at how the civs think about each other early to stop them forming unfavourable packs. Manipulate friend and foe to suit you plan.

    Of course the game allows you to ignore all this which means war gamers can have fun without it and people who enjoy playing different games can also have fun. I personally love it.
     
  13. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Chieftain

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    The random joint war declarations from civs who don't even dislike me are very irritating and I will probably mod them out next game.

    Although I've been saying that for weeks and I keep forgetting... mostly because they don't happen until midgame and later
     
  14. earlc

    earlc Chieftain

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    The two main issues with Joint War concern how the AI uses it. One, they rarely do anything but joint war, which is repetitive and unrealistic. Two, the threshold for a friendly AI civ declaring war on you is too low, and appears to disregard leader personality/agendas, which is gamey and immersion-breaking. It's one of the few things that still irritates me about the game.
     
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  15. historix69

    historix69 Chieftain

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    I think the "joint wars" might be "coincidental random DoWs". When I play with 30 AI civs, it is normal to have 2 DoWs every 10-15 turns. When a civ denounces you, the chance is higher that other civs denounce, too, and after a few turns may declare war. Most of those wars are simply killing scout units since nations are too far away, and after the minimum number of turns you can usually make a white peace.
     
  16. Bitterman

    Bitterman Chieftain

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    The problem is this is not how it was supossed to be used.

    Declaring two succesive joint wars reverting partners and enemies from the other side of the world have zero sense and even can be considered an exploit, at least from my point of view, since the AI can hardly make use of it, even if it was perfectly programmed and also get 0 benefit for it.

    Like other user has already stated, joint wars only benefit the attackers, and not the defenders. In fact you could (should from a gamey point of view) declare joint wars when possible. Assuming the defender is not a warmonger civ, he is in an unfair disadvantage. It is also a little bit strange declaring joint wars with someone you are not allied with.

    The bribe system allowed for a much more balanced situations. You could bribe one or more than one civ to help you and so could the defenders. And the AI would actually get something tangible in exchange for their militar effort.

    Right now you are declaring joint wars to improve your relations, wich is stupid I think (not on your part, but on the game's part). Your should be able to declare a joint war as a result/reward for your diplomatic efforts with that civ, and no the other way around.
     
  17. Sherlock

    Sherlock Just one more turn...

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    Yeah, I've had the 'double AI DOW' happen to me. One AI had an army and attacked and the other did nothing.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I did not know you had inside information from Firaxis. Have you not considered that often there is not only one right view of something in this world?

    and this is why it was designed this way, otherwise they would have not point in a whopping 5 with such a long degradation. The evidence is right in front of you and you boldly say “this is not how it was supposed to be used”

    The proof is in the design, you don’t have to like it and you don’t have to use is but do not BS about it not being their intention, you could have at least considered it to be true.
     
  19. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    I can't speak to your experience but for me it's pretty obvious when it's a joint war and definitely not a coincidental random DoW:
    - The war declared is a "formal war", which you can only declare if you've denounced someone or as part of a joint war.
    - When it happens, most of the time neither Civ has denounced me... ever.
    - After a couple of eras, you'll notice it's the same pairs of AIs that keep declaring war exactly one after the other. This is consistent with what Victoria says above about the joint war mechanic strengthening diplomatic relationships, but it happens way too often and usually results in no actual military action being taken against me: it just means that I lose potential allies and friends.
     
  20. Bitterman

    Bitterman Chieftain

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    First of all, there is no need to get so agressive, so calm down. I said more than once it was just my point of view but whatever floats your boat.

    Second, you ignored more than half of what I said at your convenience. How is the AI supossed to take advantage of this system if is designed to be used like you say? Are you aware that you example was a cherrypicking of a very particular situation that, on top of it, involves agendas? Joint war, as its name says, is to wage wars. There needs to be a drawback on it, it can't be something you just systematically pick and then sit your ass on your continent without doing nothing, while two other players (AI or not) destroy themselves in the other corner of the world. And then repeat with the same players changing roles. This is just idiotic, almost comical. There needs to be consequences on your decisions.

    I know you may think this is very strategic because diplomacy and all but is not. The AI is just dumb. In its current state it simply can't manage this kind of thing. Ideally a joint war should only be possible if BOTH players have an interest in said war, i.e. they are both close to their common enemy or have the means to get close to actually do something. And of course if they are both at least declared friends (otherwise is just bribing).

    This joint war system was obviusly implemented to prevent human players from bribing everyone in the game to do whatever they wanted, but in its current state fails. Posts like this (and this is not the only one) are the proof. AI's just trade with this as if was another item, like iron or horses, not considering the implications of what it really is. Maybe if they substantially increased the price of bribing, that system could be implemented along with the joint war. That way would really make sense for a player to declare war on someone in exchange of some resources that a third one would offer to him.

    And to finish: The fact that joint war grants such a strong diplomatic bonus is MAYBE because it was designed as something very relevant to do. You know, great risks carry great rewards. Right know you have a mechanic that implies no risk at all with one of the best diplo modifiers in the game.
     
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