AI Favouritism

magicalsushi

Prince
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(or Favoritism if you're American)

This subject in general has been raised countless times, but I've generally dismissed it as I've never seen genuinely egregious examples in my games until now. I'm talking about when the AI treat each other far better than they'd ever consider treating the human player.

In my current game, I'm fighting an earlyish (extremely early by my standards; late by anyone else's) war against Lincoln, who only had access to iron. Naturally, I pillaged the iron ASAP. Next turn, he's churning out spearmen to kill my precious Keshiks. His neighbour Isabella is selling it to him for 1 gpt.

Oh come on, 1 gpt! That's a complete joke. It's not even "could you spare us this", it's an actual trade. If I recall correctly, she's pleased with him, barely. She might even be cautious. I can't imagine any AI giving me a strategic resource for 1 gpt even if they were friendly with me. In fact, I can't imagine an AI giving me so much as a health resource for 1 gpt.

If you ask "could you spare us this?", there's a small chance you'll get a resource for free if they're feeling generous, but the second you add something from your side (1 gpt, for example), suddenly they go into trade mode and forget that they'd be willing to offer something out of goodwill. As such, Isabella presumably really felt that receiving 1 gpt for her copper was a good deal. Of course, if I, the human player, want to buy a strategic resource from an AI, the price is four or five resources plus some gold, on the rare occasions that they'll even consider selling the resource to me in the first place.

Yeah, that's fair.
 
The thing is, if a human had done this, you would not be complaining.

Perhaps Isabella thought that it would be better for her if she supplied her ally with some proxy help for whatever she coudl get.

That said, I don't mind. The AI shouldn't roll over, it should choose human-like plans. Isn't that the goal?
 
If it is in Isabella's interests to prop up Lincoln, rather then opposing you herself, then you would actually say it is good play.

If not then yes it's a bit much!
 
Screenshot? That seems a bit excessive, and how exactly do you know the AI is getting the resource for 1 gpt? Debug mode?

Doesn't it tell you the terms of trade on the diplomacy screen? You've made me unsure now though. I'm pretty sure there's no gold (as in the actual resource) anywhere near Lincoln's land, so I'm not mixing it up with that; I could swear it was 1 gpt. I was spitting teeth when I saw it.

I'd better check. It's been over a week since I had a chance to play. I won't be able to check until Monday at the earliest though, and realistically not until...ugh...probably the following weekend. Ouch, that's depressing.

I probably should've waited till then before starting this thread, but the injustice of it is *still* bugging me. ;)
 
The thing is, if a human had done this, you would not be complaining.

Perhaps Isabella thought that it would be better for her if she supplied her ally with some proxy help for whatever she coudl get.

That said, I don't mind. The AI shouldn't roll over, it should choose human-like plans. Isn't that the goal?

If it is in Isabella's interests to prop up Lincoln, rather then opposing you herself, then you would actually say it is good play.

If not then yes it's a bit much!

It's in her interests insofar as Lincoln shares her religion. Strategically, it's only vaguely sensible. She's at war with her neighbour Montezuma, but the copper must be spare because I don't think the AI are allowed to sell each other non-surplus resources (they're not allowed to sell them to the human, so if I'm wrong, it's yet more unfairness!). Lincoln is one of her other neighbours, and I'm on the other side of him. She doesn't like me because I wouldn't help her fight Montezuma. In fairness to her, I intend to take her on after I'm done with Lincoln, and selling him copper has drastically slowed me down. However, I'm far from convinced that the AI are programmed to think on this level. If better AI has made it so, then I'm impressed - just so long as the AI would treat me in a similar way if I were in Lincoln's position. I rather doubt it.

I think she's barely even pleased with Lincoln; she had some serious negative hidden modifers prior to him adopting Hinduism (almost everyone on the planet was annoyed with him while at +0 visible relations), and she hadn't built up a staggeringly huge shared religion bonus when she sold him the copper. She may even have been cautious with him.

I didn't take a screenshot; I really should have done. I think I have a saved game I could backtrack to (ahem :blush: ) when I eventually get the time. I play with the game in windowed mode so I can use a music player and IM, and it won't let me take screenshots unless I restart it in full screen mode. Also, I've skimmed so many threads along similar lines to this before that I didn't think it was unprecedented. The only time I've ever bothered to take a screenshot was when the tech page on the foreign advisor showed something that made no sense (I was going to post post it to the bugs forum), but even then I never bothered to upload it. The copper for 1 gpt thing was even less inspiring, but since people seem interested, I'll take a screenshot when I get a chance.
 
Doesn't it tell you the terms of trade on the diplomacy screen? You've made me unsure now though. I'm pretty sure there's no gold (as in the actual resource) anywhere near Lincoln's land, so I'm not mixing it up with that; I could swear it was 1 gpt. I was spitting teeth when I saw it.

I'd better check. It's been over a week since I had a chance to play. I won't be able to check until Monday at the earliest though, and realistically not until...ugh...probably the following weekend. Ouch, that's depressing.

I probably should've waited till then before starting this thread, but the injustice of it is *still* bugging me. ;)

I can certainly understand the frustration, When I am smart enough to pillage their strategic resource (not always unfortunately:sad: ) It always Hacks me off when they manage to get someone else to trade them the resource.

That said it sounds like it is probably 1 gold resource that he is trading her, which if she is at war she probably wants to up her happy cap.
But if you take a look at the save you should be able to tell for sure.
The bigger part of that is that I can never get the AI to give up a strategic resource for just a happy resource, so she must be really desperate for the gold to make her people happy if that is the trade.....
 
I agree with the OP. I've found the AI engaging in ridiculous trades like that quite often and it doesn't seem balanced.
 
I've become convinced that there needs to be either a massive patch for free, or an expansion pack concerning diplomacy in this game. The human player just gets buried into oblivion (unless you feel like caving into every little ridiculous demand they make.) They cut each other huge deals for techs. Huge deals for resources. And most importantly, huge deals for war.

Nothing grinds my gears more than having a friend "have nothing to gain" in going after a mutual enemy. But then getting bribed by the enemy who has less to offer than you, to go to war against you.

The thing that peeves me most is a penalty of "You declared war on our friend!" when you haven't declared war on anybody the entire game. Your friend declared war on me. Be pissy at him...
 
Are you sure it wasn't one of the things where Lincoln asked for copper for 1 gpt, instead of Isabella selling the copper for 1gpt? I know I get offers like that from the AI, and if Isabella was in need of cash she accepted? *shrug* That's the only other option I can think of.
 
Or Lincoln might have a bigger military in which case Isabela is more likely to cave to uneven trades (or even outright tribute demands).
 
I play with the game in windowed mode so I can use a music player and IM, and it won't let me take screenshots unless I restart it in full screen mode.

i play in windowed mode too. i can't bear to play any game that has only full-screen, i'd die without yahoo! anyway, i take screenshots by using the normal windows printscreen function, and then pasting it into irfanview. any program like MSPaint should work. maybe that'll help you out ;).
 
Okay, I've not done this before, but I *think* I've attached a screenshot.

Sure enough, I was wrong about the 1 gpt. It was copper for deer, which is a bit more reasonable...but not lot more reasonable. There's no way an AI would ever give me a strategic resource for a health resource. I agree that it was very *clever* of Isabella to do this, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good feature. If I were in Lincoln's position - that is, on good terms with Isabella, seperating her from someone she hates and being invaded by them - I very much doubt she'd give me copper for my deer.

I don't know where I got the 1 gpt idea from; sorry about that. I've even been playing under that misconception - if I'd realised Lincoln was sending her deer for the copper, I'd have pillaged it long ago. My bad. I guess I probably saw that it was deer, got enraged about it being so cheap, and then forgot the details and just remembered how cheap it was.

Anyway, the basic complaint still stands: while this was very sensible behaviour on Isabella's part, I suspect she wouldn't have acted the same way if a human had been in Lincoln's position, and if that's true, I don't find it very appealing.

(edit: note that this screenshot is from quite a while after she started the copper deal; I don't think she'd reached quite this insane level of shared religion at that point. She probably was 'pleased' anyway, but only barely - as you might guess from looking at some of the other leaders, most people in this game have massive hidden modifiers against Lincoln, Mansa and Gandhi...)
 

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Yep, me too. It's a very sensible thing to do. Thing is, I don't think she'd have done it if Lincoln were being played by a human. If I'm right, then the game's inexcusably biased. If I'm wrong, then this is a pretty awesome feature of the BtS AI.
 
I don't think the AI is smart enough to think, "This player looks like he could be trouble in 500 years, so I'll help his warring neighbor out now." If that were the case, wouldn't the AI fight wars a bit more intelligently?

I've seen plenty of examples of the AI helping itself out and I've come to my own conclusion that when you play Civ single player, it's really human vs AI regardless of how many civs the AI is divided into. The AI isn't very smart, so it overcomes this through the behind the scenes AI alliance and the in-game bonuses as you increase in level.
 
Or Lincoln might have a bigger military in which case Isabela is more likely to cave to uneven trades (or even outright tribute demands).

I have never seen AI cave in to an an uneven trade, you could ask for tribute for ask but in the case of tribute there is no exchange.

no the ai just favors other ai, I know for a fact that it cheats on diplo relations.
 
The AI will initiate uneven trades. It won't accept uneven trades initiated by the other party.

So, an AI may come to you, offering you copper for your deer, but if you renegotiate, then they consider the deal unfair and won't accept it. If you go to the AI to trade deer for copper, they will also not accept it.

The AI has a value for everything and it values copper higher than deer (most humans will do that too), but when it could use the deer, then it might trade its spare copper for the deer. Of course, the AI will ask for more if the other party has more to offer for the copper. And it won't accept the same trade when the other party initiates it.

I myself will sometimes do the same. If I have a spare copper and could very well use a health resource, then I might initiate that trade if nothing better is available.
 
There's no way an AI will give me a strategic resource for anything. Not even gold.

But if you don't give them that copper, they'll declare war on you. Or hate your guts for not helping them.
 
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